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I am quite scared - does this mean that Sisters of Battle are............good in this edition

 Mr Morden wrote:
I am quite scared - does this mean that Sisters of Battle are............good in this edition

Maybe, maybe not.

Everyone else's infantry is getting cheaper across the board too.

It's a mixed bag.

Repentia get to get in melee out of a transport, but their eviscerators got nerfed to hell-- as in, they're nerfed to the point that even basic MEQ now gets an armor save against them.

Celestians get higher melee to-hit again, but they're still kinda stuck in "elite limbo" where they're supposedly elite but they have nothing really to show for it; their main buff was the Bodyguards rule, which is okay, but Sisters only really have one HQ worth protecting iwth an additional squad of kinda expensive for what they otherwise do elites-- and Celestine doesn't NEED said protection.

Seraphim are still good, might get better cause of the change to twin-linked.

Battle Sisters are cheap, but to most people they'll still remain little more than vectors used to cart around meltas and flamers. Might be worth taking larger squads for bolter spam at least, with the change to how damage to vehicles and such works.

Dominions are still good, especially with immolators being better.

Retributors are... well, they're still Retributors. I guess you can give them an additional phase of shooting if you want to spend your acts of faith on them, might make something of themselves.

Canonesses got a definite buff with their leadership aura. It's not super-strong but it's still quite notable, and their statline is good for being a human character.

Celestine is still Celestine.

Acts of Faith scale poorly; unless you bring Celestine, you stand an uncomfortably high chance of not getting any off at all far too often to be comfortable even if you bring imagifiers, which are basically a point tax you have to pay if you want acts of faith to scale with the army. Rhinos are too expensive, immolators are nice, exorcists are a bit more survivable and such.

Rest are ecclesiarchy crap that Idon't care much about, but it got buffed at least so there's that. Surprised that Crusaders get acts of faith, but unless you're using a pure ecclesiarchy army or allying an ecclesiarchy detachment in to a guard army, I don't see that ever getting used.

No new units, though, and no new miniatures. So Still using 1997's leftovers.

ERJAK wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
If those are all accurate, i'm terribly bummed. Sisters received the most linear set of rules from 7th - 8th yet, and in doing so, nothing was done to really help them.

Armies like Tyranids and others already have demonstratable ways to Turn 1 assault from across a table, and meanwhile, GW seems afraid to let Acts of Faith even reach "ok" status?

Considering how delicate a pure Sister's army would be, I feel like there would be no harm in going Ynnari-lite with them. Let them get their double-shooting phase at decent odds, considering their special weapons tend to be shorter range anyway. Especially as they're doing so by placing themselves at serious risk of being assaulted to death the next turn.

Oh and Penitent Engines are still mathematically terrible, and unlikely to ever reach the combat where they would presumably do well.

You're just straight up wrong. The new AoFs are insane, especially with how ridiculously brutal penitent engines are.

Firstly, celestine is guaranteed a first turn charge every game (from space marine leaks jumppacks give the standard 9"deepstrike and she can AoF herself into auto succeed range.) Use one on penitent enines and they can move an average of 20" per turn and still shoot their heavy flamers, or move 14" and charge. You can also use them to get around the 'disembark before you move' thing AND still get double shooting for the unit that pops out. Penitent engines can get 4 rounds of attacks per turn with their special ability(as I read it) WITH NO CHANCE AT BEING COUNTER ATTACKED THAT TURN.

Yeah, celestine at least 2 imagifiers are pretty much mandatory but holy gak is there so much cool stuff we can do with even just 2-3 per turn.

Penitent Engines don't have Acts of Faith, so no... you won't be giving them one.

Still an unconfirmed rumor to me. A lot of incinsistancies, I will wait to see what actually comes out.

Does it specifically call out Imagifers as a new priest type HQ or is it alluding to the Sororitas carrying a Simulacrum in a squad? If its the former, what role does the Simulacra now play (other than becoming an Imagifer)? If its the latter, well, we are going to have some fun.

They are already doing better than my Bretonnians (who do quite well in AoS actually). So there is plenty to be happy about.

And thank the Emperor, no plastic!

