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xruslanx wrote:

 Las wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
i don't know if aztecs really fit the elite warrior stylings of the space marines, given that their entire country was subjigated within a year by a handful of europeans. That's from a fluff/gamepoint point of view though, if you want to do it stylistically then all power to you. Would love to see it when it's done and painted. There might be some conversation opertunities from Lizardmen, they seem very aztec in their aesthetic.

History fail. The Aztecs ruled a hegemonic empire that lasted centuries and violently subjugated all it's neighbors. The factors that lead to its conquest go far beyond the appearance of "a handful of Europeans." Your euro centrism is showing.

Please don't accuse me of "history fail". A handful of Europeans managed to take the Aztecs subjigated enemies, and destroy the entire Aztec empire in a single *year*. I know it's very trendy nowadays to make it seem like Cortes was a "fluke", but that's nonsense. Mesoamerican warfare before the arrival of the Spanish simply didn't involve the outright destruction of one side by the other, because neither side had the means to do so. Once the Spanish arrived, the natives that they allied with quickly realised that they would be the key to their victory, and indeed that is what happened.

Quick, call me a racist again I love it

Never called you a racist, you're euro centric. You're failing to understand context. The Spanish had a multitude of advantages owed to a variety of geographical factors. They were quite literally hundreds of years ahead of the Aztecs. You do realise what would happen if a small detachment of modern military were suddenly dropped in 16th century Spain right?

The fact is that the Aztecs were hugely successful militarily in the context of pre-contact Central America. Their warrior societies were single mindedly honed for a lifetime of warfare and conquest. What about that isn't worth a SM chapter?

 Las wrote:

Never called you a racist, you're euro centric. You're failing to understand context. The Spanish had a multitude of advantages owed to a variety of geographical factors. They were quite literally hundreds of years ahead of the Aztecs. You do realise what would happen if a small detachment of modern military were suddenly dropped in 16th century Spain right?

The fact is that the Aztecs were hugely successful militarily in the context of pre-contact Central America. Their warrior societies were single mindedly honed for a lifetime of warfare and conquest. What about that isn't worth a SM chapter?

Space marines are generally regarded as elite warrior knights. The Aztecs used hordes of warriors to enslave their enemies, and ultimately were the horde that was conquered by an elite few. That is why they aren't space mareiney, gameplay/fluff wise anyway. Stylistically sure, they'd kick ass. But they were in no way synonymous with European knights, that space marines are generally regarded as being based on.

It's been trendy on these forums lately to have custom chapters that are "on the edge" of heresy so you could keep the aztec sacrifices as is if you want and still be fine...it's your army. I'd suggest Codex Space Marines because of the customization options available (chapter tactics, characters), unless you want to do blood angels for hordes of obsidian club-wielding assault marines (which would be cool, but maybe not as competitive). Iron Halos already kind of look like the Incan sun headress.

Ok! small update.
I liked that picture of Blood Jaguars that AntomanElven posted (I think it was the third one?) so I based my scheme on that. The actual models will have more red, but the army painter didn't allow me to do it. Im not sure about the scheme though, I'm not totally satisfied with it.


Also I'm going to do something similar to Dark Angels with my 1st Company, the "Jaguar warriors", will have a different scheme than the rest of the army. Here is the scheme for Terminators and Veterans:


I still dont know about the symbol either, but im thinking the one on the top left:

But it might be to "Tau" for a Marine army
Another option could be the center part of this image:


Both are simple enough to free hand, so it shouldnt be a problem

Symbols look neat

Don't worry about the dumbass commenting that Aztecs aren't worthy of having a SM chapter

SM chapters are founded about absolutley everything.
Ultrasmurfs are romans, White Scars are mongolians, Many other space marine chapters are founded to represent animals like the Space Sharks or the Red Scorpions. Pretty much anything could be a focus point for Spess Marines.

Hell I even have a small 30-marine army based on Halloween (painted some ghostly, some like pumpkins and some are zombie like)

xruslanx wrote:

 Las wrote:

Never called you a racist, you're euro centric. You're failing to understand context. The Spanish had a multitude of advantages owed to a variety of geographical factors. They were quite literally hundreds of years ahead of the Aztecs. You do realise what would happen if a small detachment of modern military were suddenly dropped in 16th century Spain right?

