Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I want to give you this link since I haven't seen a single thread on it so far: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/fire-raptor.pdf

I think that it's awesome
My favourite part is the BA-part, I love it when they implement unique fluffy stuff like this.

So what do you think of it?

Fantastic flyer priced relatively well. This thing is a huge leg up for CSM, SW, and DA which lacked really good AA where this can be some pretty fantastic AA when it DS behind enemy vehicles.

For BA this thing will be amazing if you can manage to get it on the turn before the descent of angels. The locator beacon will be a nice boon. If it comes in the same turn as the descent of angels the blind will be really helpful to negate those firewarriors shooting you up after you dropped in.

Space Wolves get a flyer, there is definitely something wrong here.

Seems nice, but the one grip on this is that I have to pay a MotF tax to get this where it doesn't exist on the Storm Eagle (which is about as rare), other than that, very nice rules.

It's pretty awesome, although it occurs to me as being more of an anti-infantry gunship than AA. The only passable AA weapons on it are the Avenger Bolt Cannon and the Hellstrike Missiles (although these are actually super crappy - they're Ordnance, so if you fire it then all the other weapons have to snap fire). That said, the Avenger Bolt Cannon's actually better vs Infantry, so I'd dedicate it's rather withering 19 shots at those targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ace101 wrote:
Space Wolves get a flyer, there is definitely something wrong here.

Seems nice, but the one grip on this is that I have to pay a MotF tax to get this where it doesn't exist on the Storm Eagle (which is about as rare), other than that, very nice rules.

You only pay that tax if you take multiple Relics of the Armoury.

Eck, I missed that they have hellstrike missiles rather than storm strike missiles. Yuck. Why would SM steel the worst IG weapon ever created?

The AA would come from swapping the quad HB for AC or reapers. 8 Str 7 TL + 7 Str 6 TL = 7 HP damage vs AV10 5+ jink on average. The missiles weren't even the most important part in my mind but with hellstrikes the missiles become active negatives.

The avenger bolt cannon isn't TL however. And the TL autocannon is underwhelming for the loyalist marines, when CSM get heavy 4 TL :/

Are the rules for the Storm Eagle on the nets some where? I can't find them

One hull-mounted twin-linked
Avenger bolt cannon

Looks TL to me.

It also has BS4 and Strafing Run so is unlikely to miss at all. It kinda beats the Avenger Strike Fighter in a million ways.

 ansacs wrote:
Eck, I missed that they have hellstrike missiles rather than storm strike missiles. Yuck. Why would SM steel the worst IG weapon ever created?

The AA would come from swapping the quad HB for AC or reapers. 8 Str 7 TL + 7 Str 6 TL = 7 HP damage vs AV10 5+ jink on average. The missiles weren't even the most important part in my mind but with hellstrikes the missiles become active negatives.

Indeed, but switching for an AC cuts down from 6 shots to 2... not that great. I'd risk the 6 S5 shots against AV10/11 if I was looking for AA.

Looks like a good flyer to me

 ansacs wrote:
For BA this thing will be amazing if you can manage to get it on the turn before the descent of angels. The locator beacon will be a nice boon. If it comes in the same turn as the descent of angels the blind will be really helpful to negate those firewarriors shooting you up after you dropped in.

The more I think about it, the crappier it becomes.
My DoA-units are more likely to come into play than this one and they all scatter D6", so that doesn't 'really' need improvement.
Remember: DoA only allows you to reroll fails, so no tricks.

I think the biggest strength is to let both come in on the same turn and Blind half of his army

 Shandara wrote:
It also has BS4 and Strafing Run so is unlikely to miss at all. It kinda beats the Avenger Strike Fighter in a million ways.

Yeah, but the Avenger is like 70 points cheaper than Fire Raptor. You get what you pay for really. The Fire Raptor is to the Avenger what the AC-130 is to a A-10 Thunderbolt.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Indeed, but switching for an AC cuts down from 6 shots to 2... not that great. I'd risk the 6 S5 shots against AV10/11 if I was looking for AA.

Against AV10 the bolter is better but against AV11 the autocannons are better. In my mind it is still very much in the air. Seeing as the turrents fire independently either option could have some incredible uses.

I think the real winners are the CSM with this as the reaper is just fantastic.

Kangodo wrote:The more I think about it, the crappier it becomes.
My DoA-units are more likely to come into play than this one and they all scatter D6", so that doesn't 'really' need improvement.
Remember: DoA only allows you to reroll fails, so no tricks.

I think the biggest strength is to let both come in on the same turn and Blind half of his army

The strength of the beacons is to blind a coteaz unit and land a unit of flammers to the max in perfect flaming range. I just wish they hadn't made Tau suits immune to blind. It could still help with blinding some QG, etc. units.

If you take 2 of these it could be hilarious to bring 1 on before the other so you can DS the second one with no scatter right next to blinded interceptor AA.

