Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

New USRs:

Construct: Concussive weapons count as having -1AP against model with this rule. Melta weapons within 1/2 range and Armourbane weapons wound models with this rule on 2+ and double any wounds caused to them. AP1 weapon also deal one extra wound against models with this rule. (So, for example wound, caused by Meltagun shot from 6" would remove 3 wounds from the model)

Fleshless: Poisoned and Fleshbane USR's does not affect model with this rule. In the mixed units unit count as having Fleshless USR only if more than half of the models have it.

Flesh Core: Poisoned and Fleshbane USR's suffer -1 penalty for to wound rolls against model with this rule. In the mixed units unit count as having Flesh Core USR only if at lest half of the models have it.

Electronic: For each wound, caused by weapon with EMP rule (saved and unsaved) roll D6 and apply one of the following effects:
__1 - nothing happens
__2-5 - model suffer additional wound with AP2
__6 - model suffer two additional wounds with AP2 and have its WS, BS and I lowered to 1 for the next 6 game phases, including current one.

Exo Armour For each wound, caused by weapon with EMP rule (saved and unsaved) roll D6 and apply one of the following effects:
__1 - nothing happens
__2-5 - model suffer additional wound with AP-
__6 - model suffer additional wound with AP2 and have its WS, BS and I lowered to 1 for the next 6 game phases, including current one.

Mechanical creature: Bestows Construct, Fleshless, and Electronic USRs



Changes to units:

Necrons:
All non-vehicle units except scarabs have Mechanical creature USR
Scarabs have Electronic and Fleshless USRs

Space Marines (All types, Including GK and CSM):
Power armor, Artificer armor, and Terminator armor bestows Exo Armour USR,
Centurion Suit also bestow Electronic and Flesh Core USR
Tehcmarine, Master of the Forge, Chaplain Cassius and Marneus Calgar have Electronic USR instead of Exo Armour

Grey Knights:
Dreadknight have Mechanical creature USR

Chaos Space Marines:
Fleshmetal bestow Electronic and Flesh Core USRs
Huron Blackheart have Electronic USR instead of Exo Armour
Thousand Sons have Fleshless USR

Imperial Guard
Techpriest Enginessers, Commissar Yarric and colonel Straken have Electronic USR

Tau:
Drones have Electronic and Fleshless USRs.
Stealth Suits (including XV-22) bestow Exo Armour USRs.
Crisis Suits, Broadside Suits and Hazard Suits bestow Electronic and Flesh Core USRs.
Riptide and R'vahna have Mechanical creature USR

Eldar:
Heavy aspect armor bestow Exo Armour USR
All Phoenix lords have Fleshless USR
Wrightguard, Wraithblades, Wrightlords, Wrainghtseers and Wraightknights have Mechanical creature USR

Dark Eldar:
Talos and Chronos have Electronic USR
Drazhar have Fleshless USR
All Splinter weapon have Corrosive crystals special rule: Against mechanical creatures weapon with this rule wounds 5+ and force -1 penalty on Armour save rolls against wounds caused by it.

Orks
Mega-armour and Cybork body bestows Exo Armour USR

I think this could be pretty much simplified down to the "Fleshless" rule, and just FAQ as to which unit's are granted it, such as most necrons, tau drones, and such. Otherwise, I think the rules cover the aspect pretty well at the mo

My goal was to make mechanical units vulnerabilities more logical - so no more poison spam bringing down wrainthlord, while meltagun (which is designed to blow up mech) only take one wound at best. Also antitank wepons taking out multiple wounds from mechanical MCs would add more reliable ways to bring them down and thus make them less overpowered.

Splitting it to five different rules give more fluffy solutions - so for example mostly fleshy Talos still would be vulnerable to EMP, and Thousand Sons or Phoenix lords, who are just haunted armour suits wouldn't.

I was thinking that mechanical creatures can only be wounded by poison on a 6+, but any weapons that would roll 2d6 Armour penetration cause ID.

What about Tomb Stalkers who already laugh at fleshbane and poison weapons?

Wow this seems incredibly complicated. It would be very difficult to remember which space marine has 1BS and which don't and then if you're wounded in your own assault phase you need a separate 6 phase count down. But mostly I would ask the question.

Why would a storm hammer be less effective against a riptide than against a winged hive tyrant?
Why would a melta gun be more effective against a battle suit than an ogryn? It's a heat ray, if your burning through electronics or nervous system tissue it's going to have the same effect (reducing mobility or just killing outrihgt). It has S8 which means it instant deaths the things that fluff-wise wouldn't be able to stand up to a super heated beam to the chest.

