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Well, that is good to know. I have one game down so far.

It really depends on the opponent's army too. Sniper's are a non-threat to Tyranids outside of trying to off a Broodlord, as their best characters are also over the "safe" wound-count.

Other armies, like Orks, can be DRASTICALLY reduced in usefulness with just a handful of snipers.

I'm going to try this tonight.

BN:
Canoness
Canoness
3x10 Sisters, HF, flamer, combi-flamer
2x Exorcist
Penitent Engine, buzz blades, 2x HF
2x 5 dominions, 4 melta, combi-melta, immolator with twin multimelta
2x Imagifer

Vanguard:
Celestine
Mistress of Repentance
9 Repentia
8 Repentia

1992 points, 7 CP

Let us know. That's certainly not what i would run, but am curious.

Crost post from army lists, but what do you think about this:

Well I just read at BOLS and confirmed for myself that Celestine isnt a 0-1 choice. The Emperor truly protects!

With his manyfould divine guidence, even the untrained masses can take on the forces of evil and truimph!

1850 Imperial Battallion with two High Command Detachments (5 CP)

[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] Company Commander
[list] Commissar
[list] Priest
[list] 50 Conscripts
[list] 50 Conscripts
[list] 5 Sisters /w Heavy Bolter

Even if your enemy might have less units and thus the first turn, he'll hardly manage to kill 100 conscripts in a single turn. Better hide the commissar though. On your turn, you have 7 24" flying movement chargers of death hopping around killing his important units first. Who happen to come back when killed, first by their 2+ divine roll and after that by killing the saint before her gemina and then Act of Faithing her back with d3 wounds.

Ossa wrote:
Well I just read at BOLS and confirmed for myself that Celestine isnt a 0-1 choice. The Emperor truly protects!

BOLS is about a week behind. And no sane TO is going to allow multiple Celestines without a FAQ.

Also, we discussed this a while back, if you're going to take multiples, make sure to take Seraphim.

Yeah Unless GW rule it so - thats not going to work....

Allthough maybe they really want to sell those Trimuverate boxes.....

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah Unless GW rule it so - thats not going to work....

Allthough maybe they really want to sell those Trimuverate boxes.....

The unfortunate part is that it does work UNLESS they speak up. Just no one will allow it. lol

ERJAK wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

war wrote:
Pistols can be shot in hand to hand.

Yeah that thing is very useless in reality. Especially on units with fly, who automatically have hit and run. It might be more useful on a big BSS squad, defensively, if enough of them are still alive after the first round of combat…

It's useful on large groups of seraphim who get charged, so long as they have maxed out pistols and at least 3 models survive.

Large groups of seraphim that get charged have two options during their next move phase:
- either they fall back, shoot and charge to be sure to fight first
- or they stay in combat, shoot, and then maybe fight first maybe last
The second option is strictly worse than the first one.
Hence shooting pistols in combat is useless for Seraphims.

if I ran 2 squads of 9 Repentia supported behind a Mistress, all behind a blob of conscripts, how valid/threatening is that from all of your vantage points?

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
if I ran 2 squads of 9 Repentia supported behind a Mistress, all behind a blob of conscripts, how valid/threatening is that from all of your vantage points?

I think the Repentia/Mistress would be better off in a transport, either a Rhino or an Exorcist to help them reach combat.
Maybe with a Priest too to get them that extra attack.

But to be honest with you I think Death Cult Assassins are the better Ministorum combat unit.
Supported by a priest.
They both cost the same amount of points (17) but I think the Assassins are flat out better.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Large groups of seraphim that get charged have two options during their next move phase:
- either they fall back, shoot and charge to be sure to fight first
- or they stay in combat, shoot, and then maybe fight first maybe last
The second option is strictly worse than the first one.
Hence shooting pistols in combat is useless for Seraphims.

If Seraphim fall back, they can't charge again that turn.

