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Elite Tyranid Warrior





So I had I an idea to set up the aegis 24" off my deployment zone and infiltrate 20 storm guardians and karandras. 3+ cover from shooting . With 20 ablative wounds karandras shouldn't have a problem getting into combat . Thoughts ?

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New Zealand

How are you infiltrating the Storm Guardians? You don't deploy infiltrators until after all models without infiltrate and you don't "attach" ICs until after deployment (or while they're in reserve, which i suppose is after deployment as well now that i think about it)
   
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Florida

Depends on how you interpret p.39 of the rulebook as to when IC join a unit. If allowed in your area then why not just use Wraithguard?

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My group allows it. As for d-scythe wraithguards I don't plan on buying any.

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A garden grove on Citadel Station

I think the most important thing to consider is that given how great regular scorpions are these days, would your unit be greatly improved by sticking with regular scorpions? It is true that they cost nearly 2x as much as a storm guardian, but they have 3+ for flamers, barrages, and once they get into combat, they have higher strength, and more attacks each than the guardians. You also do not have to worry so much about the enemy using focus fire to bolter down all the guardians that did not make it into cover.

The aegis 24" out draws even more of your points into the plan, and could potentially be a disadvantage if the enemy takes it. You also give up the potential for fielding a quadgun.

Your testing might prove it to be a strong option, particularly against opponents that can't deal with droves of t3 5+ models in cover, but to me it seems like it has many potential vulnerabilities and moving parts. You might have more success cutting down the strike force and fortification and fielding an additional unit with the points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/04 00:25:39


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wasted points, better options, why do you need the adl? Youd be better off infiltrating in a unit of harlequins or wraithguard.

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Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior





I guess to me its about bodies. There is something impressive about storm guardians models for me and seeing that many in a blob just oozes sexy to me... Might try regular guardians too 40 pseudo rending shots might be worth it XD

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But it doesn't change the fact that t3 guys in 5+ armor just disappear when shot at.

I would do 10 scytheguard or axeguard. Expensive but an intimidating presence.

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Speed Drybrushing






Chicago, Illinois

I wouldn't build the unit unless you will have another use for twenty Storm Guardians once GW gets off their behind and answers the question (or when your local TO sees what the general consensus is regarding ICs granting infiltrate is, i.e. they do not).

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UK, Midlands

You cant do this. Its not open to interpretation either, the rules just dont allow it.
   
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Going back to the OP, I've actually run something like that in the old Codex, though I used Guardian Defenders with a Warlock, I've got a list to try out with a Spiritseer in there also, since the Warlock's Conceal can't be relied on anymore.

I'll say this; you're infinitely better off with Guardian Defenders than Storm Guardians... +1 BS4 s4 pseudorending shot is better than +1 WS4 s3 melee attack, Karandras is your hitting power, the Guardians are just 'ablative armour' for him to get him into CC. You do lose out on the Power Swords, but eh they're 24pt a model which is a bit for a Guardian statline.

As having a Spiritseer and Warlock in there for extra buffs and disposable Characters to feed to challenges to keep Karadras open for killingsprees is a very wise idea.

Its far from the most viable thing ever, but it can be pretty funny and as far as Deathstars go, its not a huge amount of points and packs a fair few wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/04 14:28:35


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Steelcity

 Eyesedragon wrote:
My group allows it. As for d-scythe wraithguards I don't plan on buying any.


No offense, but this isn't a tactics discussion if your group allows something that is against the actual rules. Even if this was allowed, is Karandras worth +200 points? Probably not.. Storm guardians are so awful that you might as well just run striking scorpions due to the armor save being a lot better.


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 Kirasu wrote:
 Eyesedragon wrote:
My group allows it. As for d-scythe wraithguards I don't plan on buying any.


No offense, but this isn't a tactics discussion if your group allows something that is against the actual rules. Even if this was allowed, is Karandras worth +200 points? Probably not.. Storm guardians are so awful that you might as well just run striking scorpions due to the armor save being a lot better.