That we still have no new miniatures, no new units, no new things to add to the faction and just reworked old things is not a thing to be thankful for. It's been 20 years. You have had plenty of time to get all the metal battle sisters you could ever want, and they'd still be usable after plastics got released-- you wouldn't be being forced to get the plastics and dump your metals.

 dracpanzer wrote:
Still an unconfirmed rumor to me. A lot of incinsistancies, I will wait to see what actually comes out.

Does it specifically call out Imagifers as a new priest type HQ or is it alluding to the Sororitas carrying a Simulacrum in a squad? If its the former, what role does the Simulacra now play (other than becoming an Imagifer)? If its the latter, well, we are going to have some fun.

They are already doing better than my Bretonnians (who do quite well in AoS actually). So there is plenty to be happy about.

And thank the Emperor, no plastic!

Not sure what you mean by unconfirmed. All of the datasheets have been leaked on natfka and I have read them in the actual book. It's all legit. Point costs can also be found a few posts above.

Imagifier is an Elite choice. They are a single model unit and are classified characters. As such they cannot be picked off unless they are the closest unit or the enemy as a rule allowing them (like sniper rifles).

The only sister HQs we have are Celestine and the Canoness. If you go one llevel of keyword above, then Jacobus is an HQ as well where as the Priest is not, he's also an elite.


As such, our go to detachment is likely to be at least a Battalion for the 6 elite slots and 3 command points.



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 Melissia wrote:
That we still have no new miniatures, no new units, no new things to add to the faction and just reworked old things is not a thing to be thankful for. It's been 20 years. You have had plenty of time to get all the metal battle sisters you could ever want, and they'd still be usable after plastics got released-- you wouldn't be being forced to get the plastics and dump your metals.

The fact that you have to pay for the Penitent Engine's weapons is a good sign that we have a new model coming that will have different weapon options to chose from. The same is likely true of the Mistress.

Let's not forget that those books are only temporary to get everyone started with 8th edition. Codexes should be following soon for every army. I expect these to be more fleshed out.

I don't.

I'm working up a 1500 list for a 3 rd tournament in July.
Basic idea so far (pending more info, of course) is a lot like my previous lists.
Celestine and Gems - 250
Canoness - 45

Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
Dialogous - 15

5 BSS with M/HW in Immo - 147
20 BSS with Flamer x2 and Immo - 266

Exo - 160
Exo - 160

5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 186
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 186




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Hmm. I'm wondering if Rets will be better than exos.
Exos are good and tough, but can't get faith'd for double shot.
Both can get reroll 1's with Canoness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh shoot, I screwed up points. You still pay for the gun even if it comes with it.


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I guess I could do

Battallion Det (+3 Command)
Celestine and Gem - 250
Canoness - 45
5 BSS with M/F in Rhino - 144
5 BSS with M/F in Rhino - 144
5 BSS with M/F in Rhino - 144
Exo - 160
10 Rets with 4 HB - 130
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
1499

Sit the Can and Imagifer with Rets and Exo.

So despite the steep points increase for transports, you're still going with Mech MSU... is that a tactical preference, or do you see that still being the favorable build in 8th?

20 BSS with Flamer x2 and Immo - 266

Am I missing something, or are BSS squads capped at 15? It gives the option to take an additional 5 (total of 10, or an additional 10 (total of 15). Do we have some reason to think that we can do both of those, for a total of 20?

Oh yeah, it does look like it caps at 15. My bad.

Re: MSU, just playing with numbers.

After to talking to people, there is no reason to take troops if you don't want command points.

Outrider Detachment:
Celestine and Gem - 250
Canoness -45
Exorcist 160
9 Rets with 4 HB - 130
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
1500


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 MacPhail wrote:
So despite the steep points increase for transports, you're still going with Mech MSU... is that a tactical preference, or do you see that still being the favorable build in 8th?

Also, vehicles are a lot better. We don't have to worry about getting stunned, etc. Just MW when it blows up.


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Okay, so silly ideas:

Spearhead
Canoness - 45
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
380

Just a silly little plug and play detachment.


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Spearhead 1
Celestine and Gem - 250
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with 3 Melta/1Flamer in Rhino - 183

Spearhead 2
Canoness - 45
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with 2 Melta/2 Flamer in Rhino - 175
5 Doms with 2 Melta/2 Flamer in Rhino - 175
1498

 pretre wrote:
Oh yeah, it does look like it caps at 15. My bad.