I understand how you could read rules like soulfire and flesh bane and poisoned and ask why it affects a mechanical construct but I think looking at 40k lore perspective you could imagine:
The corrupting influence of a bale sword corroding and rusting metal as easily as it poisons flesh
Splinter rack ammunition fired from dark eldar raiders could easily be charged with EMP as well as dripping with poison
Necron soldiers having innate immunity EMP weapons, I mean they were built to house their consciousness forever and to avoid death at all costs, you've got to figure they thought about EMP pulses when they were designing them (obviously there were some technical hitches scaling the tech up to their vehicles - or maybe it just matters less if your vehicle is destroyed than if your ever-living soul is erased).
Soulfire doesn't mean your soul is actually being burned out it's just a mechanic to indicate lingering damage. In the case of a heldrake it's probably because your on fire, in the case of an eldar farseer it's probably something else (don't know the fluff for thier soul fire weapon).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mezmerro wrote:
My goal was to make mechanical units vulnerabilities more logical - so no more poison spam bringing down wrainthlord, while meltagun (which is designed to blow up mech) only take one wound at best. Also antitank wepons taking out multiple wounds from mechanical MCs would add more reliable ways to bring them down and thus make them less overpowered.

Sounds to me as though a large part of your problem comes from the differences between Vehicles (and maybe walkers in particular) and monstrous creatures. You think because a meltagun can instantly destroy a land raider or a helbrute it should be just as effective on a riptide? I agree! but I think the problem is that there should be a single system for monstrous creatures and vehicles rather than to add a whole bunch of subtypes to the game.

Why is a Maulerfiend a vehicle and a wraithlord a monstrous creature? I'd say we just do away with vehicle rules altogether and have one system for all large unit types.

If a titan, a super heavy vehicle and a manta can all use the same rules (structure points) I don't see why vehicles (or at least walkers) and monstrous creatures cant.

I always imagined that the poison wasn't simply like, toxic, but also acidic in gameterms. So Dark eldar poison actually just melt's you as well as poisoning you, tyranid poison is like alien blood fromthe aliens movies, and such. How I imagined it hurt things like necron monsters.

wtnind wrote:
Wow this seems incredibly complicated. It would be very difficult to remember which space marine has 1BS and which don't and then if you're wounded in your own assault phase you need a separate 6 phase count down.

It would be complicated if there would be a lot of EMP weapons around. In the most cases it would be just the front one.

wtnind wrote:
Why would a storm hammer be less effective against a riptide than against a winged hive tyrant?

WUT?

wtnind wrote:
Why would a melta gun be more effective against a battle suit than an ogryn?

Maybe because you haven't read the first post.

wtnind wrote:
Necron soldiers having innate immunity EMP weapons.

Anti-EMP shielding is a pretty simple and cheap thing: just a conductor wire frame, so it should be installed on all military-grade exuipement. We can assume that 40k level EMP weapon is so powerful, that it can affect it's targets even through shielding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
I think this could be pretty much simplified down to the "Fleshless" rule, and just FAQ as to which unit's are granted it, such as most necrons, tau drones, and such. Otherwise, I think the rules cover the aspect pretty well at the mo

3 ed Necron codex clearly stated, that necrons are fluff-wise immune to poison, and have no poison immunity in the game only for the sake of balance.

My goal was to make mechanical units vulnerabilities more logical - so no more poison spam bringing down wrainthlord, while meltagun (which is designed to blow up mech) only take one wound at best. Also antitank wepons taking out multiple wounds from mechanical MCs would add more reliable ways to bring them down and thus make them less overpowered.

Splitting it to five different rules give more fluffy solutions - so for example mostly fleshy Talos still would be vulnerable to EMP, and Thousand Sons or Phoenix lords, who are just haunted armour suits wouldn't.

The game doesn't really need more paper-scissors-rock style 'vulnerabilities', it has plenty of those already.

 Mezmerro wrote:

wtnind wrote:
Why would a storm hammer be less effective against a riptide than against a winged hive tyrant?

WUT?

wtnind wrote:
Why would a melta gun be more effective against a battle suit than an ogryn?

Maybe because you haven't read the first post.

I did read your post, I was speaking from a fluff point of view. A storm hammer has the concussive USR so according to your rules ("Concussive weapons count as having -1AP ") it would be completely ineffective against a riptide. I can't see any fluff to support that. I can't see any fluff to support melta guns being more effective against Armour suits and mechanical robots than against regular flesh and bone people.

