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Just wondering if anyone runs medics? FnP 5+ is a nice to have. Or are they just too pricey and FnP suck being limited to the squad only, not the entire platoon?

I run them all the time. They look good, and tie up enemy units trying to bring down your Platoon Command. Personally I think it's a necessity for Company Command Squads - it's pretty essential to keep your Company Command squad alive for as long as possible, and the 30 point medic pack greatly increases their durability. Sometimes medics aren't always needed - in particular if you ever field multiple platoons - for the spare 30 points could be accumulated to bring another Guardsman squad, or be spent on more worthwhile upgrades like special and heavy weapons.

It really depends on your play style as an IG player. If you want to keep your Command Chain alive, because it perhaps is paramount to your strategy (or if you have a lot of Guardsman squads kitted out for "First rank FIRE, second rank FIRE" orders), then medi packs are definitely worth it. If your platoons at there for distraction, or for sweeping in after an initial assault to claim objectives (or holding a firing line) then medi packs on platoon Command squads are pretty pointless. Go and spend the points on other things that are more useful to your strategies

Hope this answered your question!

G.A

If command squads had the "combine squad" rule, they'd be worth it. But they don't.
It only effects a small squad of 5, and that's one less weapon the squad can take.
It can be worth it on the CCS, but it depends on play style.

For what you get, I find it really expensive. For only a little more you could take a second CCS that would give your army far more. Given that even with FNP it's still only 5 guardsmen (yes one has three wounds), so still not that difficult to kill if the opponent tries.

So I would never take it at its current cost.

 grendel083 wrote:
If command squads had the "combine squad" rule, they'd be worth it. But they don't.
It only effects a small squad of 5, and that's one less weapon the squad can take.
It can be worth it on the CCS, but it depends on play style.

It doesn't limit weapon options - a medi pack is a non-weapon upgrade, and doesn't affect a Guardsman's weapon options. It doesn't matter anyways - Command squads can only take one special weapon.

agreed on play style though. as I said before, it really depends on how you want to use your platoon squads. However I think it's necissary on Company Command Squads.

EDIT: @Jangustus - a new platoon squad is far more expensive, as you have to buy 2 Guardsman squads to take it - that's a total of 150 points. However, if you have space for it in your army, then this is definitely better value.

General Annoyance wrote:

It doesn't limit weapon options - a medi pack is a non-weapon upgrade, and doesn't affect a Guardsman's weapon options. It doesn't matter anyways - Command squads can only take one special weapon.

No, a command squad can have 4 special weapons.

edit: To be more accurate, it can have as many special weapons as there are unupgraded veterans after applying any other upgrades.

A medic can't carry a special weapon because the medipack upgrade says "one other veteran" can be upgraded to carry it, precluding it from taking the other options listed like that, ie regimental banner and vox caster. It says after that "Any remaining veterans that have not been upgraded with one of the options above may replace their lasguns with" and then the list of special weapons.

As for the medic, I use him fairly often in my CCS but I fully understand he's not worth the points. If someone wants to kill your CCS or PCS a 5+ FNP save will not save such a tiny squad.

 tuebor wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:

It doesn't limit weapon options - a medi pack is a non-weapon upgrade, and doesn't affect a Guardsman's weapon options. It doesn't matter anyways - Command squads can only take one special weapon.

No, a command squad can have 4 special weapons.

edit: To be more accurate, it can have as many special weapons as there are unupgraded veterans after applying any other upgrades.

A medic can't carry a special weapon because the medipack upgrade says "one other veteran" can be upgraded to carry it, precluding it from taking the other options listed like that, ie regimental banner and vox caster. It says after that "Any remaining veterans that have not been upgraded with one of the options above may replace their lasguns with" and then the list of special weapons.

As for the medic, I use him fairly often in my CCS but I fully understand he's not worth the points. If someone wants to kill your CCS or PCS a 5+ FNP save will not save such a tiny squad.

I stand corrected. Apologies!

while the medi pack is sometimes bad value, I usually play it in my games as it forces my opponent to use more elite units if they want to deal with my Company Command Squad quickly, meaning I can keep elite units away from the rest of my army. Or at least that theory usually applies in my games....