The fact is that the Aztecs were hugely successful militarily in the context of pre-contact Central America. Their warrior societies were single mindedly honed for a lifetime of warfare and conquest. What about that isn't worth a SM chapter?

Space marines are generally regarded as elite warrior knights. The Aztecs used hordes of warriors to enslave their enemies, and ultimately were the horde that was conquered by an elite few. That is why they aren't space mareiney, gameplay/fluff wise anyway. Stylistically sure, they'd kick ass. But they were in no way synonymous with European knights, that space marines are generally regarded as being based on.

White Scars. A mongol horseman is quite literally the antithesis of a Western European knight.

Also, the Roman army was about as far from medieval knights as you can get. Huge divisions of citizen soldiers culled from the reaches of an overarching imperial body is actually a lot closer to the more competent representations of the Imperial Guard than the Astartes.

Finally, the Aztecs did not use "horde" tactics anymore than the Spanish did. Both societies utilized mass levies of commoners as rank and file soldiers. The Aztecs nobility made up the vast majority of the warrior castes mentioned in the OP. A simple Wikipediasearch reveals that

The commoners composed the bulk of the army, the lowest were porters (tlamemeh [t͡ɬaˈmemeʔ]) who carried weapons and supplies, next came the youths(identified by the top knot hairstyle they wore) of the telpochcalli led by their sergeants (the tēlpochyahqueh [teːɬpot͡ʃˈjaʔkeʔ] "youth leaders"). Next were the commoners yaoquizqueh. And finally there were commoners who had taken captives, the so-called tlamanih. [t͡ɬaˈmaniʔ] "captors".

Ranking above these came the nobles of the "warrior societies". These were ranked according to the number of captives they had taken in previous battles; the number of captives determined which of the different suits of honor (called tlahuiztli [t͡ɬaˈwist͡ɬi]) they were allowed to wear, and allowed them certain rights like being able to wear sandals, jewelry, alter their hairstyles, wear warpaint, carry flowers onto the battlefield, pierce, and tattoo themselves. These tlahuiztli became gradually more spectacular as the ranks progressed, allowing the most excellent warriors who had taken many captives to stand out on the battlefield. The higher ranked warriors were also called "Pipiltin".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_army

If you want some relativly easy to freehand symbols take a look at Aztechnology from Shadowrun. A lot of what you're talking about has already been done for you by the guys at Fasa, then later Wizkids. But I'm really liking it. And if you want to do the human sacrifice thing it's not even really borderline heresy, people get sacrificed to the Big E all the time.

Jesus thats an awesome idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wrote a megaton of fluff about my custom steampunk guard. Is there anywhere specific we post this stuff, or just in the general discussion for 40k, i would love to show people some of my fluff

Canon fluff that is...not..any other kind of fluff.. ;P

A piercer heart wouldn't be a terribly difficult symbol to paint as your chapter symbol. Dark Eldar/Elves might already have transfers of something usable.

Thanks all for your input and kind words! Its helped a lot.
Ok, two things I probably should address.
1) No, actually I didnt know about the Blood Jaguars, apparently I was sloppy with my google searches But it actually ended up as good reference for my army so Im really glad people posted it (and it helped with my paint scheme too)
2) I dont actually mind the guy saying aztecs dont make good marines! I just have to bring up female marines and everyone will forget about my guys! lol. But seriously, how about I show you my sacrificial granite slab and ceremonial knife? It looks better when you're tied down....

Ok I went out and got a ton of stuff today. I got 1 Space Marine Commander, 10 Assault Marines, 10 Tactical Marines, 5 Sniper Scouts, and 5 Terminators so I have practically everything (I might still get a Chaplain, Apothecary, and/or Librarian) . I'm excited to work on them, but I went a tad bit over budget so I dont think im going to eat this month .

Small update as well, im adding in another warrior group to my army. The new group is the "Sun Warriors", the greatest warriors in the Chapter. But I cant decide if there should be 5 (relating to Aztec Mythology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_suns) or 13 of the greatest Marines in the chapter (relating to the 13 Heavens http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/ask-us/13-heavens-and-9-underworlds). But either way they will be the Chapter Master and Chief Librarian (Shaman), along with some of the captains. If I choose the 13 heavens then I can include all of the captains (plus another warrior, dont know who it would be), but the 5 sons is more directly related.