I think their discussion is fine since what their talking is against the rules. It's a rule that is hotly in debate, and with the recently space marine bookr release, most tournaments are actually siding with the idea that you can join an infiltrating character to a unit before deployment. Thus the OPs idea is very valid. And it's very rude of you to say otherwise as if your opinion of the rules is the final say.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
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Limerick

 Coyote81 wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
 Eyesedragon wrote:
My group allows it. As for d-scythe wraithguards I don't plan on buying any.


No offense, but this isn't a tactics discussion if your group allows something that is against the actual rules. Even if this was allowed, is Karandras worth +200 points? Probably not.. Storm guardians are so awful that you might as well just run striking scorpions due to the armor save being a lot better.



I think their discussion is fine since what their talking is against the rules. It's a rule that is hotly in debate, and with the recently space marine bookr release, most tournaments are actually siding with the idea that you can join an infiltrating character to a unit before deployment. Thus the OPs idea is very valid. And it's very rude of you to say otherwise as if your opinion of the rules is the final say.


Firstly, how does the Space Marine book make any difference to the interpretation of the rule?

Secondly, do you know all of the TOs? Because saying most tournaments allow it from where I'm standing is incorrect, as in every single tournament I've gone to it was not allowed. Don't try and act like you can speak for everyone or everywhere, because nobody can, and it doesn't strengthen an argument by doing so.

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 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
 Eyesedragon wrote:
My group allows it. As for d-scythe wraithguards I don't plan on buying any.


No offense, but this isn't a tactics discussion if your group allows something that is against the actual rules. Even if this was allowed, is Karandras worth +200 points? Probably not.. Storm guardians are so awful that you might as well just run striking scorpions due to the armor save being a lot better.



I think their discussion is fine since what their talking is against the rules. It's a rule that is hotly in debate, and with the recently space marine bookr release, most tournaments are actually siding with the idea that you can join an infiltrating character to a unit before deployment. Thus the OPs idea is very valid. And it's very rude of you to say otherwise as if your opinion of the rules is the final say.


Firstly, how does the Space Marine book make any difference to the interpretation of the rule?

Secondly, do you know all of the TOs? Because saying most tournaments allow it from where I'm standing is incorrect, as in every single tournament I've gone to it was not allowed. Don't try and act like you can speak for everyone or everywhere, because nobody can, and it doesn't strengthen an argument by doing so.


Captain Shrike's ability: See, But Remain Unseen has been used by various TOs (In my case, most tournaments) as proof that ICs with infiltrate can join squad before deployment, and thus give infiltrate to the unit. Mainly because his ability read as if they are saying he can only join jump troops during deployment. Making the assumed statement. That if he didn't have this rule, he could have joined any type of unit before deployment.

Do I need to know all the TOs? Or maybe I'm allowed to make a statement like that based on the tournaments I've been to/hear of? Everyone should always take what people say online in context of what that person's opinion would be based on. Doing so otherwise is not a good decision and leads people to make brash black or white comments.

I speak for myself and my experiences. Take you pointy finger else where and take some time to look up what I might be taking about with the new space marine book before throwing it out needlessly.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
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Limerick

 Coyote81 wrote:
 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
 Eyesedragon wrote:
My group allows it. As for d-scythe wraithguards I don't plan on buying any.


No offense, but this isn't a tactics discussion if your group allows something that is against the actual rules. Even if this was allowed, is Karandras worth +200 points? Probably not.. Storm guardians are so awful that you might as well just run striking scorpions due to the armor save being a lot better.



I think their discussion is fine since what their talking is against the rules. It's a rule that is hotly in debate, and with the recently space marine bookr release, most tournaments are actually siding with the idea that you can join an infiltrating character to a unit before deployment. Thus the OPs idea is very valid. And it's very rude of you to say otherwise as if your opinion of the rules is the final say.


Firstly, how does the Space Marine book make any difference to the interpretation of the rule?

Secondly, do you know all of the TOs? Because saying most tournaments allow it from where I'm standing is incorrect, as in every single tournament I've gone to it was not allowed. Don't try and act like you can speak for everyone or everywhere, because nobody can, and it doesn't strengthen an argument by doing so.


