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I prefer to play with, and against, fully painted WYSIWYG armies where everything is what it should be. It makes the game go smoothly, means you can tell at a glance what each unit has, and avoids any confusion on both sides of the board.

Proxies i do like, especially when they are well executed. one of the most spectacular ones i've seen is a pair of Nurgle Hell turkeys converted from Vampire counts Zombie dragons, complete with trailing entrails as the flying stand. Its obviously NOT the 'official' hell turkey model, but certainly looks cool.

Counts-as, i'm not too keen on, but i'm not against them. Its better if you keep them relatively simple and straight forward. Just after the new C:SM book dropped, having not had time to assemble, let alone paint the new Dev centurions to go in my IF army, i asked nicely if i could use some old broadsides as 'counts as' and since it was a friendly match, no-one objected. If i had continued to use the broadsides as counts as i could see some feathers ruffled. but thats more down to the fact that my group and i like to see painted unified armies. we wont flat out refuse to play against tinboyz, but we do request they make at least some effort

In tournaments, unless you have some special dispensation from the TO, you will be out of luck if your army isn't WYSIWYG, and proxies, such as the above mentioned Hell turkeys have to be given the green light (there has never been a problem, since its obvious what they are) and counts-as is totally out, again, unless you are given dispensation by the TO.

Just how far you will be allowed to (ab)use proxies and counts-as depends entirely on your local group, and of course whether you play in a FLGS, a club, or a GW store.

madtankbloke, I found your post really confusing to read until I realised you had switched up the meanings for counts-as and proxies.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
madtankbloke, I found your post really confusing to read until I realised you had switched up the meanings for counts-as and proxies.

A proxy is a substitute

Counts-as is using something to represent something else.

the meanings are very similar really, and are often used interchangeably

I use proxies when trying new list ideas.

Back in 5th edition, I was running a list with a CL, 2 units of 5 CSM, and 33 spawn. I had 8 spawn models and made up the difference with daemons and bases with no models. It did not look pretty, but did allow me to figure out how that list actually worked.

I go with these definitions:
proxy = substituting either something that already has rules in the game or some random object (this beer bottle is a drop pod)
Counts-as = Using an alternate model/piece of wargear that isn't an actual model in the game (converted, scratch built, third party, etc).
The difference being between "I know these look like Dark Angels, but they're proxying for White Scars" and "This is my homebrew chapter, the Space Kittens, they're counts-as Space Wolves".

We proxy a lot. Some of our meta have full counts as & proxy army. I have 2d cardboard cut for a DE venom, which is mounted on sprue and and pringle lid for the base. I painted the cardboard top view to look like a venom (Badly, I mean it took me 3 mins max)

With that creativity, who can say no?


But no one really minds as long as they are no one goes overboard with general size and area.

Ugin, the Owl King wrote:I disagree with the sentiment underlying this statement. I think that's the core of the disagreement and I know which side I am on. The argument is essentially...

A: I should be able to proxy because the models don't really matter that much, and how could I be expected to have every model with every configuration?
vs.
B: I don't like proxies because excessive list tailoring is not fun to play against, and good-looking models mean a lot to me.

The argument won't ever die because extremists in group B don't care that people from group A don't get to field every configuration. And extremists from group A don't care if they are killing the aesthetic pleasure of the game for people from group B.

I'm in group B (except for the exceptions I mentioned before), but don't consider myself an extremist. I'd play against anyone as long as they are a courteous and fun opponent. I'd prefer to play, and seek out, someone who is more like myself. I'd rather field a cool-looking squad that's well thought out than proxy something.


Also, magnets?

Spoiler:

Xca|iber wrote:Magnetizing everything still requires appropriate bitz, which not every box has. I'm pretty lucky that I get enough Nemesis weapons for all my GK, but other armies not so much. With GW shutting down bitz resellers left and right, it's becoming harder and more expensive to try and do this. It's still worthwhile on larger models, but magnetizing dozens of infantry is time consuming and inefficient.

I'm not saying I demand everyone to accept proxies; quite the opposite in fact. I usually prefer to play with real models. But to paint everyone who proxies as some sort of "cheater" out to "game the system" is a patently false and unfair assumption.