 Dakkamite wrote:
The game doesn't really need more paper-scissors-rock style 'vulnerabilities'

Why not? At least it would give IG, SM and CSM reliable ways to deal with Riptides and Drwadknights other than locking them in melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wtnind wrote:
I did read your post, I was speaking from a fluff point of view. A storm hammer has the concussive USR so according to your rules ("Concussive weapons count as having -1AP " it would be completely ineffective against a riptide. I can't see any fluff to support that. I can't see any fluff to support melta guns being more effective against Armour suits and mechanical robots than against regular flesh and bone people.

-1 AP means it would be upgraded from AP2 to AP1 (2-1=1) -> dealing double wounds.

 Mezmerro wrote:

wtnind wrote:
Wow this seems incredibly complicated. It would be very difficult to remember which space marine has 1BS and which don't and then if you're wounded in your own assault phase you need a separate 6 phase count down.

It would be complicated if there would be a lot of EMP weapons around. In the most cases it would be just the front one.

wtnind wrote:
Why would a storm hammer be less effective against a riptide than against a winged hive tyrant?

WUT?

wtnind wrote:
Why would a melta gun be more effective against a battle suit than an ogryn?

Maybe because you haven't read the first post.

wtnind wrote:
Necron soldiers having innate immunity EMP weapons.

Anti-EMP shielding is a pretty simple and cheap thing: just a conductor wire frame, so it should be installed on all military-grade exuipement. We can assume that 40k level EMP weapon is so powerful, that it can affect it's targets even through shielding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
I think this could be pretty much simplified down to the "Fleshless" rule, and just FAQ as to which unit's are granted it, such as most necrons, tau drones, and such. Otherwise, I think the rules cover the aspect pretty well at the mo

3 ed Necron codex clearly stated, that necrons are fluff-wise immune to poison, and have no poison immunity in the game only for the sake of balance.

Oh your last point. It's a fair point. Perhaps you could make the fleshless rule state something along the lines of. "Models with the fleshless special rule treat all poisoned weapon's shooting at them as poisoned 5+, unless the weapon's ordinary poison effect is 6+" That way, it still affects these unit's, so dark eldar can still hurt necrons, but necrons are semi-immune to poison. The fleshless rule could then be given to those models that would logically, be mostly fleshless.

Sadly however, even this is flawed, as the whole point of poison is to be able to deal with monstrous creatures, and if half of the monsters could get "Fleshless", it would make poison fairly pointless.

 Evileyes wrote:
Sadly however, even this is flawed, as the whole point of poison is to be able to deal with monstrous creatures, and if half of the monsters could get "Fleshless", it would make poison fairly pointless.

Poisoned weapon is currently useless against Riptides and Dreadknights due to 2+ save.
Against wraithunits on the other hand, i agree, it would nerf poison a lot.

 Mezmerro wrote:

Poisoned weapon is currently useless against Riptides and Dreadknights due to 2+ save.

Not if you are a tyranid MC with toxin sacs or a nurgle MC. In fact poison weapons and saves are mechanically different.

In fact your examples undermine the core argument (mechanical creatures shouldn't be affected by poison) since most mechanical style MC have 2+ armour and most flesh (and wraithbone) ones have 3+.

Let's not even get into the idea that the embodiment of poison and decay (GUO) are susceptible to poison weapons.

I think at the end of the day you just have to accept that the game is built for scale-ability, simplicity and balance (as well as gw QA can manage) so you just have to use your imagination when it comes to these USR. If you think it is too hard to kill a riptide then that seems like a different issue (you want it rebalanced). Remember if a rule is new it should both fit fluff, be balanced and be fun to use. Your new rules are only one of those (fluffy) and you seem to want to introduce it primarily as a rebalancing exercise (no offense, I agree with many of your points with regard to fluff and unit balance but I feel these are different issues).

 Mezmerro wrote:
New USRs:

Construct: Concussive weapons count as having -1AP against model with this rule. Melta weapons within 1/2 range and Armourbane weapons wound models with this rule on 2+ and double any wounds caused to them. AP1 weapon also deal one extra wound against models with this rule. (So, for example wound, caused by Meltagun shot from 6" would remove 3 wounds from the model)

Fleshless: Poisoned and Fleshbane USR's does not affect model with this rule. In the mixed units unit count as having Fleshless USR only if more than half of the models have it.

Flesh Core: Poisoned and Fleshbane USR's suffer -1 penalty for to wound rolls against model with this rule. In the mixed units unit count as having Flesh Core USR only if at lest half of the models have it.

Electronic: For each wound, caused by weapon with EMP rule (saved and unsaved) roll D6 and apply one of the following effects:
__1 - nothing happens
__2-5 - model suffer additional wound with AP2
__6 - model suffer two additional wounds with AP2 and have its WS, BS and I lowered to 1 for the next 6 game phases, including current one.

