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It's interesting to see so much about the abstract, e.g. what do they want for the universe, etc.

For me it's all about the individual and chaos literally offers a chance in about 5 million of an incredible power - becoming a daemon prince.

Khorne offers devolution into a ravening psychopathic killer and maniac, unable to function, constantly on the edge of extreme violence and only able to relate to other through aggression. It turns you into a monster.

Tzeentch offers impossibly complex scheming which mortals can't comprehend and massive mutation, leading to spawndom. Sorcerous powers will cause you to die quickly due to the incredible danger.

Slaanesh will turn you into an utter degenerate, almost incapable of feeling anything due to the overload on your senses, you'll become a masochist, a sadist, a murderer and feel nothing.

Nurgle is the most obviously negative. Yes you might not feel it but the horrific degeneration of your body into a disgusting rotting, bloated hulk that stinks and seethes with maggots is hardly a great reward.

You get the impression that chaos can offer some clever intial 'ins', like a dodgy car salesman, like Slaanesh offering 'free love' or Khorne offering increased warrior prowess. Behind this is nothing but horror and degeneration.

Even if you become a daemon prince have you really succeeded? You become tied to your patron, a tool with their attributes. You may become a daemon prince of Nurgle, but you're a huge rotting, disgusting wreck with your guts spilling out and nurglings bursting out of every orifice.

Having said that it's grimdark so none of the factions offer much. However, if you believe the hype and propaganda I reckon it would be easier to live and die as say a guardsman or an Eldar aspect warrior than a follower of chaos sliding into corruption and physical and mental annihilation.

 Kain wrote:

 Whiskered wrote:
Personally I see each faction in wh 40 k as neutral, they are good for them selves and bad for others. Each faction is made up of millions of individuals which varies entirely so it is hard to say that a given faction is bad or good.

This is like saying that there were positives to Hitler's regime. Sure he helped the German economy, but the bad far outweighs the negative. And even the Tau make Hitler look like a saint in comparison.

The nazis tanked the German economy. It was on the road to recovery at the end of the Weimar period, but the nazi's pretty much went into total war mode from day 1. That's very bad for an economy.

If you want to find a positive to the nazi regime, I'm pretty sure they were pretty strict on animal cruelty. </godwin>

Isengard wrote:
It's interesting to see so much about the abstract, e.g. what do they want for the universe, etc.

For me it's all about the individual and chaos literally offers a chance in about 5 million of an incredible power - becoming a daemon prince.

Khorne offers devolution into a ravening psychopathic killer and maniac, unable to function, constantly on the edge of extreme violence and only able to relate to other through aggression. It turns you into a monster.

Tzeentch offers impossibly complex scheming which mortals can't comprehend and massive mutation, leading to spawndom. Sorcerous powers will cause you to die quickly due to the incredible danger.

Slaanesh will turn you into an utter degenerate, almost incapable of feeling anything due to the overload on your senses, you'll become a masochist, a sadist, a murderer and feel nothing.

Nurgle is the most obviously negative. Yes you might not feel it but the horrific degeneration of your body into a disgusting rotting, bloated hulk that stinks and seethes with maggots is hardly a great reward.

You get the impression that chaos can offer some clever intial 'ins', like a dodgy car salesman, like Slaanesh offering 'free love' or Khorne offering increased warrior prowess. Behind this is nothing but horror and degeneration.

Even if you become a daemon prince have you really succeeded? You become tied to your patron, a tool with their attributes. You may become a daemon prince of Nurgle, but you're a huge rotting, disgusting wreck with your guts spilling out and nurglings bursting out of every orifice.

Having said that it's grimdark so none of the factions offer much. However, if you believe the hype and propaganda I reckon it would be easier to live and die as say a guardsman or an Eldar aspect warrior than a follower of chaos sliding into corruption and physical and mental annihilation.

But you forget how Chaos corruption works, it capacity to corrupt and spread is incredible, plus while it turns Chaos followers in monsters, they are happy. Chaos is like the second happiest faction after the Orks.

 Tyran wrote:

Isengard wrote:
It's interesting to see so much about the abstract, e.g. what do they want for the universe, etc.

For me it's all about the individual and chaos literally offers a chance in about 5 million of an incredible power - becoming a daemon prince.

Khorne offers devolution into a ravening psychopathic killer and maniac, unable to function, constantly on the edge of extreme violence and only able to relate to other through aggression. It turns you into a monster.

