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Withfire powers require a to hit roll

if they require a to hit roll you must hit to move on.

If fires with the profile of 'assault' then it is assault and rolls 1 dice.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Banbaji wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Banbaji wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Considering that vast majority of people are actually rolling to hit for Psychic Shriek, they somehow manage to figure out how many dice to roll.

Speak for yourself. Not a single person I have ever played has rolled to hit for psychic shriek because the power doesn't require the hit to be successful to work. The rules for assault weapons specifically say to roll the number of dice indicated in the profile. No profile, no dice. This power has no resolution RAW; however, the effect goes off by simply targeting a unit, as stated in the power itself.

Firstly this is a fallacy, just because some people play it this way doesn't make it the objective right answer.

It is the same fallacy you used when saying the "vast majority" play it that way. I simply request that you change your claim to the vast majority of people you play with.

I simply request that you read what I say and not what someone else says and say it was me. I never claimed anyone did or didn't roll for it. That's not the debate, I don't discuss the rules using logical fallacies because they detract from the arguments.

My apologies for misattributing that quote to you, I shall try and be more careful in the future. I simply meant to show that the argument that the "vast majority" do something is not universally applicable. I should have just done what you did and directly stated that it was a logical fallacy.

blaktoof wrote:
If fires with the profile of 'assault' then it is assault and rolls 1 dice.

It'd be nice if people said this and supported it with a quote instead of just saying it.

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If fires with the profile of 'assault' then it is assault and rolls 1 dice.

It'd be nice if people said this and supported it with a quote instead of just saying it.

We all know there's no quote anywhere addressing this. That's why you informed us of your change to addressing RAI since there's a RAW hole in the rules.

Since you're rolling to hit (singular) with a (singular) witchfire power (which RAW is required to roll to hit [singular]), the most obvious and simplest conclusion would be that you roll a single d6 to hit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

It isnt being handwaved away - I am pointing out that you have no rule tying the two together. I dont have to prove a negative, you have to prove that to0hit has ANYTHING to do with rolling 3D6, comparing to Ld, and taking that many wounds. Where is the to-wound step, the next part of the shooting process? There isnt one? Then why are you stating this remains part of the shootnig process?

It is a nonsensical position to take.

I'm sure this is already addressed further in the thread, but isn't the "to wound" step the process of 3d6 vs LD?

I get the argument of RAW with no profile, but to say there is no shooting process due to no wound roll is odd to me, especially since you admit to wounds being allocated via the LD check... Personally, as much as I'd love to give my DoM a no check, targeted duplicate of his aura, or a zoan squad the ability to spot clean squads without any chance of failure (besides the usual DtW and Psyker check), I just don't feel GW was intending this, since the Primaris is supposed to be an "also ran" option.

Roll the d6 and call it a day.

That's my .02 anyway...

rigeld2 wrote:
The bolded is an assumption with no support.
If they wanted it to be used during the shooting phase they could make it a witchfire and simply forgot that witchfires must roll to hit.

That's ok, remove the bolded sentence from my post entirely and it does not functionally change the post. As a matter of fact, i'll edit that out.....

nosferatu1001 wrote:
How is it made up?
Find some rules. Please. The actual rules state it is an Assault weapon

The rules do not state this. They state witchfires count as "firing" an assault weapon. It does not say they are an assault weapon. A subtle yet important difference.

count as must be the same as "is".

Therefore using a witchfire is the same as firing an assault weapon.

Same as "firing an assault".. not the same as "an assault weapon".

And therefore subject to all the restrictions you would for "firing" an assault weapon. Like no running (or anything that substitutes for firing). You can assault after using a psychic power as compared to a Rapid Fire weapon, etc..

But a psychic power is a psychic power, not an assault weapon. There is no requirement for it to have a profile as discussed in this thread. Show me the profile for say Puppet Master, Crush, Hemorrhage, etc..

The rules on 69 clearly state that a roll to hit is required.

Fragile wrote:
Same as "firing an assault".. not the same as "an assault weapon".

And therefore subject to all the restrictions you would for "firing" an assault weapon. Like no running (or anything that substitutes for firing). You can assault after using a psychic power as compared to a Rapid Fire weapon, etc..

But a psychic power is a psychic power, not an assault weapon. There is no requirement for it to have a profile as discussed in this thread. Show me the profile for say Puppet Master, Crush, Hemorrhage, etc..

The rules on 69 clearly state that a roll to hit is required.

And how many dice do we roll to hit? Unlimited? bercause it does not tell us to roll a single dice to hit. It is like ""firing" an assault weapon" so it is Assault what 1, 3 10, 3000? where is this information?

You attempting to make a psychic power something it is not. It is a psychic power, unless it has a profile, you roll 1 die to hit. If it has a profile, then you roll however many listed in said profile.

Fragile wrote:
You attempting to make a psychic power something it is not. It is a psychic power, unless it has a profile, you roll 1 die to hit. If it has a profile, then you roll however many listed in said profile.

You of course have a rules citation for that, right?

Page 13 has already been covered there. Without permission to fire more, it defaults to 1.

Fragile wrote:
Page 13 has already been covered there. Without permission to fire more, it defaults to 1.