- either they fall back, shoot and allow the rest of the army to shoot
- or they stay in combat, shoot, and fight again, locking the unit down


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dan2026 wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
if I ran 2 squads of 9 Repentia supported behind a Mistress, all behind a blob of conscripts, how valid/threatening is that from all of your vantage points?

I think the Repentia/Mistress would be better off in a transport, either a Rhino or an Exorcist to help them reach combat.
Maybe with a Priest too to get them that extra attack.

But to be honest with you I think Death Cult Assassins are the better Ministorum combat unit.
Supported by a priest.
They both cost the same amount of points (17) but I think the Assassins are flat out better.

Crusaders are a bit slower, but get AoF.

And Repentia are just waaaay too expensive.

 pretre wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

They both cost the same amount of points (17) but I think the Assassins are flat out better.

Crusaders are a bit slower, but get AoF.

And Repentia are just waaaay too expensive.

Hmm you make a great point there.
Crusaders get AoF, Storm Shield and Power Swords for 15 points.
1 less movement and strength and 2 less attacks as DC Assassins.
But better armour penetration and that 3++ is mighty sexy, yes it is.

Either way they are both miles better than Repentia.

sad panda :( I have 1 crusader, 2 death cults, and 17 repentia...I shall press on regardless and inform you all of the mounting causalities of the scantily clad.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
sad panda :( I have 1 crusader, 2 death cults, and 17 repentia...I shall press on regardless and inform you all of the mounting causalities of the scantily clad.

Do yourself a favor and get any set of plastic fantasy infantry with shields. Bam you've got crusaders.

haha great idea!!

Also side note here, while i was lamenting the loss of the Sororitas command squad ( as I ran them with dual heavy flamers in a Repressor) I suppose I can do that still for cheaper with Retributors now. They are just worse at CC, but who am I kidding I hardly used them for CC anyway. Do loose a heavy support slot doing that though

 pretre wrote:
If Seraphim fall back, they can't charge again that turn.

I thought fly allowed them to do that.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
haha great idea!!

Also side note here, while i was lamenting the loss of the Sororitas command squad ( as I ran them with dual heavy flamers in a Repressor) I suppose I can do that still for cheaper with Retributors now. They are just worse at CC, but who am I kidding I hardly used them for CC anyway. Do loose a heavy support slot doing that though

There's no 'losing' heavy support slots. Just take a spearhead and all HB rets.

As an aside, I managed to trade for Chaos marine HB, which look to work perfect with Heavy Weapon sisters and I will be fielding 12 or so HB in my 2k list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
If Seraphim fall back, they can't charge again that turn.

I thought fly allowed them to do that.

Not that I saw. Just shoot.

Find me a page reference though, if you can.

Our SoF anti-psychic ability seems pretty disappointing. Basically it's a 1.8% chance of denying a WC5 power (Smite most likely). It doesnt work on any power that has a WC of 6 or more, and I don't think there is any power with WC4 or less currently in the game.
And my beloved condemnor boltgun is gone, sad :-( I think it's time to call the Culexus hotline for anti-psy stuff.

 pretre wrote:
Let us know. That's certainly not what i would run, but am curious.

Ended up playing a Necron list with 3 command barges, 2 ghost arcs, one monolith, 5 wraiths, 3x 10 warriors and 9 immortals. Mission was Big Guns and the Necron player choose Vanguard because he could get two in his corner and force me to attack towards the center of the table (knowing the Necron player would pick deployment, I had deliberately spaced my two objectives to prevent him from getting three in any zone).

Mixed reviews for the list.

The Repentia are still too fragile. I was able to use Act of Faith movement to get a turn one charge with one unit into a warrior blob that had advanced towards center and my opponent spent the CP to interrupt the charging fighters to swing the warriors first (I had fought a penitent engine combat first since the engine had charged the wraiths). Stock warriors hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s simply decimated them. The other unit had been vaporized by Necron fire on turn one. A Rhino would probably help, but that pushes the total cost for a unit of 9 into dominion range and I don't think they add enough utility.