Tzeentch offers impossibly complex scheming which mortals can't comprehend and massive mutation, leading to spawndom. Sorcerous powers will cause you to die quickly due to the incredible danger.

Slaanesh will turn you into an utter degenerate, almost incapable of feeling anything due to the overload on your senses, you'll become a masochist, a sadist, a murderer and feel nothing.

Nurgle is the most obviously negative. Yes you might not feel it but the horrific degeneration of your body into a disgusting rotting, bloated hulk that stinks and seethes with maggots is hardly a great reward.

You get the impression that chaos can offer some clever intial 'ins', like a dodgy car salesman, like Slaanesh offering 'free love' or Khorne offering increased warrior prowess. Behind this is nothing but horror and degeneration.

Even if you become a daemon prince have you really succeeded? You become tied to your patron, a tool with their attributes. You may become a daemon prince of Nurgle, but you're a huge rotting, disgusting wreck with your guts spilling out and nurglings bursting out of every orifice.

Having said that it's grimdark so none of the factions offer much. However, if you believe the hype and propaganda I reckon it would be easier to live and die as say a guardsman or an Eldar aspect warrior than a follower of chaos sliding into corruption and physical and mental annihilation.

But you forget how Chaos corruption works, it capacity to corrupt and spread is incredible, plus while it turns Chaos followers in monsters, they are happy. Chaos is like the second happiest faction after the Orks.

That is why the orks win. they are happy.

I personally recommend the slaves to darkness series I know its warhammer fantasy but that trilogy shows you that the so called "bad" guys and "good" guys are no better than each other. I also think this links to 40k too currently I am on the second book and the lover is going down the same path like her lover kurt who lost himself to chaos.

Instead que the religous zealotry and begin the purging she even thinks the other empire gods and heresy.

Look at the sisters of battle with their "cleansing" all they are doing is appeasing khorne and slaanesh their zealous hatred and their enjoyment and disgust of purging heretics.

Look at warhammer soulstorm when the sisters of battle beat the tau the cannoness offers the ethereal skull to the emperor. That skull is not going to the emperor.

Its not some thing simple. Even if the so called forces of chaos (humans) got beaten chaos will still be around since the imperium is fueling it anyway.

They are all of the worst qualities of human emotion made (sorta) physical. so yes. they really are that bad.

Worst qualities of human emotions?

I beg to differ lol

I would like you to watch Christian Bale's : Equilibrium

It is not emotion that makes a person strong or weak, it's his capacity to feel those emotions..

GoliothOnline wrote:
Worst qualities of human emotions?

I beg to differ lol

I would like you to watch Christian Bale's : Equilibrium

It is not emotion that makes a person strong or weak, it's his capacity to feel those emotions..

moreover, the inability to control said emotions.

I'm amidst reading "betrayer" the first of the Horus heresy books, and prior to the siege of terror, the traitor factions were hardly different then the astartes, the started off as honorable warriors, same as space marines. Each legion was corrupted to a verying degree by the forces of chaos. The fluff Behind my warband is a great company of space wolves who got tired of the imperiums slavery and nazi-ism and joined a less radical, less afflicted CSM warband. They aren't all that malicious and try only to survive and live as free men in the grim darkness of the far future. But they are considered heretics by the imperium of man and are thus relentlessly hunted. Bjorn led these defectors, as he also got tired of all the madness. *And i wanted to use a proffessionally painted full metal Bjorn model in my army xD*

GoliothOnline wrote:
Worst qualities of human emotions?

I beg to differ lol

I would like you to watch Christian Bale's : Equilibrium

It is not emotion that makes a person strong or weak, it's his capacity to feel those emotions..

The progress of human society goes hand in hand with the suppression of base emotions. We'd all love to run around hitting each other over the head with rocks but, tragically, society forbids it.

xruslanx wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Whiskered wrote:
Personally I see each faction in wh 40 k as neutral, they are good for them selves and bad for others. Each faction is made up of millions of individuals which varies entirely so it is hard to say that a given faction is bad or good.

This is like saying that there were positives to Hitler's regime. Sure he helped the German economy, but the bad far outweighs the negative. And even the Tau make Hitler look like a saint in comparison.

The nazis tanked the German economy. It was on the road to recovery at the end of the Weimar period, but the nazi's pretty much went into total war mode from day 1. That's very bad for an economy.

