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I was going to say, I don't think Celestine adds anything to that unit?

Her best uses would be to turn a high damage, but somewhat squishy unit into something that can make it to its target. Her S5 AP3 attacks don't really add much to a proper death star.

Mavnas wrote:
I was going to say, I don't think Celestine adds anything to that unit?

Her best uses would be to turn a high damage, but somewhat squishy unit into something that can make it to its target. Her S5 AP3 attacks don't really add much to a proper death star.

Like an Inquisitorial Henchman unit of DCAs and Crusaders with Priests?

Kind of... though I think it helps if that unit has AP2 and moves fast. (though, I guess priests could have AP2).

Actually, now that I think back on it, I seem to remember that DCAs and Mace-wielding priests got pretty broken once you had all the hymns going.

Is there any easy way to add an IC with Tank Hunter? (I just realized if you could give Celestine that, she could take out a knight in about 2 rounds of combat), otherwise my command squad + celestine squad would have to avoid the knight and hope melta guns can be brought to bear upon it.

So is there ever a reason to run and SoB CAD again? Unless you wanted a 100% sisters army taking the Castellan with Coteaz is better in pretty much every way, even if hatred is wasted on SoB

ERJAK wrote:
So is there ever a reason to run and SoB CAD again? Unless you wanted a 100% sisters army taking the Castellan with Coteaz is better in pretty much every way, even if hatred is wasted on SoB

Depends on how you want to run it. I actually don't know that there is much advantage for Castellans in sub 1850. At higher points levels, it's great, but shifts the tax to Coteaz and more troops. I'll let you know after I run some more lists together.

Pure sisters? Probably better to take Castellans. Sisters mixed with other factions (IG, straight SM)? Maybe Castellans. Sisters mixed with SW, etc? Probably not castellans.

 pretre wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
So is there ever a reason to run and SoB CAD again? Unless you wanted a 100% sisters army taking the Castellan with Coteaz is better in pretty much every way, even if hatred is wasted on SoB

Depends on how you want to run it. I actually don't know that there is much advantage for Castellans in sub 1850. At higher points levels, it's great, but shifts the tax to Coteaz and more troops. I'll let you know after I run some more lists together.

Pure sisters? Probably better to take Castellans. Sisters mixed with other factions (IG, straight SM)? Maybe Castellans. Sisters mixed with SW, etc? Probably not castellans.

You can't do pure anything in castellans but if you wanted to run the best list you can while spending the smallest amount of points possible on non-sisters models the Castellans regen+Coteaz's obsec is hard to beat at 100pts. on out of faction models. You can even toss in a Culexus if you wanted.

 pretre wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Dark Angels
Interrogator Chaplain on a bike wt Mace of Redemption, auspex
Ravenwing Command Squad with Apothecary, Ravenwing Banner

Supported by a Dark Shroud

2+ rerollable Jink save going in. Plasma talons on the Ravenwing Command Squad for hella shooting. RWCS all have Rending attacks - good against infantry and vehicles both. Apothecary for FNP. Ravenwing Banner gives an auto-pass on Hit & Run. Ravenwing grenade launcher firing stasis grenades debuffs the unit you're about to charge. Charging from within the Dark Shroud's Stealth bubble denies Overwatch. Interrogator Chaplain has a statline like a SM Captain minus 1 WS, plus the usual Chaplain buff in the first round of combat. Mace of Redemption is S+3 AP3, AP1 vs Chaos Marines, goes at initiative.

Wrong thread? Or are you suggesting a unit for Celestine?

It's actually quite squishy in any sort of dedicated close combat, or anything that can ignore cover. Having Celestine and TWC can make it into a real deathstar.

ERJAK wrote:
You can't do pure anything in castellans but if you wanted to run the best list you can while spending the smallest amount of points possible on non-sisters models the Castellans regen+Coteaz's obsec is hard to beat at 100pts. on out of faction models. You can even toss in a Culexus if you wanted.

Sure you can. Canoness x2, 4 BSS squads. That's pure.

 pretre wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
You can't do pure anything in castellans but if you wanted to run the best list you can while spending the smallest amount of points possible on non-sisters models the Castellans regen+Coteaz's obsec is hard to beat at 100pts. on out of faction models. You can even toss in a Culexus if you wanted.

Sure you can. Canoness x2, 4 BSS squads. That's pure.