Re: MSU, just playing with numbers.

After to talking to people, there is no reason to take troops if you don't want command points.

Outrider Detachment:
Celestine and Gem - 250
Canoness -45
Exorcist 160
9 Rets with 4 HB - 130
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
1500


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 MacPhail wrote:
So despite the steep points increase for transports, you're still going with Mech MSU... is that a tactical preference, or do you see that still being the favorable build in 8th?

Also, vehicles are a lot better. We don't have to worry about getting stunned, etc. Just MW when it blows up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, so silly ideas:

Spearhead
Canoness - 45
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
380

Just a silly little plug and play detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spearhead 1
Celestine and Gem - 250
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with 3 Melta/1Flamer in Rhino - 183

Spearhead 2
Canoness - 45
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with 2 Melta/2 Flamer in Rhino - 175
5 Doms with 2 Melta/2 Flamer in Rhino - 175
1498

Wow, you're fast.

How about this for 2000:
Battalion
250-Celestine, 2x Geminae
45-Canoness
40-Imagifier
40-Imagifier
40-Imagifier
185-Battle Sisters, 2x Flamers, Immolator, Twin Multimelta
185-Battle Sisters, 2x Flamers, Immolator, Twin Multimelta
185-Battle Sisters, 5x Extra Battle Sisters, 2x Flamer, Rhino, Storm Bolter
240-Dominions, 4x Meltas, Immolator, Twin Multimelta
240-Dominions, 4x Meltas, Immolator, Twin Multimelta
134-Seraphim, 5x Extra Seraphim, 4x Hand Flamer
160-Exorcist
160-Exorcist
85-Retributors, 4x Heavy Bolters

1989

TBH, I don't know if tanks are going to be everywhere, and I need to be ready to kill them, or if the sudden hike in price will make them all but disappear.

Also wondering if I'd rather make 2 Imagifiers into Canonesses and separate into 1 Battalion, 1 Vanguard, and 1 Spearhead to farm CP's. What's more valuable?

Also, are Storm Bolters suddenly better than Flamers? Flamers are D6 Autohits, but Storm Bolters are Rapid Fire 2, so 4 shots at any range I could use a flamer and 2 beyond that. They average out with the flamer slightly higher by a fraction of a wound, but the Storm Bolter is cheaper. If I flipped all the Flamers for Storm Bolters, I'd be able to buy another Imagifier.

I dunno. I'm torn on troops since we get no benefit from them. I'm gonna noodle some more tomorrow.


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Ooh good call on storm bolters. Hmm.

 pretre wrote:
I dunno. I'm torn on troops since we get no benefit from them. I'm gonna noodle some more tomorrow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ooh good call on storm bolters. Hmm.

I just noticed it while trying list permutations. I think I may need more Storm Bolter wielding Sisters, because the range lets them make better use of Divine Guidance, they average the same as flamers up close, have 2 shots at mid range, and are 5 points less.

Troops are the tax for CP's, essentially. The way I see it, Battle Sisters aren't terrible, and at the very least can bring an Immolator to the field to roll around with a Multimelta to harass tanks and monsters, and getting re-rolls would, at the very least, allow more Acts of Faith, or more reliable Exorcists, if nothing else.

Battalion
250-Celestine, 2x Geminae
45-Canoness
40-Imagifier
40-Imagifier
40-Imagifier
175-Battle Sisters, 2x Storm Bolter, Immolator, Twin Multimelta
175-Battle Sisters, 2x Storm Bolter, Immolator, Twin Multimelta
171-Battle Sisters, 5x Extra Battle Sisters, 2x Storm Bolter, Rhino
240-Dominions, 4x Meltas, Immolator, Twin Multimelta
240-Dominions, 4x Meltas, Immolator, Twin Multimelta
134-Seraphim, 5x Extra Seraphim, 4x Hand Flamer
Spearhead:
45-Canoness
160-Exorcist
160-Exorcist
85-Retributors, 4x Heavy Bolters

2000


And, in the vein of my thoughts on vehicles, I'm wondering it I want the Immolation Flamer on the Immolators or if I want Multimeltas. Killing tanks is going to be nigh on impossible, which makes me worried that no matter how many meltaguns I bring I won't have brought enough. But, on the other hand, if the [i]Rhino[I] is 70 points, then maybe it will be too cost-ineffective to run, and I'm not going to see any tanks and would be better just loading out for infantry killing and counting on my Exorcists and 6's from the rest of my army to carry the day against the few vehicles I do see.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
If those are all accurate, i'm terribly bummed. Sisters received the most linear set of rules from 7th - 8th yet, and in doing so, nothing was done to really help them.

