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greywulf wrote:
I addressed this above. Yes, the company in question has never released or produced any miniatures previously. However, the company who's actually handling the modeling and production has.

That's better than the information we had for Fairytale's first KS, but doesn't tell enough. If Alexander Lim and his investors do not have enough funds for both projects, I doubt Greenbrier Games is going to make the models for free. It's no different than a video game KS that's hired a talented group of engineers for the project. If they don't get paid, then what?

Different backers have different tolerances for risk. And you *can* have a successful project with red flags. I'm sure that had FG addressed various concerns, they'd have more funding. But FG has reached its goal, so you can't say the KS hasn't been successful for at least them.

lol, a whole nother Dakka page of discussion and I'm not really any closer to figuring out what's going on here than I was like two weeks ago.

I think I'll just sit this one out and wait and buy the few sculpts I really like next year when/if they hit retail.

Hope they turn out well.

*Also - think its really dumb to have the mixed sets like they do. I hope that's not how they are sold at retail. If, for instance, I really like the Alice in Wonderland minis, I'm not going to buy 5 different box sets full of minis I don't want to in order to collect them. Would make way more sense to have thematic box sets.

Schmapdi wrote:
*Also - think its really dumb to have the mixed sets like they do. I hope that's not how they are sold at retail. If, for instance, I really like the Alice in Wonderland minis, I'm not going to buy 5 different box sets full of minis I don't want to in order to collect them. Would make way more sense to have thematic box sets.

And miss out on all those dollars from people for exactly that reason?

I personally don't like the blind box style of product like heroclix etc and while usually limited to collectable games it seems not that much of a stretch for these guys to do that.

If the sculpts turn out as nice as they look I would consider a couple of individual ones from ebay or similar.

Schmapdi wrote:
*Also - think its really dumb to have the mixed sets like they do. I hope that's not how they are sold at retail. If, for instance, I really like the Alice in Wonderland minis, I'm not going to buy 5 different box sets full of minis I don't want to in order to collect them. Would make way more sense to have thematic box sets.

From creator on Oct 20:

@Moneypenny I'm going to tell you a secret. Per request of some backers, our box sets may shift after the campaign end to "theme" them better so that you can get all steampunk in one, all horror in another, etc. We just can't do it until we know which characters are finally unlocked. But shhhhh don't say anything yet!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/682539325/fairytale-games-the-miniatures-campaign/comments?cursor=4740126#comment-4740125


Also, an 11th hour update has been posted:

Hi Everyone! Wow, at the 11th hour we have REALLY come a long way. At almost another character unlock at $205k we are speeding towards breaking Kicktraq again! Can you believe that just today alone, we have unlocked a total of 8 Characters? Here's some statistics for you:



(Note: We just unlocked Lu Bu! So we now have 40 Free Minis.... deja vu in a good way! This makes our total miniatures available in this campaign at 95 and growing. VERY AWESOME!)

TRINITY! We unlocked Trinity! That is definitely pretty cool, especially since you can play as them or against them in the Dungeon Crawl game to be introduced next year, among other things
Seven Days of Kickstarter Tally:

Undead Viking
Little Bo Peep
The Voodoo Doll
Cao Cao (Boss Card)
Jenny Greenteeth
La Llorona
Wendigo (Boss Card)
Zombie Peter the Pumpkin Eater
Bandersnatch (Boss Card)
Mr. Sandman
The Nightengale
Lilith
Watson
Steampunk Emperor with New Clothes
Frost Queen (Boss Card)
Evil Queen (Boss Card)
Queen of Hearts.... Character Card!
Frost Queen.... Character Card!
Evil Queen.... Character Card! <-- New! For unlocking Lu Bu

Backer Voted Miniature (From Box Set#7)

So with the help of Slamfist Media and TheHatter, we have compiled a list of your TOP 5 characters that you'd like to see take this slot. We'll be giving you all 48 hours to vote and will announce who will be your Backer Voted Mini!

Day-1 Exclusives Redeux!