Castellan requires 2 factions as part of the detachment rules.
'

What are the chances of sisters getting their own codex now? They are still teasing plastic sisters this year, yeah? I do notice that a lot of the rules point to Imperial Agents "or" Sisters of Battle codex. However, this could just be GW safing themselves for a future (many years from now) pure sisters codex release. However, it does feel like they are hinting a proper codex could be on the way this year.

I really want a proper codex with proper formations (with some cool bonuses) and maybe some new units/weapons (I was going to say retributors with Grav, but that might not be very lore friendly). =/

Edit: I just want a good reason (other than coolness and lore) to run retributors and celestians. Also I want to run my new canoness, but I have a hard time fitting her in now that Celestine has new rules. Putting the repressor in the core rules would be cool too.

 Acidian wrote:
What are the chances of sisters getting their own codex now? They are still teasing plastic sisters this year, yeah? I do notice that a lot of the rules point to Imperial Agents "or" Sisters of Battle codex. However, this could just be GW safing themselves for a future (many years from now) pure sisters codex release. However, it does feel like they are hinting a proper codex could be on the way this year.

I really want a proper codex with proper formations (with some cool bonuses) and maybe some new units/weapons (I was going to say retributors with Grav, but that might not be very lore friendly). =/

I'm guessing pretty good. Sisters feature heavily in Fall of Cadia and the new detachments make using them easy for beginners to plug in to existing armies.

As for pure sisters armies, CAD is still best. I think the best mixed lists though will use the castellan detachment since you can easily grab units that cover a pure sisters armies weaknesses with no additional tax.

My new core is: Coteaz; 4x 5 scouts with combi-grav, storm with melta; 3x 5 dominions, 4 melta, condemnor boltgun, repressor; Libby, level 2, hunters eye; 3 grav cents, omniscope; FA drop pod; wyvern; wyvern. Comes in neatly at 1655.

ERJAK wrote:

 pretre wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
You can't do pure anything in castellans but if you wanted to run the best list you can while spending the smallest amount of points possible on non-sisters models the Castellans regen+Coteaz's obsec is hard to beat at 100pts. on out of faction models. You can even toss in a Culexus if you wanted.

Sure you can. Canoness x2, 4 BSS squads. That's pure.

Castellan requires 2 factions as part of the detachment rules.
'

Doh! Yes, it does.

 Acidian wrote:
What are the chances of sisters getting their own codex now? They are still teasing plastic sisters this year, yeah? I do notice that a lot of the rules point to Imperial Agents "or" Sisters of Battle codex. However, this could just be GW safing themselves for a future (many years from now) pure sisters codex release. However, it does feel like they are hinting a proper codex could be on the way this year.

I really want a proper codex with proper formations (with some cool bonuses) and maybe some new units/weapons (I was going to say retributors with Grav, but that might not be very lore friendly). =/

Chances of Sisters getting a codex before 8th edition (whenever that is)? Slim to none. Then again, I'd say the same for any faction right now. The only codices that have come out in the last year have been for 'new' factions. GW just isn't doing codices for 40k right now. Sisters have a serviceable codex and Imperial Agents doesn't change that. Add in Fall of Cadia, and we get a few buffs. GW has shown that they aren't above modding books through FAQ's or including formations etc. Blood Angels Scouts, Dreadnoughts of all types and the work the Traitor Legions has done are examples of this. So... I don't see them giving us a new codex... maybe a few more detachments as the Gathering Storm continues.
Would it be hard to do a plastic sisters release? No... basically, it would be like the Grey Knights... 1 5 person box would cover all of our troop, elite, and heavy support options. Add another box for seraphim. Similar plastic boxes to flesh out the Inquisition... that would be great. I've lost any hope that that will happen soon, however. I think that Verdian and Celestine are the best we are going to get for a while.
Castellans is going to be our version of the composite detachment... a double CAD. CAD's work so well for Imperial Forces anyway, it makes a certain amount of sense.

I think the only super pressing change they need is to give celestinee AoF, with that and castellan I think you could see MSU sob doing well in the middle of the pack. Oh and the feth-yo-deepstrike relic. 350 points locked in though...

ERJAK wrote:
So is there ever a reason to run and SoB CAD again? Unless you wanted a 100% sisters army taking the Castellan with Coteaz is better in pretty much every way, even if hatred is wasted on SoB

The CAD:

-Allows you to run fewer troops (let's say you ally in SW or DA or something else not in the Castellans that cost a lot and you don't want to run 4 BSS)
-Has a fortification slot,
-Some various forge world options (like the knight with the hellstorm flamer)

Mavnas wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
So is there ever a reason to run and SoB CAD again? Unless you wanted a 100% sisters army taking the Castellan with Coteaz is better in pretty much every way, even if hatred is wasted on SoB

The CAD:

-Allows you to run fewer troops (let's say you ally in SW or DA or something else not in the Castellans that cost a lot and you don't want to run 4 BSS)
-Has a fortification slot,
-Some various forge world options (like the knight with the hellstorm flamer)

point 2 and 3: fair enough, point 1: Almost every SoB list is double CAD or other allies anyway.

it's really just a question of what allies you want.

