Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/06 22:23:10
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Courageous Space Marine Captain
|
Happyjew wrote:
Everybody agrees that you have to roll To Hit. The reason it has gone on for 7 pages is that people can't agree on how many dice you roll (1 or undefined).
But you must agree that in reality we know. It's a technical hiccup at best. I don't believe that it even occurred to GW designers that someone would demand to be told that they have to roll that one die. When something is blindingly obvious, it is easy to forget to actually write it down.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/06 22:56:05
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
If it was blindingly obvious we wouldn't have 8 pages of discussion.
|
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/06 23:07:38
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Courageous Space Marine Captain
|
Happyjew wrote:If it was blindingly obvious we wouldn't have 8 pages of discussion.
What is not blindingly obvious is whether you have to roll at all. That is the matter what the genuine confusion is about. I admit I'm not absolutely certain which way they meant it. However, if you think you have to roll to hit, then you really know how many dice to roll. The matter may be technically unclear, but we all know that in case you roll at all, you roll one die. So if GW designers meant that you have to roll, it is perfectly plausible that they forgot to spell out the exact number of dice as it was obvious to them.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/06 23:11:08
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
Some Tomb World in some galaxy by that one thing in that one place (or Minnesota for nosy people)
|
RaW-No solution as rules are not clear enough
RaI-too vague
Imo its a matter of the TO's house rule or have your club/friends you game with come to a local concencus
|
"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War
"If your not winning, try a bigger sword! Usually works..."
10k
2k
500 |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/06 23:32:55
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
rigeld2 wrote:Fragile wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Fragile wrote:There is no profile for Psychic Shriek. Psy Powers are not required to have profiles.
Firing assault weapons requires a profile.
Witchfires are fired as assault weapons.
Your statement is factually incorrect. .
Psy Powers are not Assault weapons. You have failed to parse the sentence you quote for it.
No, I really haven't.
It's a shooting attack. Said shooting attack is made counting as firing an assault weapon. How do you fire assault weapons that are shooting attacks?
You dont fire assault weapons by passing a Psy Test first. Nor does the target get a DTW vs assault weapons. Psy Powers have their own mechanic for how they are used and after they are manifested they count as having fired assault weapons. Nothing you have shown equates the two. Only a failed parsing of that sentence does, which is incorrect.
And you have a page for this? Pg 13. Most models get to fire one shot, some weapons are capable of firing more than once. You do not have permission to fire a Psy Power more than once unless it is specified. Puppet Master does not.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 00:52:28
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
Fragile wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Fragile wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Fragile wrote:There is no profile for Psychic Shriek. Psy Powers are not required to have profiles.
Firing assault weapons requires a profile.
Witchfires are fired as assault weapons.
Your statement is factually incorrect. .
Psy Powers are not Assault weapons. You have failed to parse the sentence you quote for it.
No, I really haven't.
It's a shooting attack. Said shooting attack is made counting as firing an assault weapon. How do you fire assault weapons that are shooting attacks?
You dont fire assault weapons by passing a Psy Test first. Nor does the target get a DTW vs assault weapons. Psy Powers have their own mechanic for how they are used and after they are manifested they count as having fired assault weapons. Nothing you have shown equates the two. Only a failed parsing of that sentence does, which is incorrect.
So you're refusing to answer my question? Cool story bro. Come back when you have relevant statements.
Using a witchfire is firing an assault weapon.
|
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 01:07:01
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
You question is irrelevant. Assault weapons have their own mechanic and have Profiles. Show me the profile on Crush, Hemorrhage, Puppet Master. Hint.. they do not have one, because Psy Powers are not assault weapons. They only count as having fired them. Until then, you have nothing but your RAI and HIWPI statements from early in this thread. RAW is clear.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/07 01:09:02
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 01:17:49
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
Fragile wrote:And you have a page for this? Pg 13. Most models get to fire one shot, some weapons are capable of firing more than once. You do not have permission to fire a Psy Power more than once unless it is specified. Puppet Master does not.