For those who missed out on the Day-1 Exclusive Cards, we really do want you to be able to get them. But, you will have to do something to get them. Here are 3 things you can do that will not only help this campaign reach more people, but also make things super easy for you to get the cards. Ready? You can do one or all of the following:

Facebook Like this Campaign on the Kickstarter Main Page
Share this campaign through Kicktraq.com
Give us a Tweet on Twitter
Go to BGG and give our game a "Thumb" or post some great comments
Go to our Facebook and "Like" our page
Go to the Comments Section of this campaign and say "Hi" to some of the really awesome people there!
Add to the Mystery Box (and get a Mystery Box Reward!)

Because we have the all-seeing crystal ball from Trinity, we can check! Well, not really. It's by honor system but remember, if you do these things, it will help this campaign during the last 11 hours and will essentially get you all some stretch goal unlocks going pretty quickly!
So it's the last half a day! Don't you have ANYTHING else for us?

Well, we definitely can't go nuts like the last campaign. But there were some talks in the comment threads that made me smile. I brought it to the attention of the team and they thought it to be pretty fun as well. So.....



Can you imagine? A bunch of items randomly appearing that are basically fairytale character heads! And these two will have to mad dash for them to gain that character's special abilities or powers! This will be a fast and frantic new edition to the Super Fairytale Fighters 2 Battle Packs.... FREE for the Big Bad Wolf tier and up!

And with that, the team and I are very excited to be here with you all during the final 11 hours! (Wow! I think we just unlocked Lu Bu!) Congratulations everyone...Time to edit the graphics!

 cincydooley wrote:
That's great that greenbrier did something completely unrelated to this company; it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not this Alex Lim company will be able to.

I mean, I find it increasing sketchy that this brand new company with no actual products to show for it is running a 2nd Kickstarter before any product has actually been delivered for the first.

Fourth project.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1396565454/a-card-game-to-beat-your-friends-senseless
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1396565454/created

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/682539325/fairytale-games-the-miniatures-campaign?ref=live
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/682539325

Wow. And they haven't delivered on that one, which is under a different name, either?

Don't hold your breath on it either.

They have entirely too much excessive "How to get rich from KS/ Crowd funding" to actually do what they say they are going to do.

The stink coming off of these "Projects" is enough to gag a maggot.

Call it my deep seated sense of being curious, but there are really some things that one would want to keep out of a project discussion if they were in fact for real. Advertising for Crowdfunding, resources on how to get rich, and excessive background on "Us vs Them and how to part people from their money" might be one of them.


If I pull out this card, what will happen......

http://www.kcharry.com/an-interview-with-alex-lim-kickstarter-campaign-a-card-game-to-beat-your-friends-senseless-by-artistic-justice-games/

http://thefairytalegames.com/

http://www.corporationwiki.com/Texas/Sugar-Land/alex-lim/39243345.aspx

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/141636/fairytale-games-the-battle-royale

https://www.facebook.com/FairytaleGames

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Artistic-Justice-Games/111100309062655


I'm sure there is a logical explanation...

The really suspicious part for me is how they have a KS under another company name instead of having the same name throughout. Who does that?

They were run at different times, for what it's worth. The martial arts game seems to have fallen off the map, and not much more has been heard about it since September.

On the other hand they still keep updating the Fairy tale website with renders, artwork, gameplay... so that makes me feel a *bit* better.

I figure at this point if I'm only out 65 from the original campaign, so be it. They sure did put on a good song and dance the first time around. I truly hope they can deliver everything to an acceptable level of quality, or they can kiss all these other games they're cooking up goodbye.

I'm curious- how many of you ever tried to read those comments? Ouch.

That is the issue.

The obvious attempt and misdirect.

Your "Well, I'm only out 65.00" is what is being banked on and I have a sneaking suspicion that it will be the same with the so called "Sacred 40, plus what else shows...."

The project, if you notice is morphing. It might have started out for some mini's, but it is not exactly for that now. They will probably go on to continue to update the website for a couple of months, then said owner will go on ahead and start up another one, probably using Al lim or ALE Lim, or A. Lim as the owner this time. Might use Farytale games LTD, or LLC, or whatever.

And under another company and name of owner as well, there WAS a card game, now there is not.

As to the comments? I read them all in my research, YOU should too.