None, pure mono sisters, double cad.

Vanilla Marines, Guard or Inq, Castellans.

Anything else, single/double cad/castellans and allies.

I think castellans does open up an interesting option if you want to play at being witch hunters.

PanzerLeader wrote:
My new core is: Coteaz; 4x 5 scouts with combi-grav, storm with melta; 3x 5 dominions, 4 melta, condemnor boltgun, repressor; Libby, level 2, hunters eye; 3 grav cents, omniscope; FA drop pod; wyvern; wyvern. Comes in neatly at 1655.

In this list, what is the primary faction with the most points? That's only ~500 of SoB.

 deviantduck wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
My new core is: Coteaz; 4x 5 scouts with combi-grav, storm with melta; 3x 5 dominions, 4 melta, condemnor boltgun, repressor; Libby, level 2, hunters eye; 3 grav cents, omniscope; FA drop pod; wyvern; wyvern. Comes in neatly at 1655.

In this list, what is the primary faction with the most points? That's only ~500 of SoB.

I have about 570 in Sisters right now. Thinking of adding in Celestine for the last 200. To make it a primary Sisters list, I'd swap two of the scout squads for BSS rhino squads.

So, playing with 'Pure' Lists:

Castellans -
Celestine - 200
Coteaz from C:IA- 100
Xenos form C:I with Psycho, Liber and 3 Servos - 64
4 Ministorum Priests from C:AS with Litanies, 2 Power Mauls and Font of Fury - 155
5 BSS with Melta/HF in Rhino - 120
5 BSS with Melta/HF in Rhino - 120
5 BSS with Melta/HF in Rhino - 120
20 BSS with Flamer/HF - 155
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Rep - 180
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Rep - 180
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Rep - 180
5 Rets with 4 HF in Repressor - 175
1849

Inqs, Celestine and 3 Priests go in Blob. Blob scouts up to hold middle ground and generally makes a nuisance of itself.

Font priest goes with Rets for Easy Bake. Not terribly good, but at least it is obsec and has a good scouting presence on turn one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd like to fit Uriah in for the 5++, but I guess I'll have to do without.

Pretre,
I'm leaning in a similar direction, but I don't have Repressors for the Dominions squads or heavy flamers for the BSS or Retributors.
A blob with hit and run? Fun.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Pretre,
I'm leaning in a similar direction, but I don't have Repressors for the Dominions squads or heavy flamers for the BSS or Retributors.
A blob with hit and run? Fun.

Yeah, I ran it in 6th and it was fun. Uriah makes them all 5++ which is helpful, but tanking with Celestine should be okay.

The idea is that you just tie up units in hand to hand with rerollable 3+/6++, Psycho and then hit and run out to do it again. People can avoid you pretty easy, but the 20+ models take up a huge footprint of the middle of the board.

You can convert repressors pretty easy, if you are game for that. I have some examples if you need them. As for HF, you could easily swap the BSS HF to Meltas or Flamers. The Retributors could be replaced by an exo, but I was looking for more obsec.

For you, you could do:
Castellans -
Celestine - 200
Coteaz from C:IA- 100
Uriah - 100
Xenos form C:I with Psycho, Liber and 3 Servos - 64
3 Ministorum Priests from C:AS with Litanies, 2 Power Mauls - 120
5 BSS with Melta/Fl in Rhino - 115
5 BSS with Melta/Fl in Rhino - 115
5 BSS with Melta/Fl in Rhino - 115
20 BSS with Flamerx2 - 290
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 160
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 160
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 160
Exorcist - 125
1839

Any thought on the Condemnor Boltguns? Are they worth including in the list anywhere? Maybe on Superiors? Maybe as an Elite Command Squad?
The other thing, since we have a lot in the Fast Attack and Heavy Support (particularly if you use a lot of ObSec Retributors) then it is easy to lose a lot of bonus points on The Scouring and Big Guns missions. Is this something that worries you?
I do like the idea of an Ageis Defense Line and a squad of Heavy Bolter Retirbutors with Coteaz. Any thoughts on including something like that? I don't think that Heavy Flamers would do the same job.