Which is more specific - page 13 or page 51? When dealing with firing an Assault weapon of course.

Your stuck on psychic powers being Assault weapons. They are not. Manifesting a witchfire counts as FIRING an assault weapon. That means you can declare a charge, etc.

Psychic Shriek is a Witchfire power, and Witchfire rules require a roll To Hit. Psychic Shriek's power rules do not say it effects the unit automatically if successfully cast. If we didn't need To Hit with Witchfires, then Smite would just cause 4 Hits on a unit and we'd go straight to rolling To Wound.

Fragile wrote:
Your stuck on psychic powers being Assault weapons. They are not. Manifesting a witchfire counts as FIRING an assault weapon. That means you can declare a charge, etc.

Please explain how many dice you roll for a power that has Assault 4 listed in its profile. Do so without ever referencing page 51.

Well page 50 tells you what to do and 4 dice.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well page 50 tells you what to do and 4 dice.

So in the weapons section...

Well he asked a question. If he'd ask how do you determine if a shooting attack needs to roll to hit if it doesn't have a profile I'd refer to page 13 and then point to 50 to show that it doesn't get multiple to hit rolls.

To be honest I don't feel like there is a resolution for PS. It is agreed that PS is a witchfire and so needs to roll to hit but has no profile so this is impossible to do. Page 50/51 tells the attributes, that a psychic can charge after using the witchfire (due to being treated like assault). Page 13 gets into the specifics of "rolling to hit" but does not really aid in the argument because no profile was given and the fact that "most models only get to fire one shot" is simply referring to the fact that there are different kinds of weapons that shoot multiple shots. So, just agree with your opponent on the way that you'll play with PS and the case of profiles being existent (if they are auto-hits if no profile is present). If it's agreed to do a roll-to-hit make up the profile of:
Psychic Shriek
Range: 12"
S: -
AP: -
Type: (witchfire) Assault 1, banshee howl

Banshee howl: any unit hit suffers 3D6-LD wounds without armor or cover saves

-banshee howl wasn't necessary and could just put the effect on the bottom

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your stuck on psychic powers being Assault weapons. They are not. Manifesting a witchfire counts as FIRING an assault weapon. That means you can declare a charge, etc.

Please explain how many dice you roll for a power that has Assault 4 listed in its profile. Do so without ever referencing page 51.

You roll 4, because a specific profile for that power.. ( for example Smite) is listed. Therefore it has more than 1 shot, (pg 13).


Your really trying to stretch too hard. Lets reverse this. All assault weapons have a profile (pg 50). Please list the profile for Puppet master for me since you claim Psy Powers are assault weapons.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your stuck on psychic powers being Assault weapons. They are not. Manifesting a witchfire counts as FIRING an assault weapon. That means you can declare a charge, etc.

Please explain how many dice you roll for a power that has Assault 4 listed in its profile. Do so without ever referencing page 51.

You roll 4, because a specific profile for that power.. ( for example Smite) is listed. Therefore it has more than 1 shot, (pg 13).


Your really trying to stretch too hard. Lets reverse this. All assault weapons have a profile (pg 50). Please list the profile for Puppet master for me since you claim Psy Powers are assault weapons.

No, witchfire powers are assault weapons, page 69. But thanks for helping to prove my point - Puppet Master doesn't have a profile either.

I'd just like to point out that a hit does nothing in this case.

Without something to attach a hit or even a miss to, the To-hit roll is still pointless without a profile. Many things already have an effect on units they 'Hit' and if they had added wording to indicate that into PS it would allow the hit to amount to something. Barring that, the only default functionality a To- Hit Roll has is to create Hits and those are only good for turning into wounds. None of that happens without a profile as it is written making RAW broken in this case. RAI is unclear at best mostly due to the fact that in most cases GW is pretty good at letting us know if something happens on a Hit or a wound or whatever the trigger may be for something. Considering that they seem to know better then you leave it unspoken and that this says only 'Roll 3D5 and subtract the target's Leadership" without reference to any 'Hit' tell me it may indeed have been intended to work automatically... or they may have just forgotten to include the proper words 'a unit hit by PS must...' or perhaps they forgot to add 'hits automatically'... who knows?

RAW: Broken

RAI: Unknown

HYWPI: Ask your local gaming crew to house rule it.

Personally my judgement leans me towards 'on a hit...' It's a bit under powered IMO but auto-hit is OP.

Crimson - not just me, others as well. Perhaps you should look at how you write posts.

So, can anyone point to where the success on the to-hit roll(s) [that you cannot prove is only one dice, or 10, or 100, because page 13 doesnt actually state that for Assault weapons, and the assault weapon rules havent been fulfilled, which we know) is tied to rolling 3D6?

Failure to provide proof that success on the (undefined number of) rolls to hit is tied to rolling the 3D6, in the next post, is concession that no such rule exists.

Drop the number of shots argumebt - that is proven. It is undefined, because the rules for FIRING AN ASSAULT WEAPON state to look at the assault weapon profile for the number of shots. This is more specific than page 13.

I'm still waiting for citation of the rule that allows you to skip the rolling to hit part (irrespective of whether that affects something or not.)