I am thinking the hellstrike missiles are a mistake. Has anyone ever seen hellstrike missiles on a SM flyer? Those SM are raiding the IG armory lately for their executioner plasma cannons and such but still...the hellstrike?

Alright, I think I figured how this thing works with all the rules applicable working in conjunction. Please correct me if I'm wrong in any way. I'll quote it from the news thread I posted this in.

I just realized it has PotMS, meaning the missiles can still be of limited use.

Actually, the more I put all the rules together, it can fire everything every turn, though only one missile.

Shoot single ordnance missile, then PotMS the Bolt cannon, and the rules for the independent turret side guns means they can always fire and don't count towards the total number of weapons fired, so long as the vehicle is eligible to fire anything, which it is. To boot, you can shoot at four different targets too; declare the missile at target A, then PotMS at target B with the bolt cannon, then shoot the turrets at targets C and D.

This thing keeps sounding better and better.

I just wish they hadn't made Tau suits immune to blind.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Darksun filters do that?

(what is the hellstrike missile again? and also, wouldnt the Power of the machine spirit allow the main cannon to shoot?

one more thing, would the turrets be affected?

Right, so the missiles are S8 AP3 Ordnance, but no blast.

PotMS would allow it to shoot, yes, that was my point exactly. Ordnance limits you in the amount of shots you can take on a vehicle, but PotMS allows an extra weapon to shoot at normal BS and at a different target.

Then the turrets can always fire so long as the vehicle is eligible to fire (which it is assuming no stunned/shaken or other effects) and fire at different targets. So at the end of the day, it can shoot all its weapons in a turn (one missile at a time though) and all at different targets.

So I am thinking you all are remembering 5th ed rules for ordnance and vehicles.

PotMS and the side turrents all allow you to fire additional weapons per turn and at different targets. Non of them remove any effect that would cause you to snap fire (ie shaken, etc.).

Ordnance weapons cause you to snap fire with any other weapons fired that turn.

This is clear then that all the other weapons snap fire when you shoot a missile.

BTW there is no "limit" to the number of weapons you can "fire" as a vehicle. There is a limit to the number you can fire at full BS.

 ansacs wrote:
BTW there is no "limit" to the number of weapons you can "fire" as a vehicle.

Except for Flyers.

 ansacs wrote:
So I am thinking you all are remembering 5th ed rules for ordnance and vehicles.

PotMS and the side turrents all allow you to fire additional weapons per turn and at different targets. Non of them remove any effect that would cause you to snap fire (ie shaken, etc.).

Ordnance weapons cause you to snap fire with any other weapons fired that turn.

This is clear then that all the other weapons snap fire when you shoot a missile.

BTW there is no "limit" to the number of weapons you can "fire" as a vehicle. There is a limit to the number you can fire at full BS.

Well here's my question then. PotMS states "the vehicles can fire one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted" on p.40. Ordnance states "a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make snap shots with its other weapons that turn". Now it appears to me that PotMS would function as a specific example overriding the Ordnance rule, which is the point of the rule. I personally find no reason you couldn't shoot all the other weapons in this vehicle after shooting the missile when all the rule specifically state they are exemptions through specific wording contrary to normal firing rules.

The rule on pg 80 of the BRB says ...fire 4 weapons at full BS... this does not contradict the default rules for vehicles that it may fire the remaining weapons as snap shots just lists how many it can fire at full BS.

 ansacs wrote:
The rule on pg 80 of the BRB says ...fire 4 weapons at full BS... this does not contradict the default rules for vehicles that it may fire the remaining weapons as snap shots just lists how many it can fire at full BS.

Sure, but my point is that PotMS would allow you to fire at the least the Bolt cannon at full BS due to its wording. The waist mounted turrets are the weird ones, as it just says they don't count towards total weapons fired.

@Blacksails
Weapons are all fired at the same time. It doesn't matter which weapon you fire with PotMS you fire them at the same time. It also never mentions snap fire in any way and in fact mimics the wording of firing weapons at different movement speeds. This would be a case of not contradicting the snap fire rule.

By this same logic snap fire would never do anything to a vehicle as the rules specify that it fires all weapons at full BS if it did not move. Clearly snap fire takes precedence in these cases.

 ansacs wrote:
@Blacksails
Weapons are all fired at the same time. It doesn't matter which weapon you fire with PotMS you fire them at the same time. It also never mentions snap fire in any way and in fact mimics the wording of firing weapons at different movement speeds. This would be a case of not contradicting the snap fire rule.

By this same logic snap fire would never do anything to a vehicle as the rules specify that it fires all weapons at full BS if it did not move. Clearly snap fire takes precedence in these cases.

I understand that, but if firing Ordnance means I'm restricted to a single weapon at full BS, then PotMS would bring that total up to 2, as it specifically says "one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted". So now I can fire a total of two weapons at full BS, even if one of them is Ordnance.