Besides, proxying and list tailoring are extremely different behaviors. Looking at your opponent's list and suddenly deciding "oh actually all my meltaguns are flamers, now that I see you're playing a horde army" is a dick move by anyone's standards. This is very different from saying, "Hey the list I designed earlier this week uses some bikes with grav-guns. Since I haven't received my models yet, could I proxy with these Ravenwing Black Knights in their place?"

You two have fair points. I think this argument is divided between two opposite polar groups, one being the relaxed, anything goes type of group, and the "extremist" strictly by the books group. Then I think it boils down to friendly versus competitive games which I don't really want to get in to right now. Magnets. Magnets are interesting and it seems like a lot of people are using them currently, I haven't but I think they are legitimate as long as you don't use them to tailor your list once you know what your opponent is fielding. Xcalibur I see you made a good point about my assumption and I think your right, I didn't mean to label everyone who proxies as some sort of cheater but it has been too long for me letting it slide and to me it is almost like they cheated to me.

I think you should read the army list, decide what you want, build that model, then use it in a game. If it doesn't live up to your expectations, put the model in your collection and wait for the next edition. This is a hobby, not a competitive game, the rules are far too poor for that.

 Oaka wrote:
I think you should read the army list, decide what you want, build that model, then use it in a game. If it doesn't live up to your expectations, put the model in your collection and wait for the next edition. This is a hobby, not a competitive game, the rules are far too poor for that.

So what happens when you want one thing and then 4 months later the codex is redone and you no longer want that option due to new rules? Some people don't have the money to drop on an entirely new army to keep theirs WYSIWYG every time a new codex drops.

People can proxy anything they like. I've fought against units of pennies before and it was just fine.

Playing always beats not playing.

If you check my sig you'll see what my Blood Angels look like. Or to save time- the youngest model in the army is from 1990. I try to use a) everything painted b) everything as exactly what it is. I'll never have centurions or some of the other new stuff (in this army at least) but such is the way of it. That's my choice.

That said I have no problem with proxies. You can't always get what you want and sometimes you want to try something out before you spend $$. So long as it's clear (or just a friendly) I can't see how it matters.

I have no problem with anyone proxying a model they actually own, but which happens to be broken/missing/in disrepair.

I have no problem with my opponent proxying something in a friendly game, provided it's clear what it is.

I will proxy something if I want to see how it plays, to get an idea of how something works before I buy it. I like weird combinations that aren't popular, and sometimes I find that they don't work. (Sometimes they DO!)

 Oaka wrote:
I think you should read the army list, decide what you want, build that model, then use it in a game. If it doesn't live up to your expectations, put the model in your collection and wait for the next edition. This is a hobby, not a competitive game, the rules are far too poor for that.

This is how it should be done if we were talking about a video game or something.

But models are... awfully expensive. And they take a lot of time and work. And "wait for the next edition" only works if you play marines. Dark Eldars or Necrons have been over a decade without new rules, and Necrons were completely redone. And then you have the Sisters or the Lost and the Damned. "Wait until it gets fixed" is not a valid solution.

Trying something before getting committed should be considered the norm, and not frowned upon. If you are rich enough to get everything WYSIWYG, do not get mad at people using proxies or count as. Instead, be happy you are rich.

 Happyjew wrote:


So what happens when you want one thing and then 4 months later the codex is redone and you no longer want that option due to new rules? Some people don't have the money to drop on an entirely new army to keep theirs WYSIWYG every time a new codex drops.

That's a good point. I wouldn't have a problem with a weapon proxy, it was more along the lines of using completely different models to represent other things that confuses me and which i disagree with. I've certainly used models with weapons before as if they didn't have that weapon because I hadn't gotten around to removing it before the game.

It's the 'This Dread Knight is a Riptide' proxy situation that I was referring to, which happens quite a bit while people are testing out different allies to use with their main army. I'm not a fan of it, but I play the game for its visual appeal so of course it's just my opinion.

Personally I don't. I play WYSIWYG as much as humanly possible (with the exception of vehicle upgrades - some of my vehicles have Storm Bolters which I don't buy). I'll even not field something if I don't have the right model for it, even if to do so puts me at a disadvantage. I even do that in the 40K RPG's. And Necromunda. Don't have a Deathwatch model with a Combi-Plasma and a Power Sword? I won't make a character with that combination. My Delaque's would be better off with another Lasgun but I'm using all my Delaque Lasgun models already (but not my Autoguns?), then I'll take an Autogun.

