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Wahts amazing is that you can substitute "eat bad Mexican food" for "Attack the Capital" and the sentence would remain accurate. I know..I Know!!!

It's nice to know that people here have such modern and enlightened attitudes towards those with mental illness

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's nice to know that people here have such modern and enlightened attitudes towards those with mental illness

It's easy to say that now, but what indicators were there for mental illness during the actual events?

The training for police regarding mental illness cannot cover every eventuality nor potential expression of mental illness.

The expression of mental ill health "Driving a car into a barrier and running over a Secret Service Agent" is easily misconstrued as we can see here. Obviously Dakka is just busily blaming the victim in this senseless tragedy.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's nice to know that people here have such modern and enlightened attitudes towards those with mental illness

It's easy to say that now, but what indicators were there for mental illness during the actual events?

The training for police regarding mental illness cannot cover every eventuality nor potential expression of mental illness.

When Kanluwen and Frazzled agree, we're both either starting the Ritual of Desecration, or enjoying some quality bacon.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's nice to know that people here have such modern and enlightened attitudes towards those with mental illness

It's easy to say that now, but what indicators were there for mental illness during the actual events?

The training for police regarding mental illness cannot cover every eventuality nor potential expression of mental illness.

When Kanluwen and Frazzled agree, we're both either starting the Ritual of Desecration, or enjoying some quality bacon.

I vote bacon...

Because I agree with both of you.

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's nice to know that people here have such modern and enlightened attitudes towards those with mental illness

Being crazy never mattered. She was a danger, and in the capital. That's really all there is to it.

 xole wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's nice to know that people here have such modern and enlightened attitudes towards those with mental illness

Being crazy never mattered. She was a danger, and in the capital. That's really all there is to it.

Indeed. A mentally disturbed person threatening bodily harm is no different to a sane person threatening bodily harm when the Please don't bypass the language filter like this. Last warning. reds8n is going down.

Charles Manson Was coockoo.
The Aurora shooter was coockoo.
John Hinckley was coockoo.

Frazzled is...hey!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's nice to know that people here have such modern and enlightened attitudes towards those with mental illness

It's easy to say that now, but what indicators were there for mental illness during the actual events?

The training for police regarding mental illness cannot cover every eventuality nor potential expression of mental illness.

I'm not talking about the police, I'm talking about the members of this forum throwing out their "hurr durr she dun deserve it riddle 'er wid holes durr"

EDIT: Sod it, from your further responses it's clear you're just despicable individuals with the empathy of a rock, I'm off.

Good bye then?

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's nice to know that people here have such modern and enlightened attitudes towards those with mental illness

It's easy to say that now, but what indicators were there for mental illness during the actual events?

The training for police regarding mental illness cannot cover every eventuality nor potential expression of mental illness.

I'm not talking about the police, I'm talking about the members of this forum throwing out their "hurr durr she dun deserve it riddle 'er wid holes durr"

EDIT: Sod it, from your further responses it's clear you're just despicable individuals with the empathy of a rock, I'm off.

Thats an extreme insult
...to the rocks. They have way more empathy then I do.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's nice to know that people here have such modern and enlightened attitudes towards those with mental illness

It's easy to say that now, but what indicators were there for mental illness during the actual events?

The training for police regarding mental illness cannot cover every eventuality nor potential expression of mental illness.

I'm not talking about the police, I'm talking about the members of this forum throwing out their "hurr durr she dun deserve it riddle 'er wid holes durr"

Where did anybody say that?

It sounds like you're reading into things.

Well, thanks to whichever of you decided to report me: I stand by my comments, and I reiterate them. People on this forum get away with making sly remarks about people with mental disorders far too often, and even if the mods think that's cool beans I ing well don't.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Well, thanks to whichever of you decided to report me: I stand by my comments, and I reiterate them. People on this forum get away with making sly remarks about people with mental disorders far too often, and even if the mods think that's cool beans I ing well don't.

Right... you insult everyone here, and play the grieved party. *rolls eyes*

 djones520 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Well, thanks to whichever of you decided to report me: I stand by my comments, and I reiterate them. People on this forum get away with making sly remarks about people with mental disorders far too often, and even if the mods think that's cool beans I ing well don't.