There is an obvious attempt to use Kickstarter as a way to make money. Not exactly for the project, either.

Who exactly gives away 40+ miniatures?
What exactly was the original funding for, and what exactly is the funding for now?
Where is the common denominator in these projects?
When is the timeframe for completion of the project, and will the additions of all that cool guy stuff effect the completion- 5-6 adds, how much extra time do you need?
Why the need for the dual company's, dual names?
How exactly is this guys idea that he can make everything for everyone give him access to over 230,000 plus on one project, 130,000 on another project, and 8,000 on a third?

That's Almost 500,000 bucks in cash for ...someone. Someone using two different names and companies on three different projects.

2 created, two backed. 2 created 7 backed, when in fact there have been five plus, not mentioning the added partnerships and convoluted financing of OTHER Kickstarted "Games" though third parties.


not a bad haul for morphing project to project. Going to be great come tax time.

Next will be the cheesecake zombie of death in neverland fight to the death with MMA quality figures. (That should net them a couple of hundred more to round an even million.)

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
They were run at different times, for what it's worth. The martial arts game seems to have fallen off the map, and not much more has been heard about it since September.

On the other hand they still keep updating the Fairy tale website with renders, artwork, gameplay... so that makes me feel a *bit* better.

I figure at this point if I'm only out 65 from the original campaign, so be it. They sure did put on a good song and dance the first time around. I truly hope they can deliver everything to an acceptable level of quality, or they can kiss all these other games they're cooking up goodbye.

I'm curious- how many of you ever tried to read those comments? Ouch.

Not really sure how this makes it better. So what if they were run at different times? Is there a reason why company name A can't be the same creator for fairy tale games instead of having a new company name? What possible reason could there be for it to be separated into 2 different company names?

This was an interview by the "creator".

http://www.crowdcrux.com/card-games-thrive-on-kickstarter/

If you funded the card game, did you get what you funded?
Was there an explanation to the backers why they are using different names and companies?
Are the backers still given as much enthusiasm as is portrayed in this interview? Are backers being kept informed and getting their project?

What sorts of communication should a fairytale funder be expecting? Will they disappear after a couple of months only to come up with a new company or name?



If you were a backer, are you seeing the same amount of attention now as is spouted out in this... project?

Of course the funding is over, but now the watch on how this unfolds begins.



Good luck to all who funded, please watch this one as I am.

Something about this one just rubs me the wrong way.

Well, I can understand your concerns, but this is a very pessimistic way to approach things. (caveat, I did blindly back "Up Front" - though had I known the issues, I probably would have avoided it).

I prefer to take more of an occam's razor approach. Rather than thinking they're out to steal money for some nefarious purpose (which you seem to imply), I think they are a young company, trying to learn business methods on the fly.

Granted, this does bring a level of risk - one that I think is more appropriate to discuss. I'm not focused on the question "What type of company gives away 40 miniatures for free" but instead on "What type of company gives away 40 *exclusive* miniatures for free?"

Yes, that's right. They initially said the minis were exclusive. In my mind, the simplest explanation is that they had not thought through their project, and got carried away with their success.

This is how I see it:
1) They had a successful boxing KS/card game.
2) They decided to develop a 2nd game, while working on the 1st. During this process, they realized they could repurpose the boxing game, in a fairytale theme.
3) They decided to launch the 2nd game as a KS, with the fairytale boxing game as an add-on. They mentioned their dreams of expanding the 2nd game to have zombie/steampunk/horror-themed decks, to capitalize on current trends
------------------------
This is the part where their campaign begins to jump the shark
------------------------
4) Highly successful, the KS campaign unlocks each of the 4 expansion decks. And then even unlocks 40 miniatures that they promised to give out as free exclusives.
------------------------
Here is where they begin to modify their project on the fly. The quickly realize that there is a market here. Backers give them ideas, which they run with. There is the demand for *more* miniatures to go with the game. Already, this KS is going to cost way more $ than it brought in (see 40 free miniatures). *They* say that this was what they had planned. That they'd use their own $ to cover the costs, deciding it was worth the out-of-pocket investment to build a loyal fan base. I'm not so sure. But this raises another caution flag
-----------------------------
5) With the desire from investors to add more miniatures, they run some numbers and realize that it will be cheaper to create the minis all at once, and a 2nd KS campaign focused on minis would help with the incurred costs from the 1st fairytale KS campaign.
6) They launch KS #2.
7) They decide to modify the project again, envisioning a much larger board-game style that will utilize miniatures. Unfortunately, they had already said their core figures were "exclusive"
8) They go back on their word about the exclusivity of the first 40 figures. Backers grumble, but go along with the ride. Pledge levels have to be altered in the first week to accomodate this, adding to confusion for the rest of the KS.
9) Now the project is 4 full decks of cards, a boxing fairytale game, 100 miniatures, and a promise of new decks/minis and larger games in the next year
------------------------
Conclusions - I feel that this is a poorly run start-up, that is trying to learn what works, what doesn't, respond directly to investor input, and try to figure out who they are.