A 30 point medic upgrade is doubling the cost of the PCS. It's definitely not worth it from a point efficiency standpoint, you'd be better off putting the points towards another platoon.

General Annoyance wrote:
while the medi pack is sometimes bad value, I usually play it in my games as it forces my opponent to use more elite units if they want to deal with my Company Command Squad quickly, meaning I can keep elite units away from the rest of my army. Or at least that theory usually applies in my games....

Even with 5+ FNP you're still talking about a squad of T3 models with no armor saves. Adding the medic just means you have to put a few more tactical squad bolter shots into them, it doesn't make it a tough target. And it certainly doesn't make them tough enough to justify giving up 30 points and a melta/plasma slot.

I run one in my Creed/kell command squad. Never even thought about running them in any other squad.

 Peregrine wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:
while the medi pack is sometimes bad value, I usually play it in my games as it forces my opponent to use more elite units if they want to deal with my Company Command Squad quickly, meaning I can keep elite units away from the rest of my army. Or at least that theory usually applies in my games....

Even with 5+ FNP you're still talking about a squad of T3 models with no armor saves. Adding the medic just means you have to put a few more tactical squad bolter shots into them, it doesn't make it a tough target. And it certainly doesn't make them tough enough to justify giving up 30 points and a melta/plasma slot.

That is true, but for some reason whenever I play the people who I used to play, they seem to automatically direct more shots into my CCS because it has a medi pack . It's a weird mentality, but it seems to work.

I think when you add in cover saves the medi pack becomes a more clear advantage. The ability to have two saves is always better than one, and in this way their survivability normally increases. Factor in some camo cloaks and you have a far more durable unit. Expensive? I admit. Worth it if it means I can keep my guardsman potentially shooting 3 las shots each per turn? I usually think so

You also have to remember it doesn't work on STR 6 or higher shooting. It's just not worth 30 points

 tybg wrote:
You also have to remember it doesn't work on STR 6 or higher shooting. It's just not worth 30 points

Generally most armies don't have an abundance of St 6 or above shooting, and if they do it's usually reserved for anti tank/elite duties. As soon as they turn them on my CCS, they've become distracted, and the rest of my army can move up and do their thing. If they use those weapons on their preferred targets, then you don't have the problem in the first place . The only weapons I can think of that would bypass this idea are heavy bolters and autocannons, but personally I don't see many of those around....

One of my main issues about medics is that they are single models and can be sniped out. If they die, the FNP benefit is lost and a fair number of barrage weapons will accomplish this. If you have other bodies take the bullet, you are trading your special weapons to keep alive the body that keeps them alive...

for less, and on every person including your company commander and all advisors, carapace armor is a nice boost in survivability if you want to spend points on the squad. It does not rely on a single model and gives saves against small arms, as well as chimera explosions and gets hot!

General Annoyance wrote:
I think when you add in cover saves the medi pack becomes a more clear advantage. The ability to have two saves is always better than one, and in this way their survivability normally increases. Factor in some camo cloaks and you have a far more durable unit. Expensive? I admit. Worth it if it means I can keep my guardsman potentially shooting 3 las shots each per turn? I usually think so

You know what's better than spending a ton of points to protect a chance to shoot an extra lasgun shot? Spending those points on buying more squads with lasguns to always shoot extra lasgun shots.

 Peregrine wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:
I think when you add in cover saves the medi pack becomes a more clear advantage. The ability to have two saves is always better than one, and in this way their survivability normally increases. Factor in some camo cloaks and you have a far more durable unit. Expensive? I admit. Worth it if it means I can keep my guardsman potentially shooting 3 las shots each per turn? I usually think so

You know what's better than spending a ton of points to protect a chance to shoot an extra lasgun shot? Spending those points on buying more squads with lasguns to always shoot extra lasgun shots.

This also depends. If I have already filled up one platoon with the maximum Guardsman allowance, for instance, then I would have to purchase another platoon, which I believe is 130 points (?). As I said before, if I had the points to spend on another platoon or had space for more Guardsman, then that option will always be better value than some poncey medi pack . I usually factor in a medi pack when I don't have a big enough point allowance to build another platoon of Guardsman without sacrificing other units - it will help my CCS/PCS dish out more orders for longer.