If you want to find a positive to the nazi regime, I'm pretty sure they were pretty strict on animal cruelty. </godwin>

One ofthe defining features of the Weimar republic was its inherent instability. Germany see-sawed between econimic recovery, and abject misery. Political uncertainty was worsened by the presence of paramilitary militias maintained by all the main parties. Street fighting, attempted coups and hyper-inflation were all characteristics of post WW1 germany. When The National Socialists came into power in 1933, unemployment was at 5 million (out of a total population of 45 million, and a working population of 18 million or so) by 1936, unemployment was down to 1 million, political uncertainty had been erased by the sometimes violent suppression of opposition parties (notably the communists) and the fact that Adolf Hitler became the supreme leader when he also became the chancellor. The Nazi Party also made it their mission to reverse the injustices of the versailles treaty by reclaiming the german land unjustly (in their eyes) ceded to various of the allies. This was achieved pretty much bloodlessly, and in 1936 when there was a plebisite, Adolf Hitler had 98.2% popularity.

Up until the start of WW2 in 1939, Germany and the Nazi Party had been nothing but a success story for the Germans in reversing the injustices they had suffered, and while it might not be fashionable to say, Hitler did every single thing he said he would do in his 1933 election manifesto. i don't know of any politician, or any party (with the exception of single issue parties) that can say the same.

The great tragedy of Germany in the 1930's and 40's is that all the good things that were achieved, the restoration of natural borders, the re-unification of the german state, and anulment of the versailles treaty, and the amazing recovery of the economy was marred by the second world war, and the horrific and absolutely unforgivable crimes against the Jews, the poles, the slavs, the Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and anyone else who was judged to be less than an 'ubermensch'

While you can argue that the Nazi party did some good, thats like looking for a silver lining on a turd

I follow Khorne because I believe that my friends and family all deserve to be decapitated by Bloodletters!

madtankbloke wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Whiskered wrote:
Personally I see each faction in wh 40 k as neutral, they are good for them selves and bad for others. Each faction is made up of millions of individuals which varies entirely so it is hard to say that a given faction is bad or good.

This is like saying that there were positives to Hitler's regime. Sure he helped the German economy, but the bad far outweighs the negative. And even the Tau make Hitler look like a saint in comparison.

The nazis tanked the German economy. It was on the road to recovery at the end of the Weimar period, but the nazi's pretty much went into total war mode from day 1. That's very bad for an economy.

If you want to find a positive to the nazi regime, I'm pretty sure they were pretty strict on animal cruelty. </godwin>

One ofthe defining features of the Weimar republic was its inherent instability. Germany see-sawed between econimic recovery, and abject misery. Political uncertainty was worsened by the presence of paramilitary militias maintained by all the main parties. Street fighting, attempted coups and hyper-inflation were all characteristics of post WW1 germany. When The National Socialists came into power in 1933, unemployment was at 5 million (out of a total population of 45 million, and a working population of 18 million or so) by 1936, unemployment was down to 1 million, political uncertainty had been erased by the sometimes violent suppression of opposition parties (notably the communists) and the fact that Adolf Hitler became the supreme leader when he also became the chancellor. The Nazi Party also made it their mission to reverse the injustices of the versailles treaty by reclaiming the german land unjustly (in their eyes) ceded to various of the allies. This was achieved pretty much bloodlessly, and in 1936 when there was a plebisite, Adolf Hitler had 98.2% popularity.

Up until the start of WW2 in 1939, Germany and the Nazi Party had been nothing but a success story for the Germans in reversing the injustices they had suffered, and while it might not be fashionable to say, Hitler did every single thing he said he would do in his 1933 election manifesto. i don't know of any politician, or any party (with the exception of single issue parties) that can say the same.

The great tragedy of Germany in the 1930's and 40's is that all the good things that were achieved, the restoration of natural borders, the re-unification of the german state, and anulment of the versailles treaty, and the amazing recovery of the economy was marred by the second world war, and the horrific and absolutely unforgivable crimes against the Jews, the poles, the slavs, the Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and anyone else who was judged to be less than an 'ubermensch'

While you can argue that the Nazi party did some good, thats like looking for a silver lining on a turd

Yep! Well said!

Now in the fictional sense, chaos torture for pleasure, slaughter innocents for fun, enslave entire planets, commit mass genocide on the scale of billions, worship entities that encourage selfish needs and wants and bring misery, pain and suffering to an entire galaxy... Sorry OP and anyone saying chaos is not evil, but I have to clear this up... what is your definition of evil? Because if that doesn't cover it, you have no right to call Hitler, Stalin, Amin, Saddam, Osama, Westborough baptists, Gengis Khan or any other real life human being evil. In fact, if 'evil' is not a definition that covers these acts then the word starts to lose all definition.
The idea of liberty is not to do whatever you like and not give a damn how it effects others, that is what republicans wish you to believe what liberal ideals are. No - liberty is freedom to do what you like as long as it does not encroach uppon anothers freedoms.
It makes me uneasy to compare all the above real life monsters to a fictional concept but I was just staggered that some people believe these acts are not evil but instead just a matter of perspective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xruslanx wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Worst qualities of human emotions?