Right... you insult everyone here, and play the grieved party. *rolls eyes*

This is one instance where we can definitely blame the victim. And I'm not referring to the thread topic.

On another note, yeah its sad that she died, but really, how else would it have ended with everyone taking the precautions that they would against an attack in the US capital

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's nice to know that people here have such modern and enlightened attitudes towards those with mental illness

There might be an interesting story to be told about the treatment this woman should have got in the lead up to the event, and how systems might be better improved to identify such people and give them the help they need in future.

But once she's driving a car around, trying to breach security at the head of government... well then people are going to use lethal force to prevent that.

I mean, what the fething hell would people expect?

I think that they could have stopped her without resorting to lethal force. Lets admit that up front. It's not impossible. It just might have been undesirable.

On the other hand, I am more willing to forgive what we'd consider, retroactively and monday-morning-quarterbacking-it, excessive and early use of lethal force under the heightened circumstances under which this unfolded (i.e. a spot prime for domestic terrorism, where a VBIED seems like a real possibility).

What I'm trying to say is, I don't blame them for killing her, and it's a shame that they had to resort to that. However I think we also have a duty to ask, did they really have to resort to that? (the answer could be yes, but it could be no). Could not stop sticks have been dropped in her way, or was there truly no time to react in this manner? If there was no time, should the first responders here have been better equipped with training and equipment to allow it, or is erring on the side of caution with lethal force the preferred and acceptable response?

In other words, did the police on the scene kill her because that is doctrine in this situation, or because it was unprecedented and they panicked? if it's doctrine, should it be revisited? Indeed, these are all good questions to ask in my opinion.

Well Stop Sticks are poorly named to begin with. They don't stop the vehicle in question, only puncture its tires. Which in itself is not going to bring a vehicle to a dead stop. There isn't a whole lot that can be done to actually stop a moving vehicle, only slow it down and make it harder to control.

Many a car chase has continued long after the vehicle's tires have been shredded. So really, if you need to stop a vehicle and do it now, nothing short of a physical barrier or killing the driver is going to stop it.

Only easily deployable way I've seen of stopping a vehicle non-lethally is with spike nets that actually lock up the axle of the vehicle, but for some reason LEOs aren't issued with these. At least I've never heard of any civilian agency with them.

If it looks like a VBIED, and drives like a VBIED, it's a VBIED till proven otherwise. Which means you shoot it till it stops or blows up before it gets past stand off distance.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
If it looks like a VBIED, and drives like a VBIED, it's a VBIED till proven otherwise. Which means you shoot it till it stops or blows up before it gets past stand off distance.

The problem with this is that our nation's capital is not (theoretically) a active war zone.

it's one thing to install car stoppers at building entrances, but I think you're taking it a little far.

The Capital is a very likely target for a VBIED. If any place should have anti-VBIED protocols its there.

 Ouze wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
If it looks like a VBIED, and drives like a VBIED, it's a VBIED till proven otherwise. Which means you shoot it till it stops or blows up before it gets past stand off distance.

The problem with this is that our nation's capital is not (theoretically) a active war zone.

it's one thing to install car stoppers at building entrances, but I think you're taking it a little far.

Yeah, I doubt Belfast ever thought it would be likely to have VBIEDs around before the Provos started playing the patriot game.

And yet...



I mean hell, we had an attempted attack in Times Square with a VBIED, a VBIED took down the Oklahoma Federal Building. It's not like this hasn't happened before.

You're right, it's not an active war zone over here, nor are we fighting a military. Terrorists don't play by the rules, and they certainly don't care if their target isn't in an "active war zone". Throw what looks like a major weakening of the United States and her security posture due to staff furloughs (the shutdown) into the mix and you have a ripe, viable target that will easily achieve mass fear, which is the real weapon.

So add it up, attempted penetration to a vulnerable area. Agent down call. Erratic high speed movement towards the capital building. Not shocking the cops behaved like they did.