But we are not talking about weapons. We are talking about psychic powers, which as you claimed (5 times no less)
Fragile wrote:Your stuck on psychic powers being Assault weapons. They are not.
Fragile wrote:But a psychic power is a psychic power, not an assault weapon.
So if the rule is weapons fire one shot, then this rue does not apply. Therefore Page 13, 50, and 51 do not apply. So without referencing those rules (as they deal with weapons, not psychic powers), please cite a page that says unless otherwise specified witchfire powers roll a single dice to hit.
|
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 01:21:51
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
Fragile wrote:You question is irrelevant. Assault weapons have their own mechanic and have Profiles. Show me the profile on Crush, Hemorrhage, Puppet Master. Hint.. they do not have one, because Psy Powers are not assault weapons. They only count as having fired them. Until then, you have nothing but your RAI and HIWPI statements from early in this thread. RAW is clear.
Yes, RAW is clear in that the powers do not function as written. Or do you disagree with that?
|
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 01:33:24
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Infiltrating Broodlord
|
Kinda surprised this is still going. Everyone here can be construed as correct for RAI. Just talk with your opponent/gaming group/TO. Theirs are the only RAI opinions that are going to matter to you. Time to let this one die I think until an FAQ comes out (if ever).
|
-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 01:42:55
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
rigeld2 wrote:Fragile wrote:You question is irrelevant. Assault weapons have their own mechanic and have Profiles. Show me the profile on Crush, Hemorrhage, Puppet Master. Hint.. they do not have one, because Psy Powers are not assault weapons. They only count as having fired them. Until then, you have nothing but your RAI and HIWPI statements from early in this thread. RAW is clear.
Yes, RAW is clear in that the powers do not function as written. Or do you disagree with that?
Use Warp Charge, Declare Target, Psy Test, DTW, Resolve Power.
Resolving a Witchfire.
Roll to hit and if successful resolve effects.
Pretty basic.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 01:53:23
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
Fragile wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Fragile wrote:You question is irrelevant. Assault weapons have their own mechanic and have Profiles. Show me the profile on Crush, Hemorrhage, Puppet Master. Hint.. they do not have one, because Psy Powers are not assault weapons. They only count as having fired them. Until then, you have nothing but your RAI and HIWPI statements from early in this thread. RAW is clear.
Yes, RAW is clear in that the powers do not function as written. Or do you disagree with that?
Use Warp Charge, Declare Target, Psy Test, DTW, Resolve Power.
Resolving a Witchfire.
Roll to hit and if successful resolve effects.
Pretty basic.
OK, but how many dice do you roll to hit with? Page 13, 50, and 51 don't apply as they deal with weapons.
|
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 07:27:57
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Crimson - I actually stated it, as was pointed out, in my first post. I kept pointing it out. You kept missing it, in your apparent hostiliity
Also, by "know" you mean "assume". You are assuming you use one dice to see if you roll to hit, and you are assuming that the roll to hit has to succeed for you to use the 3D6 ability. You cannot, as you have not, provide any proof of either assumption. Nothing.
Fragile - please answer HJs question, without using page 13, 50 or 51, as you are asserting (without any rules, of course) that you are not firing an assault weapon.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 07:48:03
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Implacable Black Templar Initiate
|
A witchfire power must roll To Hit,... (p69).
Psychic Shriek does not mention To Hit rolls, therefore it does not deviate from the already stated rule about WF.
You can infer that PS requires a (ONE) To Hit roll because it is a WF, has no profile, and its description offers no exception to the WF rules.
Arguing RAW vs RAI for this has gotten ridiculous. All a player needs to do is think about... HWYPI! Just ask yourself, seriously, HWYPI.
PS requires no To Hit rolls? Requires one for each wound caused?
What about every other WF out there? How many does Puppet Master require? Mind War? How would these powers play out with multiple To Hit rolls?
Saying they require no To Hit rolls clearly breaks the rule from p69. In lieu of a written exception, they all require a To Hit roll.