Better than Carapace armour at least, with so much AP 4 stuff lying around the place...

How on earth are you not going to be able to fit in more guardsmen? If your first choice has 5 infantry squads, you can move two of them over to a new platoon with a shiny new platoon command squad... which costs 30 points. It isn't like you need you blob to be more than 30-soldiers strong in most instances anyways.

 Talore wrote:
How on earth are you not going to be able to fit in more guardsmen? If your first choice has 5 infantry squads, you can move two of them over to a new platoon with a shiny new platoon command squad... which costs 30 points. It isn't like you need you blob to be more than 30-soldiers strong in most instances anyways.

I think Peregrine was talking about extra squads, not about shifting platoons about. No offense but I don't understand your argument here...

Extra squads... like a platoon command squad. If you've got a maxed-out infantry platoon, you can just move two of the infantry squads to a new infantry platoon. Rather than spending 30 points on a medpac to make your single PCS slightly more survivable, you can spend 30 points on a whole other PCS, and double your staying power/orders/firepower. Thus even if you did have no more room to take infantry squads in your infantry platoon, you could still be spending the 30 points you're using on a medpac for more units.

 Talore wrote:
Extra squads... like a platoon command squad. If you've got a maxed-out infantry platoon, you can just move two of the infantry squads to a new infantry platoon. Rather than spending 30 points on a medpac to make your single PCS slightly more survivable, you can spend 30 points on a whole other PCS, and double your staying power/orders/firepower. Thus even if you did have no more room to take infantry squads in your infantry platoon, you could still be spending the 30 points you're using on a medpac for more units.

If I did that, I would only get another PLS, correct? While that could be feasible, there are two problems:

1. it only marginally increases your shot efficiency - you get one more order, and no extra guardsman to distribute it to.

2. If I only had 30 points to spend, then I could not upgrade the PLS with anything, rendering it vulnerable.

of course, if you had more points then this is better than a medi pack, but for this argument I/the OP have assumed you only have 30 or 50 points spare. Like I said before, if you had a sizeable point deposit left over, then you should forget the medi pack and to for an extra platoon/more guardsman squads.

Hope this clarified a bit more

Never could justify the points for the medics. Everything about Guard is supposed to be expendable and the medic runs counter to that philosophy.

Which sucks cause the model options for medics really do look great.

General Annoyance wrote:

 Talore wrote:
Extra squads... like a platoon command squad. If you've got a maxed-out infantry platoon, you can just move two of the infantry squads to a new infantry platoon. Rather than spending 30 points on a medpac to make your single PCS slightly more survivable, you can spend 30 points on a whole other PCS, and double your staying power/orders/firepower. Thus even if you did have no more room to take infantry squads in your infantry platoon, you could still be spending the 30 points you're using on a medpac for more units.

If I did that, I would only get another PLS, correct? While that could be feasible, there are two problems:

1. it only marginally increases your shot efficiency - you get one more order, and no extra guardsman to distribute it to.

2. If I only had 30 points to spend, then I could not upgrade the PLS with anything, rendering it vulnerable.

of course, if you had more points then this is better than a medi pack, but for this argument I/the OP have assumed you only have 30 or 50 points spare. Like I said before, if you had a sizeable point deposit left over, then you should forget the medi pack and to for an extra platoon/more guardsman squads.

Hope this clarified a bit more

At the very least, you'd have the PCS itself to give orders to if you somehow managed to give orders to everything else. 4 extra lasguns and 1 extra laspistol is better than 0 extra, even if you don't have the points to upgrade them with special weapons. The whole point is that instead of buying a 33%-at-best increase to durability to the PCS, you can just buy a whole other PCS, which really is a lot better.

 Talore wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:

 Talore wrote:
Extra squads... like a platoon command squad. If you've got a maxed-out infantry platoon, you can just move two of the infantry squads to a new infantry platoon. Rather than spending 30 points on a medpac to make your single PCS slightly more survivable, you can spend 30 points on a whole other PCS, and double your staying power/orders/firepower. Thus even if you did have no more room to take infantry squads in your infantry platoon, you could still be spending the 30 points you're using on a medpac for more units.