 Ouze wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
If it looks like a VBIED, and drives like a VBIED, it's a VBIED till proven otherwise. Which means you shoot it till it stops or blows up before it gets past stand off distance.

The problem with this is that our nation's capital is not (theoretically) a active war zone.

it's one thing to install car stoppers at building entrances, but I think you're taking it a little far.

I do not think the Indefinite War on Terror has been declared over yet.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Hey you know what? Attack the Capital - get your ass shot. Move along, nothing to see here.

Concurred.

I too wish to subscribe to your view, and/or newsletter

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's nice to know that people here have such modern and enlightened attitudes towards those with mental illness

And when was the most opportune time for the Police to ask for a mental health evaluation? When she attempted to reach the White House? When she used her vehicle as a weapon to hit two officers? Or when she attempted to ram other barriers?
Hindsight is a wonderful things. Sadly it was a luxury that day for those officers on the ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loughgall_Ambush

The IRA's East Tyrone Brigade carried out attacks in eastern County Tyrone, though it had also conducted operations in neighbouring County Armagh. Since 1985 it had been led by Patrick Joseph Kelly. The brigade had carried out two major attacks on RUC bases in eastern Tyrone, described by author Mark Urban as "spectaculars".[5] The first was an attack on the RUC barracks in Ballygawley on 7 December 1985. The second was an attack on an RUC base at The Birches, near Portadown, on 11 August 1986. Both of these attacks involved raking the bases with gunfire, breaching the reinforced fences and detonating a bomb inside. In both attacks, the bases were wrecked and RUC personnel killed or injured. It was therefore with some confidence that the IRA tried the same tactics on the unmanned Loughgall base.[6][7]

The SAS, however, had set a trap to destroy the unit as it began its attack. They placed an SAS soldier inside the base, and deployed a squad of 24 soldiers split into six groups around the building. It has been alleged, but never proved, that the RUC had an informer among the IRA members, and that he was killed by the SAS in the ambush.[8] Other sources claim instead that the security forces had learned of the ambush while conducting surveillance on IRA member Jim Lynagh

The IRA used diggers/JCBs with a bomb in the bucket for these attacks

 Ouze wrote:
I think that they could have stopped her without resorting to lethal force. Lets admit that up front. It's not impossible. It just might have been undesirable.

When it comes to police shootings of mentally disturbed individuals in general, I agree entirely with your post and thinking on the matter... but when the attack is on the capital you don't feth around.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Well, thanks to whichever of you decided to report me: I stand by my comments, and I reiterate them. People on this forum get away with making sly remarks about people with mental disorders far too often, and even if the mods think that's cool beans I ing well don't.

Didn't report you. You're kind of funny, like when I slide down the rope in gym class.
Austin Tower shooter was crazy and not harmless.
VMI shooter was crazy and not harmless
Sandy Hook shooter was crazy and not harmless
The guy who lit up the firefighters in NE was crazy and not harmless
The got who started shotting up the mall and was stopped by a CHLer in the NW was crazy and not harmless
Sirhan Sirhan was crazy and not harmless


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:
I think that they could have stopped her without resorting to lethal force. Lets admit that up front. It's not impossible. It just might have been undesirable.

I don't. I'm shocked she got that close (if thats the gate near the Capial Building) and that a 300mag round didn't pop her out of nowhere through the windshield. That needs to be rectified in the future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Capital is a very likely target for a VBIED. If any place should have anti-VBIED protocols its there.

Agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Am I the only one thinking thats an advertisement to a bar on the left?

 Yodhrin wrote:
Well, thanks to whichever of you decided to report me: I stand by my comments, and I reiterate them. People on this forum get away with making sly remarks about people with mental disorders far too often, and even if the mods think that's cool beans I ing well don't.

Is being oversensitive a mental disorder?

This country will go nuts if extremists/insurgents/nutjobs start using VIED's in the USA. Nailing a target in DC is making a statement. Nailing a mom and pop town type of church on a Sunday is pure terror. People expect big targets in major cities. Terror attacks are way more effective if out in the countryside or suburbs because it is not expected for them to be a target.

Well VBIEDs have been used before. I remember a certain truck that was packed with Fertilizer...