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1) If someone wants to test stuff he should you vassal
2) All armies should be WYSIWYG and legal as far local tournaments goes . So if locals say no non GW models then those are not allowed.
3) Replacing a model with something that costs half or less what the normal costs , is seen as bad.


This is the rules we have here.

There are also some double standards out there - I am not sure what its like in the 40k scene but I personally know at least one high ranking WFB tournament player who uses proxies in tournaments and much worse in friendly games - usually whatever models gets chucked in a box for the latter. The stuff that "lesser players" get picked up on.............

I don't really care what my opponent uses as long as its fairly clear what its supposed to be - I'd far rather play a load of cool conversions or unusual models I have not seen than a load of unpainted models that are not even put together.

I use them once in a blue moon. I don't mind opponents using them, as long as I know what's going on and it's a fairly close match model-wise.

Makumba wrote:
1) If someone wants to test stuff he should you vassal
2) All armies should be WYSIWYG and legal as far local tournaments goes . So if locals say no non GW models then those are not allowed.
3) Replacing a model with something that costs half or less what the normal costs , is seen as bad.

1) I don´t know how to use Vassal. I will like to learn, though.
2) Most people do not go to tournaments. This is supposed to be a friendly game, with house rules, custom made campaigns and the like being actively advocated by GW itself. Also, some tournaments (most that I know) allow proxies as long as it is clear what do they represent.
3) Why? I´d rather see an impressive, awesome, high-quality, cheaper model than a lame, ugly as hell, low-quality GW model that costs twice.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
The reason why I posted this was because I had one game that was total bs. And before I get into detail about it this was a guy that I just met, not a friendly laissez-faire kind of deal. I always play competitively but still try to have fun with my games but this guy said two of his space marine squads had grav guns (when they completely didn't) and made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers? I thought afterwards: this guy totally cheated.... unquestionably. He not only proxied half his army but tailored his list at the same time. This is why I'm making it a new policy of mine: NO PROXIES!!! If I find a guy has proxies from now on I'm probably going to say something like: play someone else please. The question I find myself asking is: how do you say it politely?

A a matter of courtesy I don't proxy if playing a new player, and from reading these forums some players really do need to have a little more respect for their opponents. I can fully understand not wanting to play against proxies if your opponent is doing it to be a jerk.

 Ugavine wrote:

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
The reason why I posted this was because I had one game that was total bs. And before I get into detail about it this was a guy that I just met, not a friendly laissez-faire kind of deal. I always play competitively but still try to have fun with my games but this guy said two of his space marine squads had grav guns (when they completely didn't) and made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers? I thought afterwards: this guy totally cheated.... unquestionably. He not only proxied half his army but tailored his list at the same time. This is why I'm making it a new policy of mine: NO PROXIES!!! If I find a guy has proxies from now on I'm probably going to say something like: play someone else please. The question I find myself asking is: how do you say it politely?

A a matter of courtesy I don't proxy if playing a new player, and from reading these forums some players really do need to have a little more respect for their opponents. I can fully understand not wanting to play against proxies if your opponent is doing it to be a jerk.

But then again.... what´s the point of playing against a jerk?

Player 1: hi, I am a jerk. Ha ha what a pathetic army you have! Do you want to be defeated by me? I am such a good player.
Player 2: do you use proxies?
Player 1: no. You look dumb. I haven´t got a codex, but my bolters are S6.
Player 2: ok then.

The problem was not caused by the use of proxies. He was list-tailoring you on the go (and being a jerk).

" made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers?"

That's the real problem. He tailored his list for your exact army list. I wouldn't play him again for this reason.

If you make a blanket "No Proxies, No Exceptions" list, you might miss out on some games with cool people. For similar reasons, I dropped my "No chubbies allowed" rule in college and found out that they try harder...

I don't mind them using proxies, but I'd prefer to play against fully painted WYSIWYG armies.

Conversions? All is cool.