They'll be painted with yellow as the main colour rather than green or black.

Looks good so far! be sure to put try and include the cool obsidian swords(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl) the aztec (and others of the region) had they look good and and really catch the eye when done well as opposed to your normal boring chainsword

That scheme rules hard

 Las wrote:

White Scars. A mongol horseman is quite literally the antithesis of a Western European knight.

It's generally agreed that Space Marines are based on Western archetypes of medieval knights, elite heavily armed warriors who fight greatly outnumbered.

 Las wrote:

Also, the Roman army was about as far from medieval knights as you can get. Huge divisions of citizen soldiers culled from the reaches of an overarching imperial body is actually a lot closer to the more competent representations of the Imperial Guard than the Astartes.

...I didn't mention the Romans, no one did. But since you bought antiquity up, feudal knights had a lot more in common with ancient Hoplites than they did with the Romans. Ancient Greek hoplites were usually wealthy land-owning aristocrats who had the time and resources to train for war. Even the word "aristocrat" literally means "ruled by the best", which was in Greek times a title bestowed upon people who fought on the front line. This militarisation of the ruling elite transferred directly to post-Roman Europe and is the direct descendent of the fuedal system.

It's to this notion that Space Marines hark back to, men who are completely dedicated to the art of war and, like their Ancient Greek and Medieval European counterparts, capable of exacting a huge number of casualties for each one who falls.

Aztec warfare was bizarre and frankly, no one actually knows much about it. We know that the point of their battles was mostly to take prisoners - something that was fairly rare in Medieval Europe where the aim was usually political or territorial victory. If nothing else the Aztecs didn't have the resources or technology to concentrate killing power in as few men as possible. Ancient Greek armour and Medieval plate was hugely expensive for the time, but it paid off in battle - the Aztecs by contrast had leather and cloth armour, which while effective and fairly expensive, doesn't compare to metal armour seriously on either counts.

Finally, the Aztecs did not use "horde" tactics anymore than the Spanish did. Both societies utilized mass levies of commoners as rank and file soldiers. The Aztecs nobility made up the vast majority of the warrior castes mentioned in the OP. A simple Wikipediasearch reveals that

The commoners composed the bulk of the army, the lowest were porters (tlamemeh [t͡ɬaˈmemeʔ]) who carried weapons and supplies, next came the youths(identified by the top knot hairstyle they wore) of the telpochcalli led by their sergeants (the tēlpochyahqueh [teːɬpot͡ʃˈjaʔkeʔ] "youth leaders"). Next were the commoners yaoquizqueh. And finally there were commoners who had taken captives, the so-called tlamanih. [t͡ɬaˈmaniʔ] "captors".

Ranking above these came the nobles of the "warrior societies". These were ranked according to the number of captives they had taken in previous battles; the number of captives determined which of the different suits of honor (called tlahuiztli [t͡ɬaˈwist͡ɬi]) they were allowed to wear, and allowed them certain rights like being able to wear sandals, jewelry, alter their hairstyles, wear warpaint, carry flowers onto the battlefield, pierce, and tattoo themselves. These tlahuiztli became gradually more spectacular as the ranks progressed, allowing the most excellent warriors who had taken many captives to stand out on the battlefield. The higher ranked warriors were also called "Pipiltin".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_army

Please don't just copy and paste from wikipedia...regardless your quote simply reinforces my point. The Aztecs had a huge spread of warriors, European warfare by contrast was entirely about knights. Peasants appeared on the battlefield but, apart from archers, were pretty much pointless. Most sources didn't even number the non-knight contingents of medieval armies because it simply wasn't important. So while the lower echelons of medieval armies were irrelevent, the entire aztec military was socialised - clearly that contrasts directly with the organizational structure of the knight armies.

Also note that promotion to knighthood was more or less impossible - as with space marines, once you reached adulthood it was almost impossible to become a knight. Not only because you'd missed out on years of training already, but even a well-off commoner wouldn't be able to afford a horse, a suit of plate metal, chain mail, and a set of weapons. Hell it'd take his whole lifetime to pay for even 1% of that. By contrast, promotion to the higher ranks of the Aztec military was easy if you were skilled at taking captives.