Concerns -
A) They seem to rush into things without a firm end-game
B) With split and changing attention, they leave behind investors who were committed to earlier visions/plans
C) They went significantly into debt with the 1st Fairytale KS
D) They haven't delivered on the boxing KS (see B)

Why you might still back them -
A) They have created a significant number of card/mini mock-ups. They are clearly juggling the work of a dozen different artists (presumably paying them), that are creating some great designs. Nothing I've seen has shown that they aren't 100% into making a game (though what it is....)
B) I don't fault KS2 for being so close to KS1. That makes sense (in a poorly planned sort of way) - Though the original boxing KS is another matter
C) Their end vision could be amazing. This I feel is the point of KS - backing the artistic vision of a creator in order to help them achieve something that was previously unachievable. Right now they have over 100 amazing miniatures. They have hundreds of art examples. If they can somehow manage to put it all together (combining elements from all of their steps/missteps along the way), they'll have an amazing game to produce in 2015.

So yeah, is it perfect? No. Not even close. But I imagine this is where "Up Front" could have been, had "Up Front" not had the added layer of the creator being involved in a major lawsuit.

Suspect first post.

I still think it's incredibly shady, regardless. Too much potential shell company stuff going on. No actual products released to date. Pretty easy non back for me.

 cincydooley wrote:
Suspect first post.

See, that's what I'm talking about. What sent you on the "suspect" path? Was my post too positive? Too optimistic? Did the post somehow convince you that I'm a shell for Alex's fairytale company? I personally don't see the evidence in my post for you to leap to this nefarious conclusion. Wouldn't a simpler explanation be that a new member might have found reference to this thread, say on BGG, and decided to add his or her perspective to the discussion?

Either way, welcome to Dakka Dakka!

The real interesting bit will be when the demo kits start showing up- supposedly they're being put together to send out into the wild.

We'll see how things unfold.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
The real interesting bit will be when the demo kits start showing up- supposedly they're being put together to send out into the wild.

We'll see how things unfold.

I don't feel that will be terribly relevant. The demo sets won't show whether they're able to create 100 minis, or thousands of cards within a budget and on time. It may provide an inkling as to how the gameplay is for the larger decks......but it seems that FTG already has their eyes on a larger target. These minis aren't terribly useful in the current card game, but will be used more fully in whatever next game they are in the midst of creating. Again, it's clearly not the most organized, or standard, way of doing things.....but it doesn't necessarily negate what they are creating.

tripleplay wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Suspect first post.

See, that's what I'm talking about. What sent you on the "suspect" path? Was my post too positive? Too optimistic? Did the post somehow convince you that I'm a shell for Alex's fairytale company? I personally don't see the evidence in my post for you to leap to this nefarious conclusion. Wouldn't a simpler explanation be that a new member might have found reference to this thread, say on BGG, and decided to add his or her perspective to the discussion?

Yes yes and yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though the word I would have used was "shill," not "shell."

I mean, I'll be blunt. I don't trust them until they actually deliver some sort of product. They've run their 3rd complete Kickstarter and have yet to deliver a thing. Your post, from my perspective, reeks of "insider information," which was my primary reason for being suspect of your post. If it isn't, it's a whole lot of speculation, which means jack gak.

