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2013/10/18 19:54:40
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Does a riptide have to have a drone in order for a commander to join it? I'm pretty sure it doesn't need a drone but my friend keeps arguing with me about it. Here's the rule in question.... Pg. 39 of rulebook under Independent Characters "They cannot however, join vehicle squadrons (see page.77) or units that always consist of a single model (such as most vehicles an monstrous creatures)" I see this as meaning a unit that always consists of a single model and never has a chance of being two models ever, no matter the list or options in the codex cannot be joined, but a riptide that has the options to increase the unit size with drones and isn't always a single model list to list can be joined by a character. My friend's argument is that the rule is on a case to case basis, or list to list basis. If the riptide is a single model in a specific game it cannot be joined, but if it is a riptide and a drone in the next game, it can be joined. Whats the verdict here?
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 7000pts
 (In Progress)
"I don't need to hold a single objective to win any of the missions" -FlingitNow |
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2013/10/18 19:58:35
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Is the Riptide a unit that always consists of a single model? If so then an IC cannot join. If the unit can have more than one model (whether or not it does) then an IC can join.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2013/10/18 20:00:34
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
South Chicago burbs
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Crisis suits are also a unit of 1 model with the option of adding 2 more suits.
Does your friend also claim that commanders can't join a single crisis suit?
It's the same thing, and its covered in the rules. If the unit does not ALWAYS consist of a single model then they can be joined.
The riptide has the option to take drones meaning its not ALWAYS a unit consisting of a single model.
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2013/10/18 20:13:41
Subject: Re:Commander joining riptide....?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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thx for the comments and votes thus far
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/18 20:13:53
7000pts
(In Progress)
"I don't need to hold a single objective to win any of the missions" -FlingitNow |
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2013/10/18 20:14:48
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Sinewy Scourge
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I wanted to vote yes, but I clicked no lol 
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40K:
 5000+ points W/D/L: 10/0/6
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 1500+ points W/D/L: 16/1/4
Fantasy
4000+ points W/D/L: 1/1/2
 2500+ points W/D/L: 0/0/3
 Legends 2013 Doubles Tournament Champion |
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2013/10/18 20:20:37
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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The examples in the book lead people to missunderstand. MC's are usually unit which can only ever have 1 model, but there are a few where this is not true, as the riptide can have other models in the unit, it is not a unit which only ever consists of a single model. Other I know of is Carnifex (can have 3 in a unit).
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It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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2013/10/18 20:22:38
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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 Nem wrote:The examples in the book lead people to missunderstand. MC's are usually unit which can only ever have 1 model, but there are a few where this is not true, as the riptide can have other models in the unit, it is not a unit which only ever consists of a single model. Other I know of is Carnifex (can have 3 in a unit).
Canoptek Spyders.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2013/10/18 21:36:03
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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 Happyjew wrote: Nem wrote:The examples in the book lead people to missunderstand. MC's are usually unit which can only ever have 1 model, but there are a few where this is not true, as the riptide can have other models in the unit, it is not a unit which only ever consists of a single model. Other I know of is Carnifex (can have 3 in a unit).
Canoptek Spyders.
Hive Tyrant.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2013/10/18 21:40:27
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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 DeathReaper wrote: Happyjew wrote: Nem wrote:The examples in the book lead people to missunderstand. MC's are usually unit which can only ever have 1 model, but there are a few where this is not true, as the riptide can have other models in the unit, it is not a unit which only ever consists of a single model. Other I know of is Carnifex (can have 3 in a unit).
Canoptek Spyders.
Hive Tyrant.
Hive Tyrant is a unit that always consists of a single model.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2013/10/18 21:42:34
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Happyjew wrote: DeathReaper wrote: Happyjew wrote: Nem wrote:The examples in the book lead people to missunderstand. MC's are usually unit which can only ever have 1 model, but there are a few where this is not true, as the riptide can have other models in the unit, it is not a unit which only ever consists of a single model. Other I know of is Carnifex (can have 3 in a unit).
Canoptek Spyders.
Hive Tyrant.
Hive Tyrant is a unit that always consists of a single model.
It can be with one or more hive guard, so it is not always in a unit that consists of a single model.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2013/10/18 21:45:22
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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The unit "Hive Tyrant" is a unit that always consists of a single model. It can join a unit of Tyrant Guard in which case it is part of the unit "Tyrant Guard Brood".