The Penitent Engine was really good. The dice were fluky (I missed a lot of attacks and rolled a lot of 1s when trying to wound, but made a lot of 5+ saves in return) but he managed to frustrate the wraiths enough that the Necron player decided to abandon the combat rather than grind it out. The automatic damage of 3 is fantastic and between buzz blades and heavy flamers they pack a decent punch. Well worth the 129 points. Movement 7" is also fast enough to make it to combat relatively unhurt.

The foot sisters did well. With two canonesses it was easy to keep them buffed up and when the command barges came close, 3d6 flamer hits plus 16 boltguns rerolling ones does a surprising amount of damage. They were really good at clearing out Necron warrior squads too.

Acts of Faith are awesome. Out of sequence actions are huge right now. I twice freed up Celestine with a bonus fight phase to kill the 1-2 models tying her up and then took a normal turn and dominion out of phase shooting killed a command barge.

There is probably some math to be done on DC Assassins vs Crusaders. I think they both have their uses.

Repentia sadly not.

So the old mixed units of Ministorum or Inquisition agents are gone, but because of the new transport rules you can still deliver a mix of models to a spot on the board with a particular purpose. What about a Priest and a combination of Crusaders and DCAs plus an Inquisitor. Extra attacks from the Priest, LD 9 from the Inquisitor, pretty good AP modifiers on the attack, plus rerolls from Zealot, good saves with the Storm Shields... you could even fill empty seats with 3-wound Acolytes. Obviously your opponent can select targets at will in the shooting phase, but if the transport held up, they could almost arrive as a unit.

Downsides are being targeted individually, taking up multiple FoC slots, and giving up tons of VPs in certain missions. Is it even worth experimenting with?

 RabbitMaster wrote:
Our SoF anti-psychic ability seems pretty disappointing. Basically it's a 1.8% chance of denying a WC5 power (Smite most likely). It doesnt work on any power that has a WC of 6 or more, and I don't think there is any power with WC4 or less currently in the game.
And my beloved condemnor boltgun is gone, sad :-( I think it's time to call the Culexus hotline for anti-psy stuff.

Yes, SoF sucks at Denying.

Condemnor still exists though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MacPhail wrote:
So the old mixed units of Ministorum or Inquisition agents are gone, but because of the new transport rules you can still deliver a mix of models to a spot on the board with a particular purpose. What about a Priest and a combination of Crusaders and DCAs plus an Inquisitor. Extra attacks from the Priest, LD 9 from the Inquisitor, pretty good AP modifiers on the attack, plus rerolls from Zealot, good saves with the Storm Shields... you could even fill empty seats with 3-wound Acolytes. Obviously your opponent can select targets at will in the shooting phase, but if the transport held up, they could almost arrive as a unit.

Downsides are being targeted individually, taking up multiple FoC slots, and giving up tons of VPs in certain missions. Is it even worth experimenting with?

Yeah, I just don't see it working that well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:
The Repentia are still too fragile. I was able to use Act of Faith movement to get a turn one charge with one unit into a warrior blob that had advanced towards center and my opponent spent the CP to interrupt the charging fighters to swing the warriors first (I had fought a penitent engine combat first since the engine had charged the wraiths). Stock warriors hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s simply decimated them. The other unit had been vaporized by Necron fire on turn one. A Rhino would probably help, but that pushes the total cost for a unit of 9 into dominion range and I don't think they add enough utility.

A note here. The CP interrupt only works after a unit has swung on the charge. So you want to pick your fragile unit to swing first, then they can CP, then you do the rest of your chargers.

The Penitent Engine was really good. The dice were fluky (I missed a lot of attacks and rolled a lot of 1s when trying to wound, but made a lot of 5+ saves in return) but he managed to frustrate the wraiths enough that the Necron player decided to abandon the combat rather than grind it out. The automatic damage of 3 is fantastic and between buzz blades and heavy flamers they pack a decent punch. Well worth the 129 points. Movement 7" is also fast enough to make it to combat relatively unhurt.

Good to hear!