Armies like Tyranids and others already have demonstratable ways to Turn 1 assault from across a table, and meanwhile, GW seems afraid to let Acts of Faith even reach "ok" status?

Considering how delicate a pure Sister's army would be, I feel like there would be no harm in going Ynnari-lite with them. Let them get their double-shooting phase at decent odds, considering their special weapons tend to be shorter range anyway. Especially as they're doing so by placing themselves at serious risk of being assaulted to death the next turn.

Oh and Penitent Engines are still mathematically terrible, and unlikely to ever reach the combat where they would presumably do well.

You're just straight up wrong. The new AoFs are insane, especially with how ridiculously brutal penitent engines are.

Firstly, celestine is guaranteed a first turn charge every game (from space marine leaks jumppacks give the standard 9"deepstrike and she can AoF herself into auto succeed range.) Use one on penitent enines and they can move an average of 20" per turn and still shoot their heavy flamers, or move 14" and charge. You can also use them to get around the 'disembark before you move' thing AND still get double shooting for the unit that pops out. Penitent engines can get 4 rounds of attacks per turn with their special ability(as I read it) WITH NO CHANCE AT BEING COUNTER ATTACKED THAT TURN.

Yeah, celestine at least 2 imagifiers are pretty much mandatory but holy gak is there so much cool stuff we can do with even just 2-3 per turn.

Penitent Engines don't have Acts of Faith, so no... you won't be giving them one.

That post was made before full details leaked.


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I still think there' something there with penitent engines (not getting AoF OR SoF is bullgak though) The amount of damage they can kick out is pretty ridiculous, they're special ability is better than Khorne Berzerkers' when it actually goes off and having 18" on average on HF is pretty solid they're also fairly cheap for a vehicle, they're just so fragile...

Maybe a heavy msu list with multiple units of 1 Pengine and just heavy target saturation would free them up to cover the distance...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
I dunno. I'm torn on troops since we get no benefit from them. I'm gonna noodle some more tomorrow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ooh good call on storm bolters. Hmm.

Don't forget that flamers get +d6 to their range due to being able to advance and shoot. It's actually a compelling choice now tbh, is just wish both were better.

ERJAK wrote:
Don't forget that flamers get +d6 to their range due to being able to advance and shoot. It's actually a compelling choice now tbh, is just wish both were better.

Flamers also get d6 auto hits from overwatch, providing the enemy is within 8", whereas the stormbolter is hitting on 6s. Still, it's definitely a compelling choice, I think which you go with will depend on if you're expecting to get charged by hordes of light infantry like boyz or cultists.

 Hoboanarki wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Don't forget that flamers get +d6 to their range due to being able to advance and shoot. It's actually a compelling choice now tbh, is just wish both were better.

Flamers also get d6 auto hits from overwatch, providing the enemy is within 8", whereas the stormbolter is hitting on 6s. Still, it's definitely a compelling choice, I think which you go with will depend on if you're expecting to get charged by hordes of light infantry like boyz or cultists.

Also Flamers autohit Flyers I think.....

The interesting thing will be mixing and matching the weapons inside units. Now that every weapon can fire at a different target, what is the optimal mix for the current environment? The answer will be different in each case, but adding another body to the unit is an option too (since the melta gun costs more than the sister does!)
Long have we laughed at the GW Battle Sister Squad with a Stormbolter and a Melta gun... might they have been on to something?
BSS starting at 9 points a model? Dominions starting at 10? I'm pretty happy. That and the Imagifier being an elite... that covers my main concern about running a battalion.

I think with the way acts of faith work, sticking to single weapons per squad will still be the way to go, but I may be wrong.

 Hoboanarki wrote:
I think with the way acts of faith work, sticking to single weapons per squad will still be the way to go, but I may be wrong.

Why? You can still split shoots because it happens just as if it were the shooting phase.