I hope they deliver; I like a bunch of the sculpts. But because of the lack or history and the fact they're using multiple names for their KS throws up a ton of red flags for me. A ton.

.....



I went on ahead and had a five page paragraph written to countermand your rather unconvincing first page there.

I retracted it.

The information is there that there is an issue on the table that the project creator- Alex, Alexander, Al, A., AL or whatever he wants to call himself is either intentionally or unintentionally marketing several different projects with different companies, and that he is so jazzed with the " excellent fan base" that he doesn't even have the common courtesy to treat people with the respect that they deserve by using a gentlemans agreement that you ask for funding for a project, and fund the project and get it to the backers.
Instead, he makes the conscious effort to intentionally or unintentional try to mask the facts, start two other projects, and completely ignore the previous effort without explanation.

There is roughly over 400,000 bucks on deck here. not to mention all of the other back door funding that comes with places like Kicking it forward.org, etc......

Blatent disrespect in my book, as a Man, and a Business.

My research was done by the book, and dug into some questionable issues on deck. YOU are welcome to post information to the contrary, but I'm not going to sit back and watch as someone is outright deliberately trying to pull the wool over dakka dakka's eyes and try to work them like a carnival sideshow. If my information is in error, feel free to set the record to right.

You might think its cute to gak the gakkers, I find it disturbing.

Enough to make me want to dig deeper.

Be careful about pushing me into that. You might not like what I come up with.

With someone with that many Facebook accounts, YOU have enough red flags on your right now for me to have some fun and maybe even see what the Great State of Texas has to say about this sort of a business model.

tripleplay wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Suspect first post.

See, that's what I'm talking about. What sent you on the "suspect" path? Was my post too positive? Too optimistic? Did the post somehow convince you that I'm a shell for Alex's fairytale company? I personally don't see the evidence in my post for you to leap to this nefarious conclusion. Wouldn't a simpler explanation be that a new member might have found reference to this thread, say on BGG, and decided to add his or her perspective to the discussion?

You never really addressed WHY they felt the need to start a 2nd company just to make their 2nd KS while their first KS hasn't delivered anything at all

Eh, I've seen the same situation with another KS. IIRC, The creator had a personal account that he used to back KS, and another to have them funded. Or... something. Still could be considered a red flag, especially in light of everything else.

CMON seems to be doing the reverse! They seem to be a middle-man fronting different creators, so the post-funding results have been all over the place.

I think, more importantly, is to know who AL's "investors" are, the folks willing to lose money on the first KS. I never could find that information. Any backers know who else is behind the business??

 cincydooley wrote:

Though the word I would have used was "shill," not "shell."

I mean, I'll be blunt. I don't trust them until they actually deliver some sort of product. They've run their 3rd complete Kickstarter and have yet to deliver a thing. Your post, from my perspective, reeks of "insider information," which was my primary reason for being suspect of your post. If it isn't, it's a whole lot of speculation, which means jack gak.

I hope they deliver; I like a bunch of the sculpts. But because of the lack or history and the fact they're using multiple names for their KS throws up a ton of red flags for me. A ton.

Thank you for correcting my spelling...
As for my post being based on "insider information," - yes, I have read all the updates and all of Alex's comments on the two kickstarter projects. (This is opposite of the previous poster who declared "I don't read comments.") This is how I know Alex pushed the delivery date for the original KS back a month for every deck he unlocked (meaning he thinks it'll be 4-5 months past the posted date......I believe it could easily be twice that). And as for my comments being worthless if they are based upon speculation - well, what are yours based upon?

The next poster suggested there were concerns about this project raising $400k. Well, I'm actually a bit optimistic because of that - their previous campaign *did not* earn enough money (in my mind) to produce what they had promised. Now, though, $400k *should* be enough to create 100 minis, 4-6 decks of cards, pay the artists, shipping, and deliver the product to 1,500 backers. There are still concerns about a new company handling such a large job. But already they are delegating the miniature production to a company that *has* delivered miniatures before, and I am not concerned about them being able to turn the renderings into actual figures. For me, the risk is more about them managing their money, their time, and their vision.