@Blacksails
So according to this logic you lead to 2 outcomes. 1) PotMS allows you to ignore skyfire/shaken/ordnance as these all depend on snap fire which according to you is ignored by PotMS. 2) USRs override the vehicle rules meaning that relentless overrides the movement rules for vehicles therefore all vehicles may fire their weapons as if they did not move.

Do you see how the vehicle rules have to be more specific than the USRs? Otherwise the vehicle shooting rules can actually be largely ignored.

I see where you're coming from. PotMS wouldn't ignore snap shots against flyers due to the wording in shooting at flyers/skyfire which would override PotMS's ability to fire an additional weapon at full BS. However, that is my point with the other two scenarios; why doesn't PotMS let you fire an additional weapon than normally permitted when shooting in conjunction with ordnance or stunned?

The second part of your outcome I don't quite follow, as its a single exception that is pretty clearly defined. You use the vehicle rules as normal, but PotMS would let you do exactly what it states; fire an additional weapon than normally permitted at full BS (emphasis mine). The rule inherently builds off the vehicle rules and modifies them rather clearly.

So a stunned vehicle that would normally be permitted to fire snap shots would be able to fire one weapon at full BS if it had the PotMS rule. At least, my interpretation so far.

The Space Wolf relic tax isn't even a tax since most SW players gladly take multiple Rune Priests.

You say they are contradictory rules. So which is predominant? The USRs or the vehicle rules? You are saying the USR overrides the vehicle rules. Therefore if USRs overrule vehicle rules the relentless USR does actually directly contradict the rules for vehicles moving and firing as all vehicles are relentless and so would always count as stationary for shooting purposes even if they move. This means all vehicles fire all weapons at full BS all the time no matter how far they move.

The other part is that this rule does not directly contradict the rules for snap firing as you get to fire an additional weapon at full BS which due to snap fire is BS1. You are placing the effect before the cause ie.
Regular firing:
Fire 4 weapons > snap fire remainder weapons > Fire remainder weapons @BS1
PotMS:
Fire 4 weapons > PotMS > +1 weapon > snap fire remainder weapons > Fire remainder weapons @BS1
Shaken:
Snap fire weapons > Fire 4 weapons at BS 1 > snap fire remainder weapons > Fire remainder weapons @BS1
Ordnance:
Fire Ordnance weapon > Snap fire remainder weapons > Fire 4 weapons at BS 1 > snap fire remainder weapons > Fire remainder weapons @BS1

Do you see how due to snap fire the BS of the unit is set to BS1? This is why PotMS cannot allow you to fire at flyers at full BS and why shaken has a meaning. You don't activate snap fire until you try to fire more weapons than you are "normally allowed to".

 ansacs wrote:


Do you see how due to snap fire the BS of the unit is set to BS1? This is why PotMS cannot allow you to fire at flyers at full BS and why shaken has a meaning. You don't activate snap fire until you try to fire more weapons than you are "normally allowed to".

PotMS wouldn't let you fire at full BS at flyers due to the specific wording of the shooting at flyers rules.

My point is that PotMS provides a specific exception that modifies the normal vehicle shooting rules. Arguing it doesn't do that invalidates the rule. The wording is rather clear in it as well, which states it allows another weapon to fire at full BS than normally permitted. This implies it still builds on the normal vehicle shooting rules but with a very clear, specific exception.

I make no claim that USR's override the vehicle rules; PotMS is simply a rule allowing you to make a change to the vehicle rules. Otherwise what would it do?

Basically, take every scenario you laid out, and simply do as PotMS says; fire one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. I don't see how this contradicts anything, makes blanket changes for all rules, or breaks anything.

Shaken:
Snap fire weapons > PotMS > Fire one weapon at full BS > Fire 4 weapons at BS 1 > snap fire remainder weapons > Fire remainder weapons @BS1

I don't see anything in the rules or in your explanation that would restrict that from happening. It certainly fits with what I suspect to be the RAI for the rule, otherwise what purpose does PotMS have other than allowing you to fire at a different target.

 ansacs wrote:
PotMS and the side turrents all allow you to fire additional weapons per turn and at different targets. Non of them remove any effect that would cause you to snap fire (ie shaken, etc.).

Ordnance weapons cause you to snap fire with any other weapons fired that turn.

This is clear then that all the other weapons snap fire when you shoot a missile.

Agreed with this, firing the Hellstrikes at all will make you shoot at BS1 with all of the other guns (aside from the gun you use POTMS on). The fact that the guns are independent has no bearing on this, they're independent as in they can always fire (at different targets), not that they ignore all negative effects. I'm sure if you somehow got Tank Hunters on a Fire Raptor then you wouldn't argue that the independent guns don't benefit from that USR.