2) Most people do not go to tournaments. This is supposed to be a friendly game, with house rules, custom made campaigns and the like being actively advocated by GW itself. Also, some tournaments (most that I know) allow proxies as long as it is clear what do they represent.

but tournaments use the same rules as normal games and the armies are identical . there is no casual rule set in the rule book.

3) Why? I´d rather see an impressive, awesome, high-quality, cheaper model than a lame, ugly as hell, low-quality GW model that costs twice.

As I said that cost half what normal stuff costs , ordering or buying pre made stuff from modeling studios costs more then GW stuff , so is ok. But most of times proxies mean trying to pass old milk cartons as tanks and paint cans as drop pods.

I find that many people in casual friendly games are not as bothered about every single naunce of the rules and how it can be best manipulated as the very many RAW debates on this forum seem to be all about.

I totally agree about the bits of trash being a bit over the top but depends on the group - some people just want to play a game and roll the dice - try stuff out...............if they are all happy its good.

These days I think its more of problem that so many players don't have their own codexes - and its often the more competative ones - It would solve alot of arguments just by "Cool, thats nasty, can I see that as I had not heard that rule before" or similar.

Makumba wrote:

2) Most people do not go to tournaments. This is supposed to be a friendly game, with house rules, custom made campaigns and the like being actively advocated by GW itself. Also, some tournaments (most that I know) allow proxies as long as it is clear what do they represent.

but tournaments use the same rules as normal games and the armies are identical . there is no casual rule set in the rule book.

3) Why? I´d rather see an impressive, awesome, high-quality, cheaper model than a lame, ugly as hell, low-quality GW model that costs twice.

As I said that cost half what normal stuff costs , ordering or buying pre made stuff from modeling studios costs more then GW stuff , so is ok. But most of times proxies mean trying to pass old milk cartons as tanks and paint cans as drop pods.

2) I would say that the entire rule book is a "casual rule set". Players are invited to change things. And I am not sure about tournaments going by the book. Most of them change things, especially stuff like random terrain or random objectives. And many accept models from different companies or conversions as long as they look fine.
3) ok I get your point. I will not like an old milk carton as a tank, and if the army is composed of stuff like this, I will not play. It must look good on the table. "The Rule of Cool" applies here.

We normally play completely WYSIWYG, with three exceptions.


1) Broken or unfinished models. Obviously we all want to play with and against awesome-looking armies, but hey, it's a game.

2) New stuff. If someone wants to try something out once or twice before buying it, that's cool, too.

3) Rule of cool. Sometimes an ambiguous conversion looks way better than an official model. Ork Buggies, I am looking in your direction....


This doesn't include obvious cases where there's just no other option, such as when the model does not exist, or in the case of small wargear items (e.g. - grenades, pistols).

 kronk wrote:
" made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers?"

That's the real problem. He tailored his list for your exact army list. I wouldn't play him again for this reason.

If you make a blanket "No Proxies, No Exceptions" list, you might miss out on some games with cool people. For similar reasons, I dropped my "No chubbies allowed" rule in college and found out that they try harder...

It wasn't just that he tailored his list right in front of me, in that same game his team of grav gunners killed half my battle suit command squad in one turn. That just isn't fair!

Here is how I see it, I never play proxies, I always play with what I have, why should I let my opponents have an unlimited supply of units when I don't have that same ability? I just don't think it is right is all.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:

Here is how I see it, I never play proxies, I always play with what I have, why should I let my opponents have an unlimited supply of units when I don't have that same ability? I just don't think it is right is all.

You have the same ability.
You do not use them, but you can use proxies, especially if your opponents do it too.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:

 kronk wrote:
" made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers?"

That's the real problem. He tailored his list for your exact army list. I wouldn't play him again for this reason.

If you make a blanket "No Proxies, No Exceptions" list, you might miss out on some games with cool people. For similar reasons, I dropped my "No chubbies allowed" rule in college and found out that they try harder...

It wasn't just that he tailored his list right in front of me, in that same game his team of grav gunners killed half my battle suit command squad in one turn. That just isn't fair!