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2013/10/18 21:59:55
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Happyjew wrote:The unit "Hive Tyrant" is a unit that always consists of a single model. It can join a unit of Tyrant Guard in which case it is part of the unit "Tyrant Guard Brood".
As above - he joins exactly like an IC, meaning he must be a normal member of "the unit" - the unit being the Tyrant Guard
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2013/10/18 22:04:13
Subject: Re:Commander joining riptide....?
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest
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Oh, blast. Discount one of the "no" votes - I MEANT to put yes.
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 "Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch |
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2013/10/18 22:12:23
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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Tell your friend to stop being a wimp and just play it that way.Riptides dont always consist of one model therefore letting ICs join him.
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nWo blackshirts GT Team Member
http://inthenameofsangunius.blogspot.com/?m=1 |
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2013/10/18 23:22:58
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Happyjew wrote:The unit "Hive Tyrant" is a unit that always consists of a single model. It can join a unit of Tyrant Guard in which case it is part of the unit "Tyrant Guard Brood".
Which reallt doies not matter as the HT is never solo and can have other members in the unit.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2013/10/18 23:27:37
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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The rule is that ICs cannot join units that always consist of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC can never join the (unit) Hive Tyrant. Besides the only reason an IC can join another IC is because the rules for IC specifically allow it, otherwise (except for Iyanden Spiritseer) IC's would never be able to join another IC as they are units that always consist of a single model.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2013/10/18 23:43:20
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Happyjew wrote:The rule is that ICs cannot join units that always consist of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC can never join the (unit) Hive Tyrant. Besides the only reason an IC can join another IC is because the rules for IC specifically allow it, otherwise (except for Iyanden Spiritseer) IC's would never be able to join another IC as they are units that always consist of a single model.
No, the Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, unless the Tyrant guard are somehow the same model as the Hive Tyrant itself, which of course is silly.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2013/10/18 23:47:34
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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DeathReaper wrote: Happyjew wrote:The rule is that ICs cannot join units that always consist of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC can never join the (unit) Hive Tyrant. Besides the only reason an IC can join another IC is because the rules for IC specifically allow it, otherwise (except for Iyanden Spiritseer) IC's would never be able to join another IC as they are units that always consist of a single model.
No, the Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, unless the Tyrant guard are somehow the same model as the Hive Tyrant itself, which of course is silly.
The Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard, not the other way around.
If Tyrant Guard were purchased like Drones or Wolves, then yes an IC would be able to join a Hive Tyrant.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2013/10/19 00:13:36
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Happyjew wrote: DeathReaper wrote: Happyjew wrote:The rule is that ICs cannot join units that always consist of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC can never join the (unit) Hive Tyrant. Besides the only reason an IC can join another IC is because the rules for IC specifically allow it, otherwise (except for Iyanden Spiritseer) IC's would never be able to join another IC as they are units that always consist of a single model.
No, the Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, unless the Tyrant guard are somehow the same model as the Hive Tyrant itself, which of course is silly.
The Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard, not the other way around.
Which does not matter as the HT and Guard are never a single model unit.
Therefore IC's can join them.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2013/10/19 00:18:06
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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How is the the unit "Hive Tyrant" not a unit that always consists of a single model?
There is no option to add more models to the unit, and there is no permission to join the unit as Hive Tyrants lack the IC special rule.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2013/10/19 00:22:57
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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This logic is backwards.
The Tyrant guard and Hive Tyrant are seperate units. The Tyrant joining the guard is optional.
The Hive tyrant unit is always a single model, when it joins the guard, it becomes a member of the Guard unit.
It's like saying an IC can join an avatar, because once joined it isn't a single model, therefore it is never a single model.
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2013/10/19 00:26:36
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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 grendel083 wrote:This logic is backwards.
The Tyrant guard and Hive Tyrant are seperate units.[sic]
Untill the HT joins the Guard, then the HT does not consist of a single model so IC may join a HT.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2013/10/19 00:29:15
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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DeathReaper wrote: grendel083 wrote:This logic is backwards.
The Tyrant guard and Hive Tyrant are seperate units.[sic]
Untill the HT joins the Guard, then the HT does not consist of a single model so IC may join a HT.
Wait what? How does the the Hive Tyrant unit not consist of a single model before it joins the Tyrant Guard (at which point it is part of the Tyrant Guard unit, not the Hive Tyrant unit)?
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2013/10/19 01:52:21
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Sneaky Lictor
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I'm Confused by DRs stance as well, but let me take a shot at maybe what he's getting at....if not continue on.