I truly hope they take time to consider and plan what their next step is. People have invested a lot (see above) into their vision, which wasn't fully developed (or was developed, but they were quite open to changing the plan mid-stream). There is a huge potential that this will create an amazing game, even if their approach is to put the cart-before-the-horse. Assuming they are able to deliver on all of their promises (I still think it's a bit early to be all doom-and-gloom about the initial boxing KS, but that needs to be delivered in the next month - or by the end of the year - or else they'll be in difficulty) - I think they could be in a good place at the end of 2014, beginning of 2015 to create a great game. They have an interesting concept, will have 100 miniatures, and hundreds of art cards. That seems to be the expensive part, so hopefully they'll be able to focus their time on the game development to create their "big picture" game.

Oh, and as to them shifting accounts/names. I think that is more in line with their (frequent) mis-steps in business/marketing. I doubt they anticipated that people would read something nefarious into their choice to put the Fairytale line under a new name. Rather than thinking they are shuffling businesses to avoid debt (see "Up Front"), it makes more sense that they made a decision without thinking. They seem fairly competent about fixing/addressing their mis-steps, which hopefully will become fewer as they learn how to run a proper business.

tripleplay wrote:

Thank you for correcting my spelling...

Didn't mean to, actually. Thought you mean shell as in "shell company," which I did mention in my previous post.

The next poster suggested there were concerns about this project raising $400k. Well, I'm actually a bit optimistic because of that - their previous campaign *did not* earn enough money (in my mind) to produce what they had promised. Now, though, $400k *should* be enough to create 100 minis, 4-6 decks of cards, pay the artists, shipping, and deliver the product to 1,500 backers. There are still concerns about a new company handling such a large job. But already they are delegating the miniature production to a company that *has* delivered miniatures before, and I am not concerned about them being able to turn the renderings into actual figures. For me, the risk is more about them managing their money, their time, and their vision.

Well that's sort of the problem. The numbers don't add up for anyone familair with the costs of producing plastic miniatures.

Your average plastic miniature costs between $5k-10k for the mould itself. Even looking at the low end:

100 miniatures x $5,000 per mould = $500,000.

Now, Lets ASSUME that Greenbriar is either giving them a discount or can do it for significantly cheaper, say $3,000 per mould. Thats STILL $300,000 in associated costs going towards miniature production.

Now, lets look at something else basic...shipping. I'm going to make the conservative estimate (based on what I know about bulk shipping discounts) that, on average, the cost of shipping is going to be around $13 (and I think this low):

1269 backers x $13 per shipping = $16,497. So there's another chunk

Then there's the 10% they'll be paying to Amazon Payments/Kickstarter, so there goes another $40,000 total.

So right now, we're looking at a grand total of around $40k to produce a conservative 6,000 decks of cards (which is actually more like 54,000 decks of cards based on the card #s of 400+ cards per 'set'), pay artists, and come up with any other associated coststhey need. And that's WITH the incredibly conservative estimate regarding miniature production.

The numbers don't add up.

People have invested a lot (see above) into their vision, which wasn't fully developed (or was developed, but they were quite open to changing the plan mid-stream).

Stop right there. That's enough reason for MANY people to put this one in a high risk bracket. "Wasn't Fully Developed" isn't exactly a phrase you should be taking to potential investors (which is what, effectively, KS backers are).

Oh, and as to them shifting accounts/names. I think that is more in line with their (frequent) mis-steps in business/marketing. I doubt they anticipated that people would read something nefarious into their choice to put the Fairytale line under a new name. Rather than thinking they are shuffling businesses to avoid debt (see "Up Front"), it makes more sense that they made a decision without thinking. They seem fairly competent about fixing/addressing their mis-steps, which hopefully will become fewer as they learn how to run a proper business.

I don't know how you can say they seem "fairly competent" when everything else in that paragraph suggest otherwise.

Damn Cincy, when you put it all like that it really makes me feel like I pissed my money away.

It'll be interesting to see how things develop, to say the least.

There are some CRAY ZAY fans up in those comments section to. I hope things turn out alright for their sakes, because there's no telling what they'll be up to.

Those numbers do seem a bit...troubling, don't they?

Thanks cincydooley,

This KS is super appealing. Nice art, lots of minis, nice source material. As a mini line, this really appealed to me.