If I did that, I would only get another PLS, correct? While that could be feasible, there are two problems:

1. it only marginally increases your shot efficiency - you get one more order, and no extra guardsman to distribute it to.

2. If I only had 30 points to spend, then I could not upgrade the PLS with anything, rendering it vulnerable.

of course, if you had more points then this is better than a medi pack, but for this argument I/the OP have assumed you only have 30 or 50 points spare. Like I said before, if you had a sizeable point deposit left over, then you should forget the medi pack and to for an extra platoon/more guardsman squads.

Hope this clarified a bit more

At the very least, you'd have the PCS itself to give orders to if you somehow managed to give orders to everything else. 4 extra lasguns and 1 extra laspistol is better than 0 extra, even if you don't have the points to upgrade them with special weapons. The whole point is that instead of buying a 33%-at-best increase to durability to the PCS, you can just buy a whole other PCS, which really is a lot better.

That might be true in most circumstances, but personally (and only personally ) I would rather spend the points left over on upgrades for my PLS (or even the rest of my army) instead of buying a unit that could easily be swept off the table on one turn with bolter fire.

A PCS with a medic can easily be swept off the table with bolter fire. 20 shots from a full tactical squad with bolters (and this is assuming it doesn't have an even-better, FNP-ignoring Plasma Gun) is going to get about 13 hits, 9 wounds, and will FNP 3 of those--meaning 6 wounds will be suffered by a unit with 5 wounds total. Even if the bolters aren't at rapid-fire range you're still getting hit 7 times, wounded 5 times, and saving 1-2 wounds with FNP. That leaves you with a pretty crippled command squad--and potentially lacking either the medic you paid 30 points for or the officer afterwards, depending on how your model placement relative to the shooters affects wound allocation. If the PCS is going to sit in cover all day then it doesn't really need the FNP and the points are better spent elsewhere. If the PCS is running around with the infantry then it's liable to be caught without cover to help the FNP...which means they'll be butchered anyways.

A PCS with a medpack is 60pts without even factoring in other upgrades and gets shot off the table by a 140pt marine unit just as easily as it does without a medic. For the same price as the medic you can have two PCSs. This means that either that 140pt marine unit needs to take 2 turns to kill both squads (meaning one gets to stick around to give its order) or it means that even more points of marines need to be committed to killing both units in the same turn--either way this is better for you than loosing your only medpack PCS in a single turn to the marines.

If you take an extra PCS but don't have the points to upgrade it just move some of the first one's special weapons/upgrades to the second one. Other than giving you extra lasgun shots to add to the mix this really doesn't change your shooting power. You can still focus fire both PCSs' weapons on the same target for the same effect as one PCS with all the weapons, with the added benefits of 1) being able to split fire when you don't need all the weapons on one target and 2) forcing your enemy to commit to killing two units to completely rob you of weapons and junior officers.

General Annoyance wrote:
That might be true in most circumstances, but personally (and only personally ) I would rather spend the points left over on upgrades for my PLS (or even the rest of my army) instead of buying a unit that could easily be swept off the table on one turn with bolter fire.

The point is that two PCS take more bolter fire to sweep off the table than a single PCS with FNP. Even when one of the PCS is killed you still have a second one at full health to continue issuing orders. By wasting an obscene number of points on a marginal benefit instead of buying more squads you're actually making your army as a whole less durable.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Certainly an interesting debate.

I reckon if I had 30 spare points, putting a medic could be a go.

I guess it raises the question of bodyguards. Does anyone use them?

A couple of bodyguards with medic/FnP could be interesting (or plain dumb). Getting some of the juicy orders out like BID need LOS which entails some return fire sooner or later.

I am not a fan of carapace armor for 4+. Heck even my 2+ tactical terminators seem to get instakilled easy enough these days.

Edit: The Emperor protects.

Bodyguards are just too expensive for S/T 3 blokes running around in Flak Armour. Their special rule isn't very good, either. It used to be in 5th you could allocate wounds to the commander and bounce two of them per bodyguard off the big guy to keep him alive long enough to get him to safety (and even then paying 15-30pts for that isn't very good when 50pts more gets you another CCS), but now with wound allocation rules for shooting that means you have to have him right in the goddamn front of the unit. If you take more shots than the bodyguards can redirect then you could be looking at one dead warlord.