Another IC could join the Tyrant guard, as they are not single models, then the Hive Tyrant joins as it is given special permision to join that one unit "like" and IC.
I think it might be getting mixed up, in that a different IC CAN join the Tyrant Guard with the Tyrant attached to it.
But if he's saying that an IC can join just the tyrant, then I disagree.
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2013/10/19 02:08:27
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Strangely Beautiful Daemonette of Slaanesh
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There was a previous thread about adding Chronus as an upgrade to a tank. I don't know what the rule is regarding vehicle squadrons right now (whether it has a minimum of 1 vehicle- I don't have my BRB on me currently). If it's changed, does that mean an IG tank is able to have an IC join it? Don't know how that would play out. But I'm guessing the vehicle squadron unit count didn't change from 5th to 6th...
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"Oh hello there Eldar and fellow brethren Space Marines, take a seat and let me play you the music of my people"- Band Slaanesh, the Rock and Roll of 40k
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2013/10/19 02:14:07
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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 chillis wrote:There was a previous thread about adding Chronus as an upgrade to a tank. I don't know what the rule is regarding vehicle squadrons right now (whether it has a minimum of 1 vehicle- I don't have my BRB on me currently). If it's changed, does that mean an IG tank is able to have an IC join it? Don't know how that would play out. But I'm guessing the vehicle squadron unit count didn't change from 5th to 6th...
ICs specifically cannot join vehicles; having more than 1 model possible in the vehicle unit is irrelevant.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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2013/10/19 03:30:15
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Strangely Beautiful Daemonette of Slaanesh
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 Kommissar Kel wrote: chillis wrote:There was a previous thread about adding Chronus as an upgrade to a tank. I don't know what the rule is regarding vehicle squadrons right now (whether it has a minimum of 1 vehicle- I don't have my BRB on me currently). If it's changed, does that mean an IG tank is able to have an IC join it? Don't know how that would play out. But I'm guessing the vehicle squadron unit count didn't change from 5th to 6th...
ICs specifically cannot join vehicles; having more than 1 model possible in the vehicle unit is irrelevant.
Not to be TFG but what page is this on? Automatically Appended Next Post: - btw this was just something I was thinking about when reading the chronus thread, I do not play IG and only play chaos. This is just simple inquiry
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/19 03:34:09
"Oh hello there Eldar and fellow brethren Space Marines, take a seat and let me play you the music of my people"- Band Slaanesh, the Rock and Roll of 40k
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2013/10/19 03:46:02
Subject: Re:Commander joining riptide....?
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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I'd just like to point out that it is possible to have an IC joined to a lone Hive Tyrant, granted it does require you to join both to a Tyrant Guard brood and have all the Tyrant Guard die, but it is possible.
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 Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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2013/10/19 04:29:34
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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chillis wrote: Kommissar Kel wrote: chillis wrote:There was a previous thread about adding Chronus as an upgrade to a tank. I don't know what the rule is regarding vehicle squadrons right now (whether it has a minimum of 1 vehicle- I don't have my BRB on me currently). If it's changed, does that mean an IG tank is able to have an IC join it? Don't know how that would play out. But I'm guessing the vehicle squadron unit count didn't change from 5th to 6th...
ICs specifically cannot join vehicles; having more than 1 model possible in the vehicle unit is irrelevant.
Not to be TFG but what page is this on?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
- btw this was just something I was thinking about when reading the chronus thread, I do not play IG and only play chaos. This is just simple inquiry
not tfg at all, you had a legitamate request for rule citation on my refutal of your claim.
B? RB page 39, second sentence under independant character: "They[ ICs] cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons(see page 77) or units that always consist of a single model(such as most vehicles and monstrous creatures)."
now mind you the monstrous creatures in the above quote is still being referred to under that "Most" before vehicles, and the vehicles that do not fall under the example of always single model are the specifically disallowed squadrons.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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2013/10/19 04:33:19
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Strangely Beautiful Daemonette of Slaanesh
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I thought that for it to be a squadron that it had to include multiple vehicles not models? RAI I don't believe that IC's should be allowed but RAW is giving me a head ache
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess this is kind of relevant to the riptide deal too... except my RAI for that is that riptide's are able to be joined by IC
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/19 04:35:11
"Oh hello there Eldar and fellow brethren Space Marines, take a seat and let me play you the music of my people"- Band Slaanesh, the Rock and Roll of 40k
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