In practice, you will see all non-area, non-profile providing WFs require ONE To Hit roll.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/07 08:01:40
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 09:26:31
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
Actually, in my area (Chicago Battle Bunker) I have played many games and my opponents have had no issue with my Psykers not rolling to hit for Psychic Shriek.
|
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 09:36:04
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Farseer Pef wrote:
In practice, you will see all non-area, non-profile providing WFs require ONE To Hit roll.
Not a single person in any tournament, LGS etc that I have seen use a witchfire power that has no obvious requirement to roll to hit has done so. NOt a single one
Throws your "in practice" argument out of the water, like all anecdotal "evidence" tends to do to "intent" based arguments. Some people see it one way, some see it the other.
Noone can prove that a succesful roll to hit is required to perform the 3D6 check. Noone, because no textual rule exists that states so. That is the plain fact of the matter. As such I play it that it is irrelevant if you roll to hit or not.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 09:36:56
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Courageous Space Marine Captain
|
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Also, by "know" you mean "assume". You are assuming you use one dice to see if you roll to hit, and you are assuming that the roll to hit has to succeed for you to use the 3D6 ability.
Yes, indeed, which I find immensely more plausible assumptions than assumption that when they wrote that witchfires need to roll to hit, they didn't actually mean it.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 09:43:41
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
I never made that assumption, I stated it was irrelevant, using rules. As rules matter.
Can we all agree you have no rules argument here, just a HYPWI one?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 09:50:23
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Implacable Black Templar Initiate
|
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Noone can prove that a succesful roll to hit is required to perform the 3D6 check. Noone, because no textual rule exists that states so. That is the plain fact of the matter. As such I play it that it is irrelevant if you roll to hit or not.
Farseer Pef wrote:A witchfire power must roll To Hit,... (p69).
Psychic Shriek does not mention To Hit rolls, therefore it does not deviate from the already stated rule about WF.
Saying they require no To Hit rolls clearly breaks the rule from p69. In lieu of a written exception, they all require a To Hit roll.
I have provided a textual rule. I have provided a train of thought on bridging a 'gap' in rule interpretation. I recommend going back and thinking about the questions I posed earlier while keeping p69 in mind. Just because others have ignored the rule, intentionally or unintentionally, doesn't mean the rule doesn't apply.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 09:53:07
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Courageous Space Marine Captain
|
nosferatu1001 wrote:I never made that assumption, I stated it was irrelevant, using rules. As rules matter.
And yet, by the rules it is required. You have to roll, whether or not it affects anything, and you cannot know the number of dice to be rolled. You're stuck.
Can we all agree you have no rules argument here, just a HYPWI one?
Your interpretation of the rules requires your houserule of allowing to skip the roll to hit part to work. That isn't any less HYWPI.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 13:03:36
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Crimson wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:I never made that assumption, I stated it was irrelevant, using rules. As rules matter.
And yet, by the rules it is required. You have to roll, whether or not it affects anything, and you cannot know the number of dice to be rolled. You're stuck.
Yes, and? Does that alter the truth of what I am stating?
Do you agree, yes or no, that there is no textual basis for requring a successful roll to hit (of an undetermined number of dice as per page 51 requirements for assault weapons, or the underfeind number of dice if you say it isnt a weapon - either way it is undefined) in order to use the 3D6 ?
Yes or No. Simple question, simple answer.
Crimson wrote:Can we all agree you have no rules argument here, just a HYPWI one?
Your interpretation of the rules requires your houserule of allowing to skip the roll to hit part to work. That isn't any less HYWPI.
It has more basis than making up an arbitrary number of dice to roll. You arent told how many to roll, so dont roll any. You are not told the 3D6 effect requires a successful roll to hit, meaning the roll to hit is irrelevant anyway
Skipping somethign irrelevant vs making up a number of dice to roll AND creating a rule that requires the roll to hit to be succsful. I count one houserule vs 2.
Oh, and I never said it wasnt HYWPI, you just managed to miss it over and over and over by your overly hostile and demeaning attitude to people discussing the rules, and how they have a gap.