Here is how I see it, I never play proxies, I always play with what I have, why should I let my opponents have an unlimited supply of units when I don't have that same ability? I just don't think it is right is all.

So it'd be totally fair if he happened to have the models for the grav gunners? You're just privileging people that have more time and money to build more extensive collections. If you want to hold yourself to that standard then go right ahead, but if you're requiring that of anyone that you want to play a game with, you're just being childish.

 Happyjew wrote:
I have two rules when it comes to proxying:
1. It must be on the same base as the model and must be approximately the same size.
2. All models/wargear must be the same. If using DA as Guardians, then all DA must be Guardians. If using Plasma Cannons as Heavy Bolters in a Tac squad then all Plasma cannons in Tac squads must be Heavy Bolters.

+1. I use the same rules regarding proxies.

In many games I've played, we ended up with both sides just having lots of appropriately sized flags on bases, but since it was clear, it worked fine.

 Talore wrote:

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:

 kronk wrote:
" made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers?"

That's the real problem. He tailored his list for your exact army list. I wouldn't play him again for this reason.

If you make a blanket "No Proxies, No Exceptions" list, you might miss out on some games with cool people. For similar reasons, I dropped my "No chubbies allowed" rule in college and found out that they try harder...

It wasn't just that he tailored his list right in front of me, in that same game his team of grav gunners killed half my battle suit command squad in one turn. That just isn't fair!

Here is how I see it, I never play proxies, I always play with what I have, why should I let my opponents have an unlimited supply of units when I don't have that same ability? I just don't think it is right is all.

So it'd be totally fair if he happened to have the models for the grav gunners? You're just privileging people that have more time and money to build more extensive collections. If you want to hold yourself to that standard then go right ahead, but if you're requiring that of anyone that you want to play a game with, you're just being childish.

I wouldn't be posting this if he used real grav gunners, and it would be fair if he had them, but he didn't. Privileging people? More like trying to weed them out so I can play a fair game. How am I being childish? I learned a long time ago that cheating doesn't make the game fun, or give you any satisfaction, understanding the game does. I would rather play a different opponent than take on someone that doesn't want to play the game by the rules.

Cadre, would it bother you if I brought out my army (list before hand) and said "A is B, and x is Y"?

Being new to 40K I find proxies confusing. My question is how do people remember what is what?
With a lot of models on the field I have a hard time keeping everything in my own army straight.
With proxies I have to keep track of my opponents models as well, I guess that is my problem with proxies.

I have not been playing for very long so I may come to realize proxies are good.

 Warboss Gobslag wrote:

Being new to 40K I find proxies confusing. My question is how do people remember what is what?
With a lot of models on the field I have a hard time keeping everything in my own army straight.
With proxies I have to keep track of my opponents models as well, I guess that is my problem with proxies.

I have not been playing for very long so I may come to realize proxies are good.

You'll get better with time. After a few games you know what your army does, and after maybe 10 against a few different opponents you have a reasonable idea of how most of the standard units and weapons in the game work. Once you're more comfortable with the game and models, you can afford to give more attention to remembering proxies (at least, that's how it worked for me).

That said, a proxy shouldn't be very difficult to keep track of in the first place. There's a limit to what is reasonable...

A minimum of proxy is ok. For example two or three models that you dont have or a weapon that isnt modeled for same. Now when someone takes an ork army and says theyre space wolves or something the like then no. Seen it once. Twas ridiculous.

I wouldn't mind playing against an Orks as Space Wolves army, as long as they were modelled with skins and rode squigs into battle. You could call them the Space Squigs, with Squig Lords, Thundersquig Cavalry, Lone Squigs, Weirdboyz wearing Squig Talismans... I suddenly really want to play this army.

 Happyjew wrote:
Cadre, would it bother you if I brought out my army (list before hand) and said "A is B, and x is Y"?

Yes.