Captain Shrike's ability: See, But Remain Unseen has been used by various TOs (In my case, most tournaments) as proof that ICs with infiltrate can join squad before deployment, and thus give infiltrate to the unit. Mainly because his ability read as if they are saying he can only join jump troops during deployment. Making the assumed statement. That if he didn't have this rule, he could have joined any type of unit before deployment.

Do I need to know all the TOs? Or maybe I'm allowed to make a statement like that based on the tournaments I've been to/hear of? Everyone should always take what people say online in context of what that person's opinion would be based on. Doing so otherwise is not a good decision and leads people to make brash black or white comments.

I speak for myself and my experiences. Take you pointy finger else where and take some time to look up what I might be taking about with the new space marine book before throwing it out needlessly.


Firstly, I didn't throw anything out needlessly, which is specifically why I asked you for a clarification on the Space Marine thing. If I don't have a book on me and don't know what you are talking about, how else am I supposed to find out? You could perhaps just answer the question and leave at that next time, instead of tacking on the needless defensive statement as if I'm attacking you or something.

And secondly, people can only realistically take what is written at face value, assuming anything further causes problems, such as your paranoia above that I'm 'pointing my finger' at you. You made a generalist and unrealistic statement, and I responded to what you said exactly. I'm not going to make assumptions as to your subtext because I don't know you, and so I'd rather you yourself lay it out as you have now since done above. The fact that you got defensive about me simply pointing out a flaw in what you said isn't my problem. Simple fact is, if you want people to read "in tournaments where I'm from" then you should say "in tournaments where I'm from" as there is too much hyperbole being thrown around as 'arguments' these days on the internet to give any post the benefit of the doubt. We discuss what is posted, nothing more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/05 14:01:54


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Ok. I should know better, been on these forums long enough to know how well you argue about arguing. I made a point about the Space Marine character that makes the OPs tactic work. Can we talk about that?

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
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Buffalo, NY

 Coyote81 wrote:
Ok. I should know better, been on these forums long enough to know how well you argue about arguing. I made a point about the Space Marine character that makes the OPs tactic work. Can we talk about that?



It's iffy whether or not Shrike can join a unit and grant them Infiltrate. His rule says before deploying. this can mean one of two things:
1) Before the actual deployment "phase" which would allow him to Infiltrate a unit of Jump Infantry.
2) If he is in reserves (which is also before he deploys), he can only join a unit of JI.

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If your group allows it then why are you infiltrating something with Karandas when you could be infiltrating something with Illic?

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Or you can just claim it's all bad luck and you're really the best player in the world if not for those dice and/or cards.
 
   
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 warpspider89 wrote:
If your group allows it then why are you infiltrating something with Karandas when you could be infiltrating something with Illic?


Because he wants to get Karandas into CC.

If that's your objective, sure it's effective. It's not competitive in any real sense, however.

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Speed Drybrushing






Chicago, Illinois

Let's see if this will just make the entire point regarding infiltrating or not moot (since this isn't really the place to discuss rules questions).

20 Storm Guardians, 2 with Power Swords: 210 Points.

10 Striking Scorpions, Exarch with Crushing Blow, Monster Hunter, and Scorp's Claw: 225 points.

The Guardians have nothing to make them better except that you're getting twice the wounds (but at armor that's pierced by a Bolter).

The Scorpions give you 3+ armor, S4, an AP6 melee weapon (rarely matters except when cutting through Orks), Mandiblasters (effectively a Hammer of Wrath attack that partially makes up for the lack of bodies in comparison to the Guardians) and are more than capable of moving well on their own without Karandras should you wish to split them up to charge different targets (as they have Move Through Cover on their own).

Finally, taking the Scorpions instead of the Guardians lets you completely skip the pointless rules arguments that you would have if you decided to play with anyone from outside of your group. To me, that makes it FAR more worth it to take the Scorpions.

(Comparing the costs of each unit without the Exarch or the Power Swords, just for reference: the Scorpions are 170, the Guardians are 180.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/06 00:51:58


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