Exo Armour For each wound, caused by weapon with EMP rule (saved and unsaved) roll D6 and apply one of the following effects:
__1 - nothing happens
__2-5 - model suffer additional wound with AP-
__6 - model suffer additional wound with AP2 and have its WS, BS and I lowered to 1 for the next 6 game phases, including current one.

Mechanical creature: Bestows Construct, Fleshless, and Electronic USRs


Necrons:
All non-vehicle units except scarabs have Mechanical creature USR
Scarabs have Electronic and Fleshless USRs

Space Marines (All types, Including GK and CSM):
Power armor, Artificer armor, and Terminator armor bestows Exo Armour USR,
Centurion Suit also bestow Electronic and Flesh Core USR
Tehcmarine, Master of the Forge, Chaplain Cassius and Marneus Calgar have Electronic USR instead of Exo Armour

Grey Knights:
Dreadknight have Mechanical creature USR

Tau:
Drones have Electronic and Fleshless USRs.
Stealth Suits (including XV-22) bestow Exo Armour USRs.
Crisis Suits, Broadside Suits and Hazard Suits bestow Electronic and Flesh Core USRs.
Riptide and R'vahna have Mechanical creature USR

Eldar:
Heavy aspect armor bestow Exo Armour USR
All Phoenix lords have Fleshless USR
Wrightguard, Wraithblades, Wrightlords, Wrainghtseers and Wraightknights have Mechanical creature USR

Dark Eldar:
Talos and Chronos have Electronic USR
Drazhar have Fleshless USR
All Splinter weapon have Corrosive crystals special rule: Against mechanical creatures weapon with this rule wounds 5+ and force -1 penalty on Armour save rolls against wounds caused by it.

Orks
Mega-armour and Cybork body bestows Exo Armour USR

seems really complicated and unbalanced.

I also dont see why Tau suits and dreadknights have the "fleshless" rule. Both are controlled by a man in the center, at the control. If you penetrate the armor(fail an armor save) their flesh is going to be exposed to the posion and if they die, the whole mechanical contraption is going to be useless.

Also aren't space marines pretty much immune to posion. Now surely 'nids, DE, and nurgle would have some extra nasty posion that would still work on space marines. But wouldnt a posion that can wound a space marine on 4+ kill an entire platoon of guard with the lightest wiff?

Plague Marines and Plague bearers, arent they in the constant state of being posioned. Why arent they immune?

Concussive should still effect the mechanical creatures, electronics are just as (if not more) vulnerable to a concussive shock as flesh. If you don't believe me, try rapidly shaking your computer while it's on.

Why do people immediately think -1 is automatically the penalty the moment they see minus, even with AP being "the less the better"?

Here's my take on it, it's an interesting idea but it needs to be slimmed down. Remove all the extra rolls and focus on that which is important.

Flesh Core and Exo Skeleton is basically the same thing. Not as you present it, but in how they actually would be constructed. True, a Dradnought is more Flesh Core than a Riptide which is a really thick exo skeleton or a Dreadknight which is a really ridiculous exo skeleton.

The mechanical constructs (well, mostly Necrons and Eldar Wraiths) - make their rules unified and to the point. Rolling on a table each time they get hit isn't exactly something that's within the scope of the game.
My suggestion is that Mechanical Constructs would react to Armour Bane in the same way as a fleshling would react to Flesh Bane and then be done with it.
Yes, I realize the immunity to poison needs a counter, but another table isn't the answer.

Exo Skeletons, I understand that you want to add vulnerability to EMP type weapons (which is how many? (Insert luminosity setting) Eldar and... I don't know any more that's got access to EMP) but why an extra wound?
Why not simply "(-5?) initiative and weapon skill to any exo skeleton model hit with weapons with EMP or Haywire special rules" yes, hit, not wounded.

I find it funny how a being of flesh and blood with nerve system can have feel no pain simply from being tough and mighty while a mechanical being which such limited sensory input that they can hardly see does in fact feel pain.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Concussive should still effect the mechanical creatures, electronics are just as (if not more) vulnerable to a concussive shock as flesh. If you don't believe me, try rapidly shaking your computer while it's on.

The only reason some computers are vulnerable to impacts and shaking and what have you is they are not designed to be moved while operating, and doing so is there for bad for them. If you have a computer that is supposed to be moved while operating (ie a cell phone) shaking it does absolutely nothing (which is why cell phones generally use solid state memory and desktops generally use hard disks to store their information). Further more you can be sure any computer designed to be in any military application where it might get shot at is not going to be vulnerable to impacts unlike people which are always and will always be vulnerable to concussive force.

tl;dr military computer of the far future (especially tau and necron computers) would be designed to take concussive impacts while people still would not be.