As for number of shots, p.50 section on the matter pretty strongly indicates that the number needs to be provided only in the case of multiple shots.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your stuck on psychic powers being Assault weapons. They are not. Manifesting a witchfire counts as FIRING an assault weapon. That means you can declare a charge, etc.

Please explain how many dice you roll for a power that has Assault 4 listed in its profile. Do so without ever referencing page 51.

You roll 4, because a specific profile for that power.. ( for example Smite) is listed. Therefore it has more than 1 shot, (pg 13).


Your really trying to stretch too hard. Lets reverse this. All assault weapons have a profile (pg 50). Please list the profile for Puppet master for me since you claim Psy Powers are assault weapons.

No, witchfire powers are assault weapons, page 69. But thanks for helping to prove my point - Puppet Master doesn't have a profile either.

Failure to provide a profile proves they are not. All assault weapons have a profile. Puppet master, hemorrhage, crush do not, therefore they cannot be assault weapons. Your own argument proves such.

They are treated as firing an assault weapon, therefore disallowing a run or turbo boost, however you can declare a charge.

They are required to roll a to hit roll and should a 6 be rolled, they would be a precision hit. However, the odds of this occurring and actually mattering are very low. About 5% or so with a Tervigon vs LD10.

After reading all the thread as a neutral (bloody hell that took a while), I think Abaddon has it spot on.

RAW: Broken

RAI: Unknown

HYWPI: ask opponent/gaming group/TO

I would also add fluff wise: its a shriek... surely a wave of (psychic) sound will hit wherever it is directed? I mean it is sound... stand right under a speaker in a nightclub where the sound is focussed and your bones feel like they are vibrating, move away and the bass no longer makes your teeth shudder. Where ever you stand under that speaker the wave of sound will hit you, not in a particular place as narrow as the line of a bullet or shell. That's how I would read it fluff and logic wise anyway. Plus if it auto hits, it makes the power actually worth taking.
I don't run psycic shriek myself btw so aren't biased towards it.
If you can't decide, roll a 4+ each time it is used. 4+ auto hits. 3- roll to hit.
I think discussing how the rules tell you how to use it has run its course now because its quite apparent they don't and you've been going in circles for at least 3 pages now.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your stuck on psychic powers being Assault weapons. They are not. Manifesting a witchfire counts as FIRING an assault weapon. That means you can declare a charge, etc.

Please explain how many dice you roll for a power that has Assault 4 listed in its profile. Do so without ever referencing page 51.

You roll 4, because a specific profile for that power.. ( for example Smite) is listed. Therefore it has more than 1 shot, (pg 13).


Your really trying to stretch too hard. Lets reverse this. All assault weapons have a profile (pg 50). Please list the profile for Puppet master for me since you claim Psy Powers are assault weapons.

No, witchfire powers are assault weapons, page 69. But thanks for helping to prove my point - Puppet Master doesn't have a profile either.

Failure to provide a profile proves they are not. All assault weapons have a profile. Puppet master, hemorrhage, crush do not, therefore they cannot be assault weapons. Your own argument proves such.

They are treated as firing an assault weapon, therefore disallowing a run or turbo boost, however you can declare a charge.

They are required to roll a to hit roll and should a 6 be rolled, they would be a precision hit. However, the odds of this occurring and actually mattering are very low. About 5% or so with a Tervigon vs LD10.

Here is my problem with this. Puppet Master is a focused witchfire. The witchfire rules state that the psyker cannot choose the target unless he passes his LD test on a 5 or less. If he passes with more than a 5, it is a random model. By adding a "to hit" roll, we give the player a mechanism to bypass this rule through precision shot. So if the psyker rolls a "9" for his leadership but then a "6" to hit, does he still get to pick a specific model per precision shot or is he disallowed because of the witchfire rules?

I agree the intent is generally unknown, but on witchfires without a profile I think insisting on the to hit roll makes the game more complicated, not less. Puppet master is most likely a witchfire power because it allows the psyker to shoot a more powerful weapon in lieu of his own. As a malediction, it would have given the psyker a bonus shooting attack which GW normally tries not to allow. Hemorrhage also has clear effects that can be used independent of the to hit roll, just like crush and psychic shriek.

To me, the most logical solution is that witchfires with a weapons profile are fired exactly like assault weapons to include a to hit roll (i.e. Smite, Life Leech) and powers without a profile will resolve their effects automatically after passing a psychic test and a failed DTW (i.e. Psychic Shriek, Puppet Master, Hemorrhage). This circumvents the issues raised about number of dice to be rolled for powers without a profile and the loophole on focused witchfire rules versus precision shot.

Puppet Master doesn't cause Wounds does it? If it does not cause Wounds, then the power would not benefit from Precision Shots, as the Precision just permits the firing player to allocate the Wound/Wounds as he/she wants.

All psychic Witchfires (other than the ones with blast or template) count as firing an assault weapon, therefore MUST roll To Hit. They do not roll To Hits (plural) unless they have multiple shots described in their power rules. The ones with no numbers of shots listed still roll To Hit, meaning a singular roll To Hit.