I do not use them ever. I let others use them but I complain about it.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:


I wouldn't be posting this if he used real grav gunners, and it would be fair if he had them, but he didn't. Privileging people? More like trying to weed them out so I can play a fair game. How am I being childish? I learned a long time ago that cheating doesn't make the game fun, or give you any satisfaction, understanding the game does. I would rather play a different opponent than take on someone that doesn't want to play the game by the rules.

I don't really understand how you think this is "cheating". With the exception of True Line of Sight, which didn't even exist until recently in 40k's development (and has numerous, numerous caveats, abstractions, and exceptions), the models have basically no role in the game from a mechanical perspective. Certainly, it's nice to see cool models on the table - that's the point after all. As far as the game is concerned, however, the visual of the model almost doesn't matter. That's why we have all the amazing conversions; if the model mattered, we would all have to use identical models for everything.

I feel like tethering your list to extreme WYSIWYG is pretty unreasonable. Nobody can be expected to have every variation of every model in their whole codex. Proxying and Counts-As allows for a greater freedom of list-building and thus greater game diversity. Some of my best and most interesting games have been conducted almost entirely with flags-on-bases. My opponents and I were able to experiment with numerous matchups of units, lists, and even whole codices in the time it would have taken a normal player to build up a single army.

You're free to play however you want; nobody's going to force you one way or the other. But sticking only to what you physically own seems like the game would get boring faster than if you could play around with all the things 40k has to offer.

I disagree with the sentiment underlying this statement. I think that's the core of the disagreement and I know which side I am on. The argument is essentially...

A: I should be able to proxy because the models don't really matter that much, and how could I be expected to have every model with every configuration?
vs.
B: I don't like proxies because excessive list tailoring is not fun to play against, and good-looking models mean a lot to me.

The argument won't ever die because extremists in group B don't care that people from group A don't get to field every configuration. And extremists from group A don't care if they are killing the aesthetic pleasure of the game for people from group B.

I'm in group B (except for the exceptions I mentioned before), but don't consider myself an extremist. I'd play against anyone as long as they are a courteous and fun opponent. I'd prefer to play, and seek out, someone who is more like myself. I'd rather field a cool-looking squad that's well thought out than proxy something.


Also, magnets?

Magnetizing everything still requires appropriate bitz, which not every box has. I'm pretty lucky that I get enough Nemesis weapons for all my GK, but other armies not so much. With GW shutting down bitz resellers left and right, it's becoming harder and more expensive to try and do this. It's still worthwhile on larger models, but magnetizing dozens of infantry is time consuming and inefficient.

I'm not saying I demand everyone to accept proxies; quite the opposite in fact. I usually prefer to play with real models. But to paint everyone who proxies as some sort of "cheater" out to "game the system" is a patently false and unfair assumption.

Besides, proxying and list tailoring are extremely different behaviors. Looking at your opponent's list and suddenly deciding "oh actually all my meltaguns are flamers, now that I see you're playing a horde army" is a dick move by anyone's standards. This is very different from saying, "Hey the list I designed earlier this week uses some bikes with grav-guns. Since I haven't received my models yet, could I proxy with these Ravenwing Black Knights in their place?"

How about "hey, I started playing Tyranids in 4th, so my 60 Termagants all have Spinefists instead of Fleshborers. Do you mind if I proxy them for Fleshborers?" Would anyone actually refuse to play this person until they bought another 60 Termagants and built them with Fleshborers?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How about "hey, I started playing Tyranids in 4th, so my 60 Termagants all have Spinefists instead of Fleshborers. Do you mind if I proxy them for Fleshborers?" Would anyone actually refuse to play this person until they bought another 60 Termagants and built them with Fleshborers?

I wouldn't as most of my Termagants are armed with Spinefists having started with the 4th edition codex.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How about "hey, I started playing Tyranids in 4th, so my 60 Termagants all have Spinefists instead of Fleshborers. Do you mind if I proxy them for Fleshborers?" Would anyone actually refuse to play this person until they bought another 60 Termagants and built them with Fleshborers?

Yes.
If you keep asking, you will eventually find someone who finds it outrageous.

Human nature.