Castellans doesn't have a fort slot. And no, I'm not terribly worried about Big Guns/Scouring any more than I am normal KP missions. They are our cross to bear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an aside, I'm working on a 1500 point lists for an event in March. No Battle Brothers, all factions are AoC at best.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Any thought on the Condemnor Boltguns? Are they worth including in the list anywhere? Maybe on Superiors? Maybe as an Elite Command Squad?

The command squad in psyker-assassination mode is a nice option. But I'm still debating whether it is really worth it or not.

I tried a basic 5-celestian command squad all with condemnor in a rhino/immo/repressor (depending on points) quite a few time. It is not too expensive, specially now that you don't even need to pay the canoness tax for it. If you have a high value single psyker to kill, it is super good. One time I got first turn, my opponent had a nurgle DP in cover so he was confident, transport move, squad disembark, shoot 5 condemnors, the DP died right away. Boom 300-ish points dead just like that. It's usually less impactful, but you can get that solo librarian in a gravdev squad or something. However, you could also miss a few shots and not kill your target: you only hit on 3+ and there is only a 66% chance of guaranteed wound on the perils table. The real downside is that when you have no psyker to kill, that squad is useless. Not obsec, no firepower, no staying power, nothing...

So recently I tried a bigger command squad: 7-8 condemnor and 2 meltas. The good news is, if you ever cross a screamstar or librarius conclave, they will be very afraid... that squad can easily snipe a couple 2W psykers whatever unit they are in, or kill a big nasty psyker right away. The bad news is that the point cost is hefty: ~250pts dpending on your options/number of celestians. If there is no psyker on the wrong side of the board, at least you have a couple meltas and maybe *maybe* the handful of S5 shots from the condemnors might be of some use (but honestly don't count on it). The unit can hold a position better too, just by having more bodies.
But really here the downside is points.

Now the condemnor is nice and all, but it is not grav-good.
Against a psychic-heavy deathstar you basically need the first turn (yeah no kidding) and to be in range. Because if they cast invisibility, you're screwed: hitting on 6s with one-use weapons is not fun. If they have endurance running, then your squad will be half as effective since you can FNP the wounds from perils.
Big psykers are usually Nids/Demon FMC. Same as with invisibility, hitting on 6s is the issue here. You might get lucky and have a skyfire nexus mysterious objective on the table, or you better pray you have the first turn. And with the various new chaos books, flying circuses are back and they're angry. BTW, Magnus is immune to perils so sadly, it is not our answer to him.
If you're facing Corsairs most of their special perils table doesnt bother them at all.

In the end you need to face psykers, and have favorable conditions. When it's the case and you get that round of shooting, then sure that squad is worth every penny because you'll get that kill. It will remove some psychic support, or that crucial power your opponent needs. If the psyker's a warlord, boom one extra point. If you have the good maelstroms, boom easy point (in ITC context it makes the triple kill a lot easier, which is huge).
It's a either a very rewarding squad, or an overexpensive one.

Right now I still want to play it, and I still feel there is a reason to play it, but I have hard time finding the points and often end up frustrated with it.

You can't take 'a bigger command squad'. It doesn't have the option to add additional models.

 pretre wrote:
You can't take 'a bigger command squad'. It doesn't have the option to add additional models.

Woops... Should have checked that. Ok then at least it solves the temptation to go big. Hopefully I only used it during play-tests, not in actual events.

I have not yet tried to put a condemnor on every superior. It might be worth it to dilute the threat everywhere, but I'm not convinced. It feels more like an occasional-pot-shot-from-the-rhino-hatch approach.

I was thinking about 3 Condemnors, Dialogus (Laud Hailer and Book) and Hospitaller in a Rhino.

Use them to give Celestine FNP for turn 1 and then hop in and ride around providing buffs, maybe taking a pot shot at a psyker.

I like the command squad for witch hunting. I have had best results with four condemnors, a chirurgeon, and the hq priest.

Question about the new Celestine. Her and the twins can join a unit. Do they still have to remain in coherency between the three of them while also maintaing coherency with the joined unit?

Currently I am planning on running C:AS with C:IA for games where the new Celestine is kind of too much along with six Doms in Repressors. Otherwise attach an Ordo Hereticus Inq to your Castellan and wreck face.

Sucks that she doesn't have AoF, strange that she gets along with non SoB but has a grudge against the pretty girl Seraphim.....

Does the Dialogus laud-hailer works when embarked ?