But you are right... it doesn't pass the sniff test. After doing minimal research, this appears to be vaporware... or at least having enough fulfillment issues to make me 'wait until retail'.

Just to echo some of what tripleplay said, the involvement of Greenbrier Games (an established miniatures company) is what gives me confidence. Alex and his cohorts would have to have provided not only project plans and goals, but also funding and funding plans. Furthermore, while the responsibilities were being outlined in the legal contract both businesses no doubt drew up, GGames would have no doubt contributed its expertise to the project planning and funding model.

I agree that the $ amount between stretch goals raises questions, but Alex must have convinced GGames of his ability to get this done. And its no small matter that GGames will be left on the hook for tens of thousands (or more) if Alex ducks out in the middle of the production process. If GGames hasn't expressed any misgivings yet (as their workload grew to encompass the full production of 100+ miniatures) I don't think we can arrive at many conclusions.

I bought in and I think it will be as important to keep an eye on GGames over the next few months as it will be to keep an eye on Alex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let me further add that each of GGames kickstarter projects raised $200,000 and produced around 30 unique minis on top of the publishing and printing of its game materials.

I'd like to point towards The Doom that Came to Atlantic city, a KS that apparently had very high profile people linked to it and yet turned out to be a scam anyway. Why? Because the virtual unknown running the KS campaign and the one who was in charge of the company and the KS funds wasted it all away on his own expenses without anything to show for it.

So unless GGames was the one listed as the KS creator, I don't think this means anything.


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ced1106 wrote:
Eh, I've seen the same situation with another KS. IIRC, The creator had a personal account that he used to back KS, and another to have them funded. Or... something. Still could be considered a red flag, especially in light of everything else.

This is totally different. This person is using one account to create one game KS and then using another account to create ANOTHER game KS. It's not a matter of backing with one account and creating with another


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tripleplay wrote:

Thank you for correcting my spelling...
As for my post being based on "insider information," - yes, I have read all the updates and all of Alex's comments on the two kickstarter projects. (This is opposite of the previous poster who declared "I don't read comments.") This is how I know Alex pushed the delivery date for the original KS back a month for every deck he unlocked (meaning he thinks it'll be 4-5 months past the posted date......I believe it could easily be twice that). And as for my comments being worthless if they are based upon speculation - well, what are yours based upon?

I'm going to be honest here. On sep23, Alex promises that the decks are being proof-read and being readied to print and that backers will GET the print-and-play as soon as they're finalised. Yet, one month later, has anyone from that KS received any of these print-and-play decks? They do mention they're going to release them one by one so obviously they don't have to wait for the whole thing to be finished before releasing them. Yet, still...nothing...

 cincydooley wrote:

Well that's sort of the problem. The numbers don't add up for anyone familair with the costs of producing plastic miniatures.

Your average plastic miniature costs between $5k-10k for the mould itself. Even looking at the low end:

100 miniatures x $5,000 per mould = $500,000.

Now, Lets ASSUME that Greenbriar is either giving them a discount or can do it for significantly cheaper, say $3,000 per mould. Thats STILL $300,000 in associated costs going towards miniature production.

Now, lets look at something else basic...shipping. I'm going to make the conservative estimate (based on what I know about bulk shipping discounts) that, on average, the cost of shipping is going to be around $13 (and I think this low):

1269 backers x $13 per shipping = $16,497. So there's another chunk

Then there's the 10% they'll be paying to Amazon Payments/Kickstarter, so there goes another $40,000 total.

So right now, we're looking at a grand total of around $40k to produce a conservative 6,000 decks of cards (which is actually more like 54,000 decks of cards based on the card #s of 400+ cards per 'set'), pay artists, and come up with any other associated coststhey need. And that's WITH the incredibly conservative estimate regarding miniature production.

You forgot the cost to sculpt those figures as well. Given the quality of the renders shown assume $1,000 per figure.. or another $100,000 in the money pit.

They'd like be around $0.60 each to cast... No idea how many figures each backer gets, but this will not be that expensive.. only a few thousand.

Those decks would probably come out to $130k just to print, not counting the art and design costs.