As for Carapace Armour...it's not really worth it on a CCS, imo. Camo cloaks + cover are a better choice I think (though I'd just keep the CCS in Flak Armour...or in a Chimera!) I have found that Carapace Armour can be useful on meltagun/shotgun vets who've lost their Chimera. There's been a few times I've shot then charged a small/weak unit with them and won because of those 4+ saves. However, more bodies are still better than 4+ vets I'd say (but there's merit to running what you like even if it's not what's best).

 Peregrine wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:
That might be true in most circumstances, but personally (and only personally ) I would rather spend the points left over on upgrades for my PLS (or even the rest of my army) instead of buying a unit that could easily be swept off the table on one turn with bolter fire.

The point is that two PCS take more bolter fire to sweep off the table than a single PCS with FNP. Even when one of the PCS is killed you still have a second one at full health to continue issuing orders. By wasting an obscene number of points on a marginal benefit instead of buying more squads you're actually making your army as a whole less durable.

when I said "upgrades", I did not specify what upgrades I would choose. I would prefer a PCS with a plasma gun or something than another PCS, but then again, as I seem to say a lot, it really depends on my list and the situation. And also I believe if I put my PCS in cover with a medi pack, then it becomes a lot more survivable.

From the games I've played Bodyguards can help here and there in a CCS, but again, all depending. Carapace armour however is not a very good upgrade. There's plenty of AP 4 or below weapons that can wipe out a carapaced unit. However (without factoring Tau here) there aren't a great deal of long ranged "ignore cover" weapons, and that is where camo cloaks get the real advantage. A +1 to your cover save will almost always result in a save on par with or better than a carapace save. It's just the better upgrade!

Too bad it's taken me a few years to realise that....

General Annoyance wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:
That might be true in most circumstances, but personally (and only personally ) I would rather spend the points left over on upgrades for my PLS (or even the rest of my army) instead of buying a unit that could easily be swept off the table on one turn with bolter fire.

The point is that two PCS take more bolter fire to sweep off the table than a single PCS with FNP. Even when one of the PCS is killed you still have a second one at full health to continue issuing orders. By wasting an obscene number of points on a marginal benefit instead of buying more squads you're actually making your army as a whole less durable.

when I said "upgrades", I did not specify what upgrades I would choose. I would prefer a PCS with a plasma gun or something than another PCS, but then again, as I seem to say a lot, it really depends on my list and the situation. And also I believe if I put my PCS in cover with a medi pack, then it becomes a lot more survivable.

But its not being disputed that it becomes more survivable, its just that a second naked PCS makes your whole order base even more survivable than just giving a medic to an existing PCS.

 Krellnus wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:
That might be true in most circumstances, but personally (and only personally ) I would rather spend the points left over on upgrades for my PLS (or even the rest of my army) instead of buying a unit that could easily be swept off the table on one turn with bolter fire.

The point is that two PCS take more bolter fire to sweep off the table than a single PCS with FNP. Even when one of the PCS is killed you still have a second one at full health to continue issuing orders. By wasting an obscene number of points on a marginal benefit instead of buying more squads you're actually making your army as a whole less durable.

when I said "upgrades", I did not specify what upgrades I would choose. I would prefer a PCS with a plasma gun or something than another PCS, but then again, as I seem to say a lot, it really depends on my list and the situation. And also I believe if I put my PCS in cover with a medi pack, then it becomes a lot more survivable.

But its not being disputed that it becomes more survivable, its just that a second naked PCS makes your whole order base even more survivable than just giving a medic to an existing PCS.

I disagree. I would prefer a more survivable PCS to a duplicate simply for the fact that there is a lot of chance hanging in the balance of one or either of those squads surviving turn 1/2. With a PCS with medi pack I have a better chance of that squad surviving, and in turn potentially giving out more orders than two separate PCS's. Again, this is personal preference, so I'm not denying the fact that in some cases two PCS's are probably better than one.