DkLnBr wrote:

Small update as well, im adding in another warrior group to my army. The new group is the "Sun Warriors", the greatest warriors in the Chapter. But I cant decide if there should be 5 (relating to Aztec Mythology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_suns) or 13 of the greatest Marines in the chapter (relating to the 13 Heavens http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/ask-us/13-heavens-and-9-underworlds). But either way they will be the Chapter Master and Chief Librarian (Shaman), along with some of the captains. If I choose the 13 heavens then I can include all of the captains (plus another warrior, dont know who it would be), but the 5 sons is more directly related.

They'll be painted with yellow as the main colour rather than green or black.

What if the Sun Warriors (love the name and paint scheme by the way) were like the honor guard for the chapter master and keep it at 5? Don't know if the fluff's changed for the honor guard but it looks like they're portrayed as the best marines in the chapter. For the 13 heavens, you could maybe say the chapter has 13 companies in it with one company representing each heaven. Just an idea.

I like that paint job quite a bit. Red arms/hands for blood covered, black trim to represent obsidian weapons, and the yellow/gold for sun worship, which of course represents the Emperor in all his glory.

Alright! took a couple days, but I finally have some models assembled to show you all what they're going to look like (except tactical marines, they're going to be largely the same). The images could use some white balance correction, but you can see everything just fine so it doesnt matter too much.
Note: I'm going to use Lizardmen weapons to represent power swords (and power axes) rather than chainswords like people have suggested. The only reason is that I have a limited supply of Lizardmen gubbins and probably wouldn't have enough to go around if I replaced all the chainswords

Space Marine Commander:

Sanguinary Guard have so many bits I can use! Like the sun helmet here, just took off the blood drops on the forehead and we're good to go. Could even pass it off as an iron halo too! I might add more details to him still, like feathers and shrunken heads.

Jaguar Warrior Terminator:

I havent glued the helmet yet because I dont like how it looks. Instead of looking like a jaguar (or at the very least, a wolf) it looks like a rat. Like a Skaven Marine (hmm.... interesting)

Eagle Warrior Assault Marine:

I wonder how this would look with a Raven Guard paint job?

Helmeted Scouts:


I liked the look of Marine Scouts with helmets on, the ones I've seen are all awesome. Marine helmets dont work too well but Cadian and Elysian helmets are almost perfect for scouts. In case you're wondering, the heads are from the Baneblade commander

A second idea from SkavenLord, you're being really helpful! The "Sun Warriors" will be a 5 man Honour Guard squad, the smallest warrior group of the Chapter, but most elite. But I think that the Captains will be painted that scheme too, because I like it

Glad to help. Also, love the figs!
Can't wait to see what they look like painted.

Love the figures!

Cannot wait to see how they look painted.

Wonderful conversions there!

How about the Sun Warriors have 5 of the greatest dreadnoughts in the chapter as well as 13 of the greatest Marines/Terminators

 AntomanElven wrote:
How about the Sun Warriors have 5 of the greatest dreadnoughts in the chapter as well as 13 of the greatest Marines/Terminators

I second this idea, since Dreads kind of take an odd place in a chapters TO&E this would be a great spot to slot them in at

 Wardragoon wrote:

 AntomanElven wrote:
How about the Sun Warriors have 5 of the greatest dreadnoughts in the chapter as well as 13 of the greatest Marines/Terminators

I second this idea, since Dreads kind of take an odd place in a chapters TO&E this would be a great spot to slot them in at

I third the idea (is it possible to "third" an idea?). Aren't dreadnoughts supposed to be really old veterans that were only brought back to life because they were too good in battle to die?

Ok, updated fluff based on the your contributions.
The Shorn Ones have a bi-polar combat style. One battle will have them fight with a savage fury, tearing and shredding enemies with such ferocity that even their guardsmen allies feel fear. Chainswords and "Maquahuitl" weapons ripping at the enemy, spraying blood and viscera, while assault cannons mulch dozens at a time. Then the Next battle, seemingly decided at the whim of the Chaplain Temple Priests, will be fought with cool precision, their sword blows and guns shots being non-lethal, incapacitating blows. Their close combat weapons ham-stringing foes while snipers shoot shoulders and knees. Recently the Shorn Ones have been seen using modified grav weapons to immobilize enemies instead of crush them. These injured (but very much alive) enemies are then taken by the Chapter back to their Chapter Monastery to be sacrificed to the Great Sun Emperor. This practice is frustrating to other members of the imperium, as the Shorn Ones will go to great lengths to ensure that their targets survive, rather than simply killing them. However the Inquisition has used this expertise at times to capture and bring in a high value xenos or heretic target.