Weirdly it makes me less interested in 40K. When I get told that a "need" a Thunderfire Cannon and a Hunter, or more Bikes, my response is always "No.".

I use proxies myself, so of course I allow it.

I've got about 2000 points worth of Space Marines. Not a single one of them (except the four drop pods) are GW make. I use some GW weapons so that I can present a coherent and recognisable wargear selection to my opponent. The models I use are intended as the final army and not as a trial or stepping stone.

For proxies I hold a lion's share of these self-imposed limitations as mandatory, although one of my friends has it as mandatory that as few as possible of his models should actually make sense. A Tau Firewarrior is obviously a Mandrake!

My army is made up of Scibor Marines. The bulk of the army are tactical marines which use Celtic Veteran models. Most elite models use Lion shoulder pads with Spartans being devastators and Romans being terminators. Egyptians make for one-off models such as Lone Wolves. I play them as either Space Wolves or Dark Angels, where I can field a large point value in Space Wolves, mostly due to larger number of HQ, Lone Wolves and Thunder Bear Cavalry. Each model is about 25% larger than the GW equivalent except for Bjorn Fellhand who laughs at puny Riptides and is about 125% larger than a dreadnought.

Suffice to say, I struggle to get cover saves.

Sure, we proxy all the time.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Personally I don't. I play WYSIWYG as much as humanly possible (with the exception of vehicle upgrades - some of my vehicles have Storm Bolters which I don't buy). I'll even not field something if I don't have the right model for it, even if to do so puts me at a disadvantage. I even do that in the 40K RPG's. And Necromunda. Don't have a Deathwatch model with a Combi-Plasma and a Power Sword? I won't make a character with that combination. My Delaque's would be better off with another Lasgun but I'm using all my Delaque Lasgun models already (but not my Autoguns?), then I'll take an Autogun.

Weirdly it makes me less interested in 40K. When I get told that a "need" a Thunderfire Cannon and a Hunter, or more Bikes, my response is always "No.".

Me too. I buy models I like the look of, then use them. The only proxying I do is when I can't use the model as-is - for example the fat 2nd edition Cadian lieutenant. I'd prefer to simply pay 2 points and give him a shotgun, but that's not in the army list. If my opponent insists, I'll use it as a boltgun instead.

To try new lists/armies I say go for it (for instance, if you are a sm player and are thinking about trying tau), but keep it consistent (don't try bolter joe 1 actually has a HB, and bolter joe 2 is in fact your captain)

In our club, gear proxies are often allowed to be tried and tinkered with for quite some time. Now if you've been playing the same army for a year and haven't yet put a Meltagun on that guy you've fielded instead of a Bolter of a different color...come on now.

We also allow proxies for new models for testing, but again...timing is everything. If you keep doing it in such a way that you obviously should just buy the model....it is courtesy to get the model if you can.

Bring an Optimus Prime Pinata with paper towel rolls attached to it for weapons and try to pretend it is a Titan? Yes, we told that player go feth off.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
In our club, gear proxies are often allowed to be tried and tinkered with for quite some time. Now if you've been playing the same army for a year and haven't yet put a Meltagun on that guy you've fielded instead of a Bolter of a different color...come on now.

We also allow proxies for new models for testing, but again...timing is everything. If you keep doing it in such a way that you obviously should just buy the model....it is courtesy to get the model if you can.

Bring an Optimus Prime Pinata with paper towel rolls attached to it for weapons and try to pretend it is a Titan? Yes, we told that player go feth off.

I agree with all of this, except I would allow the pinata, its just too damn funny

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Bring an Optimus Prime Pinata with paper towel rolls attached to it for weapons and try to pretend it is a Titan? Yes, we told that player go feth off.

Do you hate fun? Optimus Prime Pinata Titan sounds amazing.

"SMASH THE TITAN OF THE FALSE EMPEROR! IT HAS CANDY INSIDE! SWEETS FOR THE SWEET THRONE!"

I just got back into the hobby after a decade hiatus. A lot has changed since then, and rather than going out and buying something I may potentially not like for my Imperial Guard, my opponents have been gracious enough to let me proxy models and vehicles before spending the cash. Of course, I always ask permission first; it's a gentlemen's game after all.