I'm leaning towards a rough core of:

Disruption Force
Canoness
2x5 Dominions, 4 meltas, Immolators with twin-melta

Main Body
Celestine
3x10 Sisters, HF, Flamer, Rhino

Support Force
Canoness
2x Exorcist

I'll have to work out the points later but that should give the important units reroll 1s to hit and give me enough mobility to cover objectives and firepower to threaten big monsters/knights.

Did you guys also notice that acro's have a save of 7+!

How the hell does that work

Trying to figure out what will be the new spot for armies.
Took a current 7th edition 1850 points sister army consisting of:

Double CAD

Celestine
Jacobus
4 x 5 BSS with Meltas in Immo
2 x 5 BSS with Meltas in Immo (not using repressor since we have no points for it right now)
7 Seraphims with Hand Flamers
3 Exorcists
9 x Retributors with 4 HBs and Simulacrum

Point wise in the new format this comes to 2349 points.

Given how people rarely like giving up on their toys when playing, the standard game size will likely go from 1500-1850 to 2000-2500 to account for the point difference.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 L1ttle wrote:
Did you guys also notice that acro's have a save of 7+!

How the hell does that work

A 7+ save is the new "-". It just means that the unit does not have a save until it steps into cover, at which point it gains a +1 and go to a 6+ save.

In general both infantri and verhicles became more expensive.
Let's take a look at common loadouts:

5 sisters with HF, melta was 80 points in 7th and is 79 in 8th.
5 Dominions with 4 melta's was 105 in 7th and is 118 in 8th
5 Retributers with 4 HF was 100 in 7th and is 113 in 8th

After this I recalulated my current 1000 point list. With the 8th ed codex it became a lot more expensive.

7th ed list:
Canoness, book of st. Lucius. 70
2x 5 sisters. Flamer, HF, melta bombs, rhino 240
2x 5 dominions, 4 melta, rhino. ( 1 laud hailer) 300
2x exorcists 250
5 retributers. 4 HF, rhino

Total: 1000 points

8th ed:

Canoness, no upgrades 45
2x 5 sisters, flamer, HF, rhino. 288
2x 5 dominions, 4 melta, rhino. 382
2x exorcist 320
5 retributers, 4 hf, rhino: 186

Total: 1221 points.
Missing, 2 melta bombs, 1 laud hailer, 1 book of st. Lucius

Although the base costs are lowered. With the points increase on weapons and verhicles. They entire list became a lot more expensive :(

I'm thinking mixing weapons for Doms is a lot more important. After all, you can't ignore cover any more, so having a few flamers isn't as bad an idea.

My thinking on not mixing weapons was that if I want to take down something big, I want to fire 8 melta shots, if I want to take down a horde I want to fire 8D6 flamer shots. I'd rather focus down one target than spread my shooting across multiple targets.

That's probably personal preference though, I'll be giving mixed squads a go.

Also, another important note is that flamers don't ignore cover anymore.

Mostly, I'm waiting for the rules on bubbles out of vehicles. That's my main limitation on what I do with my lists next.


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Oh wait, I found it. No bubbles don't work. Apologies to who I doubted.

I have screen shots of every page of every new book on my google drive if anyone is interested.

I'm imagining a groundpounder list that's heavier on hospitallers, but I really don't know if I want to put it together right now. Thinking maybe 3*15 battle sisters with storm bolters and meltaguns, 2*5 celestians with storm bolters, 2 hospitallers, canoness, and 2*5 retributors with heavy bolters.

More just to try it out than anything else. The hospitallers look quite useful, but also a bit fragile.

ERJAK wrote:

Don't forget that flamers get +d6 to their range due to being able to advance and shoot. It's actually a compelling choice now tbh, is just wish both were better.

Why are flamers able to fire after advance? Even with advancing, flamers achieve effectiveness out of 8+d6".

Also, Storm Bolters achieve equivalent effectiveness at 12" and half effectiveness out to 24"

pretre wrote:I'm thinking mixing weapons for Doms is a lot more important. After all, you can't ignore cover any more, so having a few flamers isn't as bad an idea.

It doesn't look like flamers ignore cover anymore, either, from the IG stuff. Eradicator Nova Cannon has a special clause to ignore cover, and flamers don't.