While the Shorn Ones still follow the imperial truth, they follow it slightly differently than the rest of the imperium. They worship the emperor as "The Great Sun" or sometimes "the Great Sun Emperor". Imperial scholours are unsure if this is a reference to his holy presence, or the light of the astronomicon, however they all agree that it originates from the previous beliefs of their planet's locals.

Finally there is the Shorn Ones' oath, which every Battle Brother is required to follow. This oath states simply that NO warrior may take a step back in battle, and that any who do will be killed by their own comrades. Marines that do will surrender themselves to the High Temple Priest (equivalent to a Interrogator Chaplain). The marine will be stripped of his armour and brought to the top of a temple pyramid. The High priest will begin the ritual by forgiving the act of cowardice in battle, then will recite scripture, bless the sacrifice, and then an apothecary will remove the gene seed from the still living marine, ending the ritual by removing the original heart.

Shorn Ones use a strange weapon called "Maquahuitl". These club like swords are lined with Bloodsidian (too cheesy of a name?) a remarkably sharp stone that is found on the Shorn Ones home planet. While seemingly crude, these weapons can cut through astartes power armour. This weapon has a similar function to power weapons, except with some differences. First, the weapon tears rather than cuts, so wounds caused by "Maquahuitl" are more serious than a standard power weapon (however skilled users can still cause shallow non-lethal strikes). Second, They also do not require a power source to function, so energy is instead spent elsewhere. The downside is that the bloodsidian stones do need to be replaced periodically as they dull and break after a while, so maintenance requirements of the "Maquahuitl" is higher than normal weapons.

Nice. I like the part about the Shorn Ones oath and the fact that forgiveness can only come from having their geneseed torn out.

Any ideas on notable characters like the chapter master?

Chapter Master could be a revered figure, perhaps dressed like a sun god or Quetzalcoatl (rainbow headdress)

He could also be on a 60mm base with a sacrificial altar and holding a greenstuffed heart.

You need a lot of gold and some rainbow colors for the long capes/gown to go over the terminator armour



Automatically Appended Next Post:

SkavenLord wrote:

 Wardragoon wrote:

 AntomanElven wrote:
How about the Sun Warriors have 5 of the greatest dreadnoughts in the chapter as well as 13 of the greatest Marines/Terminators

I second this idea, since Dreads kind of take an odd place in a chapters TO&E this would be a great spot to slot them in at

I third the idea (is it possible to "third" an idea?). Aren't dreadnoughts supposed to be really old veterans that were only brought back to life because they were too good in battle to die?

No they are not brought back to life, they are critically injured space marines who are too damaged to be repaired with robotics/ cyborg operations, so they are given the choice to either "get the emperor's blessing" (to die) or to become a Dreadnought.

This is usually done to the best fighters in a chapter as there is not many dreadnoughts to go around.

Venerable dreadnoughts are the oldest and wisest of dreadnoughts who are often hundreds or thousands of years old.

Dreadnoughts are kept in stasis, asleep in the fortress monastery until they are needed for battle again or for a ceremony (like what the templars do)

I stand corrected then. Thanks. Still, we can both agree that dreadnoughts are still very powerful space marines right?

SkavenLord wrote:
I stand corrected then. Thanks. Still, we can both agree that dreadnoughts are still very powerful space marines right?

Yeah they are typically the oldest and strongest space marines
Venerable dreadnoughts even more so.

They play by their own rules...
biggest mofo on the block
thick-ass armor thicker than yo momma's thighs
just check out dese guns son
assault big enough to heft yo own ride wit it
bling like whaaat
shout like a mother fether and nobody gonna tell you to stop
everybody listen to you cause you the wise old man
straight up gangbangin' all day erry day
when you ain't fightin' you get to sleep in like you ain't gotta care
can't feth no hoes but yo ass is dead anyway so who gives a feth
10/10 thug life

Not sure about the quality but Shapeways has a pretty cool Macuahuitl for 40K.

These might help if you're looking for Jaguar based shoulder pads.

http://www.shapeways.com/model/1342467/shoulder-pad-aztec-jaguar-bulk-set.html?li=search-results&materialId=61