Farseer - no, you have not stated anything new. I agree you need to roll to hit, RAW. My point is that you cannot prove that a successful roll to hit is required before you can use the effect.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 15:08:05
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
If a hit roll is required, it then has to to be passed to go on.
Otherwise a hit roll wouldn't be required.
It is required for a shooting attack to have a hit roll.
That's how you know it hits.
if a witchfire requires a hit roll then it must hit to have an effect.
agree or disagree? no comments on how many dice to roll.
if the RAW requires it to roll to hit does it require it to roll to hit?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 20:37:13
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
nosferatu1001 wrote:Crimson - I actually stated it, as was pointed out, in my first post. I kept pointing it out. You kept missing it, in your apparent hostiliity
Also, by "know" you mean "assume". You are assuming you use one dice to see if you roll to hit, and you are assuming that the roll to hit has to succeed for you to use the 3D6 ability. You cannot, as you have not, provide any proof of either assumption. Nothing.
Fragile - please answer HJs question, without using page 13, 50 or 51, as you are asserting (without any rules, of course) that you are not firing an assault weapon.
Why would I not use 13? It deals with shooting.
"Most models (Psyker) only get to fire (Witchfire =Psychic shooting attack) one shot (=1d6) however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once ( nothing in Psy Shriek indicates that it should be fired more than once even if you call it an assault weapon).
You have been admittedly arguing HIWPI and apparently do not like the fact that you have to roll to hit. Its understandable as it greatly increases the chance of failing a powerful Psy ability. There is nothing RAW to even consider the fact that it still has an effect if it misses.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 20:41:32
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
There is also nothing RAW to even consider the fact that it does not tell us how many dice to roll to hit.
|
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 22:37:03
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Brainy Zoanthrope
|
Do you need LOS for psychic shreik?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 23:23:59
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Implacable Black Templar Initiate
|
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Farseer - no, you have not stated anything new. I agree you need to roll to hit, RAW. My point is that you cannot prove that a successful roll to hit is required before you can use the effect.
Well that part is simple. When you roll To Hit, you either have a Hit or a Miss.
What do you suppose happens on a Hit?
What do you suppose happens on a Miss?
Do you think a WF, p69 in mind, should resolve any of their effect on a Miss?
Or should it, like every other shooting or melee attack in the game, have no effect whatsoever on a Miss?
Seriously, think these questions over and let us know what answers you come up.
Logic bridges this 'gap' in the rules.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/07 23:27:41
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Courageous Space Marine Captain
|
Farseer Pef wrote:
Do you think a WF, p69 in mind, should resolve any of their effect on a Miss?
He actually thinks they should...
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/08 00:00:20
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Infiltrating Broodlord
|
Well what would a Hit do? Per RAW please cite and explain the mechanics from the book that tell us what to do with a Hit in this case.
Nos has made an RAW argument and has what the BRB says(or lack thereof) backing him and you keep accusing him of being wrong using RAI or HYWPI reasoning. If you want to debate RAI or HYWPI that's fine but please stop attacking his RAW assessment with those arguments because it's counterproductive and you don't have a leg to stand on. I'm keeping up on this thread in case any good new points come forth and I don't mean to be harsh but this has been going on for pages now and it is detracting from the quality of the discussion.
|
-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/08 00:10:56
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
|
I'm sorry abandon but there is no RAW argument for allowing resolution without a successful roll to hit.
An absence of a profile is not permission. It is a RAI argument.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/08 00:25:56
Subject: Psychic Shriek, Witchfires and Precision Shots
|
 |
Courageous Space Marine Captain
|
liturgies of blood wrote:I'm sorry abandon but there is no RAW argument for allowing resolution without a successful roll to hit.
An absence of a profile is not permission. It is a RAI argument.
Well, technically the rules don't say anything about successful roll to hit... It just seems pretty bloody likely to me that they meant that when they wrote 'roll to hit.'
|
|
|
 |
 |
|