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So came across this the other day:

Lizardmen spellcaster was using a AOE direct damage spell. It would hit all enemy units ina 24" range. Helebron was within the 24" range, thus making her a target of the spell. One of her magic items allows a +4 to dispell rolls on spells targeting her. Would I still get the +4 since she is a target based on range and not a direct target. Would that dispel the entire spell against all other units in range?

It did not matter for the game becuase I rolled good enough to dispell without the +4, just wondering how it should be played out.

Thanks

What spell was it? If it was something like soulblight where it says "the caster can choose to have this spell target all enemy units within 24"" then yes she is a target and gets the benefit. If it is something that happens to hit her (like a vortex) then she doesn't get the benefit.

I don't remember the name of the spell. It came from the Lizardmen book and his Lord only ever knows the one spell. It is a direct damage spell that targets all enemy units within a raidus of the caster depending on the power level.

If it targets all enemy units and hers is one you would get the +4as she is a target.


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If it targets all enemy units and hers is one you would get the +4as she is a target.


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Sorry for the double post my phone hates these forums.

That's lord kroak. I suppose you still get the +4. Though if you dispel it, he can just cast it again, though he needs the same casting dice of course. And do note that she gets only a +4. If you're using a wizard to dispel you don't get to add them together or anything. So if you already had a lvl 4 wizard caster you'd still only be +4 to dispel whether Helebron was targeted or not.

Amulet of Dark Fire
Talisman. Dispel attempts made against spells that target Hellebron's unit receive a +4 bonus to dispel.

Why wouldn't this stack with a wizard?

Well, I'm not sure.

But talismans only protect the owner. If a wizard at the back of your army is dispelling it's hard to see how the bonus applies. One user is taking an action (dispelling) and using the magic item of someone else. That's extremely unusual. In fact, I don't know if there are instances of that at all other than kind of unit effect things like banners. Khairos the Fateweaver can reroll any one die a turn, but that's pretty explicit.

Every single magic item there's an implicit understanding it only applies to the person who actually has it--like the talisman Obsidian Lodestone grants MR 3. It doesn't say just the bearer/wearer/owner gets it, but we know that.

But in other news it just seems to be wildly undercosted to have +8 to dispel on a not incredibly expensive char who isn't too shabby herself. That's more than +1pd per attempt and would make star bunkering pretty easy.

*edit, already got posted :(

She is awesome in CC, but she has zero defense....I think thats her only main defense, beside the fear thing

She is a glass cannon. If she is EVER in a combat where she gets hit back she's gone (unless you should be using your luck to win the lottery). If Kroak happens to have the ability to target multiple units Hellebron is his bane. I haven't read the new LM book yet, but here is how I see this particular talisman. Spells are going off, the sorceress is dispelling to the the best of her abilities, Hellebrons unit is targeted, the talisman goes off as an anti magic blast and makes the sorceresses job that much easier. That's the fluff version. You can't say talismans protect the owner just because that's typical. However, the talisman IS still protecting the owner (if that's how you need to see it) by adding +4 to dispel a spell hitting her and her unit, regardless of who else it hits.


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It's also not just an item you can use. She is 310 points and if you want to spend that on an elf bunker that is a very high price to pay.

No, it's not an item the dispeller is using. You choose who is dispelling and if you choose a lvl 4 Wizard, he is getting the benefit of an item he does not have and may be nowhere near. There is no instance of anything like that in the BRB (other than banners, but that's what they specifically do).

She's fine. You're going to lose this one. A death hag costs 85. +15 for cry +30 for brew +40 for rune of which she can only take one. Helebron has all 3, which would be 170 even if you could buy them all--which you can't. She's +1WS +1W +2I +1A +1LD. Not sure what all that's worth, but probably 50-75. Then you give her a deathsword with is another +1A at S10 with that hit-back thing. No clue what that thing is worth but easily 50 and probably way more. Then whatever the ability of dispelling like a lvl 4 Wizard is worth when targeted. If you add up all those abilities, she's almost exactly appropriately costed, which is rare for an SC. She doesn't have a ward, but she has abilities that no one else can get, like 7 +D3 S10 poison ASF attacks...

I agree it is unusual, but it states dispel attempts at her unit, not made by her, so it would currently, in rules, stack with a level 4.

Assuming @titaniumkiz's wording of the rule is accurate there is no reason it wouldn't stack with wizard level. It makes no reference to who is making the dispel attempt or their wizard level, just that any dispel attempts made get +4.

@DukeRustfield: According to your logic the item does not actually do anything as Hellebron is not a wizard (I assume, not very familiar with DE) and so is NEVER the one making the dispel attempt. Even if your army has no wizards it is still not H making the dispel attempt. I agree I can't think of any other item that works quite this way, but that just means GW invented a new rule. The ONLY way this item EVER works is if it is added to a dispel attempt made elsewhere.

It is a unique effect and should not have any assumptions read into it just because there is no precedent or we assume that as it is powerful there must be some caveat to it that the rules writers forgot to mention.

I guess that's a pretty good answer. Only Wizards or army-wide does dispels. And she is neither.

I think she's very powerful, however. She is nearly unbeatable by anyone in challenges. You basically just have to put up crappy enough units that it's okay she kills a ton of them before she dies.

Which is fine - there should be something tough in challenge but weak outside. She shoudl rip apart anything, apart from a dwarf lord with the Strength cap rune (that still exists right?) and rerolls to save; when they hit back he is likely to die.

Master Rune of Steel still exists indeed
quite good when coupled with 1+ re-rollable, and not too taxing on the items cap when taking shield bearers

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Which is fine - there should be something tough in challenge but weak outside. She shoudl rip apart anything, apart from a dwarf lord with the Strength cap rune (that still exists right?) and rerolls to save; when they hit back he is likely to die.

Which is why I'm thinking an assassin with the no-armor save sword and manbane is good.
+1 to wound and re-roll 1's; no armor save is pretty good.

-Matt

On the OT, I reckon it stacks with wizard level and it would work on Kroak - wouldn't work for a template though, as that wouldn't actually be targeting her unit.

Yeah Kroak targets all units within 24" so her unit is a target therefore +4 to dispell attempts even a lvl2 now gets a total +6 to dispel.

Helebron is good for her points but if you refuse the challenge she won't do 310 points of damage in 1 turn and you'll kill her. A tanked up Tyrant can kill her, blender Vamp or decent other Elf character is mutually assured destruction and the other Elf is probably cheaper.

Not so sure about another Elf character, isn't she 1 I higher than a regular elf Lord? If so her hatred, number of A and S10 should murder the opponent after the ASF cancelled each other out
Though she indeed is not at her best against crap rank and file, much better at murdering high value targets

All ASF attacks occur at the same time regardless of Initiative.

Ah yes indeed, re-read it recently ... but only partially

Wonder if it would be worth putting a death hag with cauldron in her unit to give her a ward save. quite the expensive unit though lol

Petrocco, I think the absolute only way Hellebron works at all is in a unit with a cauldron and a lot of witch elves. This is because the main thing Hellebron is worried about facing is a large unit of mediocre to bad infantry that still attacks no matter how many you kill, and the witch elves will make the owner of such a unit think twice before tossing it into the front of the unit.

In fact, the witch elves and hellebron are extremely good complements to one another: Witch elves, unbuffed, will never do well against anything with a quality armor save, and hellebron destroys that stuff without even trying ("Hellebron" is actually dark elfish for "She who kills whole units of demigryphs in one turn.")