Thus far, I haven't received any complaints (to my face...?) because I ensure the proxies are clearly defined afore the battle starts (always bring pen and paper!) and are similar in size to the model/unit being proxied. A Leman Russ Battle Tank model from 3rd edition is not that different from this edition's Punisher (barring the hilarious amount of dakka the Punisher can churn out). This allows me to try out different units and combinations without making a monetary investment, and we all know this hobby isn't exactly cheap. However, now that I've a dozen games under my belt, I tend to use proxies less and less because I know what I like and I've the funds to purchase them. Were the proxy and play test PBS fellows worth the eBay investment for the real deal? Totally.

So long as you secure your opponent's blessing beforehand, and are clear about what is what, I feel there isn't really a problem. Just be polite and sensible about it. And if they decline your use of proxies, oh well, write a new list. At the end of the day it's still just a game.

Hey we just had a game with King Kong ( a summoned Deamon embodiing the local primatives Beast God) versus Ork Stompa

Plus there are certain GW models I just don't want - Centurions for instance - I would far rather see proxies on the table than have to look at them.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
I think you should read the army list, decide what you want, build that model, then use it in a game. If it doesn't live up to your expectations, put the model in your collection and wait for the next edition. This is a hobby, not a competitive game, the rules are far too poor for that.

So what happens when you want one thing and then 4 months later the codex is redone and you no longer want that option due to new rules? Some people don't have the money to drop on an entirely new army to keep theirs WYSIWYG every time a new codex drops.

They will say that you should not be in the hobby then, because you can't afford it then.

I am flabbergasted how alot of people tell us how the game should be played.

Davor wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
I think you should read the army list, decide what you want, build that model, then use it in a game. If it doesn't live up to your expectations, put the model in your collection and wait for the next edition. This is a hobby, not a competitive game, the rules are far too poor for that.

So what happens when you want one thing and then 4 months later the codex is redone and you no longer want that option due to new rules? Some people don't have the money to drop on an entirely new army to keep theirs WYSIWYG every time a new codex drops.

They will say that you should not be in the hobby then, because you can't afford it then.

I am flabbergasted how alot of people tell us how the game should be played.

Some people started this hobby when they had money. Now they are working a lower paying job and/or have more financial obligations. Who is to say they are not allowed to play?

If someone doesn't want to play against me because I'm using proxies, I don't care. I know of plenty other people who will play regardless. Sometimes people just want to play a game with little plastic (or metal/finecast) soldiers.

As someone who advocated for WYSIWYG and against power-gaming, I have to say I am totally fine with proxies if they're for Rule of Cool reasons. Again, I hate the Warbuggy model, and I think Centurions are painful to look at. I have no problem with conversions, proxies, counts-as, whatever. I just prefer someone an opponent who tries to make their army look cool and isn't making changes to WAAC.

There are plenty of power-gamers who have WYSIWYG armies that are no fun.

Everyone should only use the proper model with WYSIWYG war gear, painted, and on a scenic base.

If not, then you're having fun the wrong way and you're a nonconformist terrorist. No one likes nonconformist terrorists.

Also, this model exists. How many things can they put a marine inside of?

Davor wrote:

They will say that you should not be in the hobby then, because you can't afford it then.

I am flabbergasted how alot of people tell us how the game should be played.

Happyjew wrote:

Some people started this hobby when they had money. Now they are working a lower paying job and/or have more financial obligations. Who is to say they are not allowed to play?

If someone doesn't want to play against me because I'm using proxies, I don't care. I know of plenty other people who will play regardless. Sometimes people just want to play a game with little plastic (or metal/finecast) soldiers.

You both need to get over yourselves, just a little bit. I'm not saying I won't play against you because you don't have enough money to be in the hobby, I'm saying you should use the models you have rather than pretend they are something else because you don't like the rules for the models you bought. If you can field a legal army using Citadel miniatures, that is what you should do. Don't get regrets over how you built and modeled your miniatures, and expect me to be OK with it. If a new edition or new codex drops that makes a unit choice seem sub-par, then you should use it until you purchase and build the models to phase it out. You shouldn't expect an instant proxy situation.