I beg to differ lol

I would like you to watch Christian Bale's : Equilibrium

It is not emotion that makes a person strong or weak, it's his capacity to feel those emotions..

The progress of human society goes hand in hand with the suppression of base emotions. We'd all love to run around hitting each other over the head with rocks but, tragically, society forbids it.

I strongly disagree with this. It is not surpression of base emotions that prevents humanity smashing each over the head with stones. It is compassion, empathy and the survival of the fittest, which as Richard Dawkins expresses fantastically, includes the ability to function in a group, looking out for danger to the entire group not just oneself and providing for the group as the group provides for you.

I would say this about the gods individually

Khorne: Isn't he basically wanting the Great Crusade (With lots of xeno blood shed, and then a Heresy with more blood) with a little Hitler mixed in? He has very strange ideals, but not completely evil.

Nurgle: Looks after his kids, blesses them, blesses those who aren't his kids, and gets sad when any of them die.

Slaanesh: Pure sadist, is basically an drug addict who has a few affairs. And by a few, I mean a lot.

Tzeench: Who knows... Probably just bored.

So goes into the 'Evil, but not as evil as you can get', because they are mostly doing what they do for the sake of it. Nobody think of the Imperium as evil, either.

After reading Nemesis the Warlock, I haven't been able to see the Imperium as the "good guys". The only good guys in 40k are probably the Eldar and Tau

The Eldar will sacrifice a billion of another race, gladly, to save one of their own. They also created Slaanesh. The Dark Eldar are "true" Eldar, these monks floating about in the Craftworlds are the nerds and wallflowers that never got invited to all the really good parties.

Of course, if you're looking for a definite "good guy" in 40K... keep looking. There aren't any.

 Squat Kid wrote:
After reading Nemesis the Warlock, I haven't been able to see the Imperium as the "good guys". The only good guys in 40k are probably the Eldar and Tau

Eldar are more of the "Lawful Neutral" type. Tau are more good guys.

 Timmy149 wrote:

 Squat Kid wrote:
After reading Nemesis the Warlock, I haven't been able to see the Imperium as the "good guys". The only good guys in 40k are probably the Eldar and Tau

Eldar are more of the "Lawful Neutral" type. Tau are more good guys.

Forced sterilization of humans, genocide, mental control, a very strict cast system; the Tau make Hitler and Stalin look like amateurs... Still they are the closer you can get to "good" in 40k.

 Tyran wrote:

 Timmy149 wrote:

 Squat Kid wrote:
After reading Nemesis the Warlock, I haven't been able to see the Imperium as the "good guys". The only good guys in 40k are probably the Eldar and Tau

Eldar are more of the "Lawful Neutral" type. Tau are more good guys.

Forced sterilization of humans, genocide, mental control, a very strict cast system; the Tau make Hitler and Stalin look like amateurs... Still they are the closer you can get to "good" in 40k.

And communism. Don't forget communism.

tau do not commit genocide unless its the only option (like orks) It is only "forced" on populaces that are rebellious. Even then its only subtle and not 100% of them are sterilized. The caste system works because they evolved to fit those rolls. Everyone has a place. just because its a caste doesn't make it bad in itself. the Mental control is highly debatable. Thats along the terms of accusing Dark Angels of being heretics in disguise. and saying Alpha legion works for the emperor.

how are they communist? the only thing they share with communism is the shunning of the self, or I, or ego of a person. (individuals are still rewarded though )

 raiden wrote:
tau do not commit genocide unless its the only option (like orks) It is only "forced" on populaces that are rebellious. Even then its only subtle and not 100% of them are sterilized. The caste system works because they evolved to fit those rolls. Everyone has a place. just because its a caste doesn't make it bad in itself. the Mental control is highly debatable. Thats along the terms of accusing Dark Angels of being heretics in disguise. and saying Alpha legion works for the emperor.

how are they communist? the only thing they share with communism is the shunning of the self, or I, or ego of a person. (individuals are still rewarded though )

So they share the main areas, that are most commonly related to communism.