Acts of Faith are awesome. Out of sequence actions are huge right now. I twice freed up Celestine with a bonus fight phase to kill the 1-2 models tying her up and then took a normal turn and dominion out of phase shooting killed a command barge.

Bonus fight phase for Celestine is awesome. Also, the double move on turn 1 almost always gets you a charge.

What about taking the Culexus and/or Karamazov for the penalties to Psychic tests? If they get a -1 to 3 to their tests, suddenly beating them with a single d6 seems possible as a lot more tests will barely succeed?

On the whole though, I'm not 100% sure it's actually worth doing simply because psychic powers seem so weak this edition. There are a few very strong ones though, so maybe it's worth the added insurance against Eldar/Orks/Nids?

In regards to Repentia, what about using them as counter chargers? Basically, hanging them back to charge whatever gets in with your other squads? Especially if it is something like a Dreadnaught, Wraithlord or other Monstrous creature? Or even just the toughness 5 -6 type stuff? It would seem like Repentia would do much better against them. 5+ against Toughness 8 vs 6+, toughness 7 is the same, 4+ against toughness 6 vs 5+, and 3+ vs toughness 5 instead of 5+?

It also helps mitigate their frailty since they aren't going to be out in the front lines. That is pretty much their one advantage of Death Cultist. Death Cultist get loads of attacks and inherent Zealot - Repentia can pay for a Mistress and get rerollable advance/charges and hits (which more than makes up for 4+ instead of 3+) Repentia also get more value out of the +1 Attack from Priests. Also, Repentia get Acts of Faith. Even if you kill half the unit, the other half can potentially fight twice - once before you have a chance to bring the fight back. Crusaders do too, but Crusaders are S3 - which means 6+ starting at toughness 6 and 5+ starting at toughness 4. The 3+ invulnerable is nice, no doubt but for counterchargers OR a unit that is hanging out in a transport, I don't think that will be quite good enough to make up for S3 vs S6.

Here is something worth discussing.

Should we aim to go First or are we fine with going Second in the turn order?


Going first means you can cripple key targets in your opponents army before they get a chance to react, especially with double shooting turns from acts of faith.
It does however limit you in the detachments you can use. Going for a Brigade almost necessarily means you will have more drops than your opponent since you have to go somewhat MSU.


Going second means you are giving your opponent possible turn 1, almost certainly turn 2 charges and these could tie up critical units of yours. He also gets to shoot you, removing some of your firepower, before you can return it.
It does however mean you don't have to care about the number of drops you have and can optimize for as many command points as possible. You also get the last word on objective grabbing.


I am curious to find out what people think based on the above. Do you want to try and get first turn? If so, what list will you bring? And if you're playing for the second turn, and objective grabbing, how are you going to make this happen?











Automatically Appended Next Post:
In line with my previous post, here is my attempt at going first with double outrider detachments



1 Celestine Geminae Geminae
1 Canoness

1 Imagifier

5 Dominions Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun
1 Immolator Immolation Flamer StormBolter
5 Dominions Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun
1 Immolator Immolation Flamer StormBolter
9 Dominions Flamer Flamer Flamer Flamer Combi Flamer
1 Rhino Storm Bolter Storm Bolter

10 Retributors Multi Melta Multi Melta Multi Melta Multi Melta


1 Canoness

2 Imagifier

5 Dominions Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun
1 Immolator Immolation Flamer StormBolter
5 Dominions Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun
1 Immolator Immolation Flamer StormBolter
9 Dominions Flamer Flamer Flamer Flamer Combi Flamer
1 Rhino Storm Bolter Storm Bolter


1990 points out of 2000. Total of 11 drops.

All Immolator dominions scout forward. Disembark on their move phase and do their things. Could also move another 12 inch forward and disembark next turn.

Canonesses go with the Rhino Dominions. Celestine and the imagifiers AoF those Rhinos so they can move up, disembark and support the Immolator Dominions on first turn.

Imagifiers start on the edge of your deployment zone and move up turn one, possibly advancing to try and catch up with the rest of your army. They should be shielded by the Retributors. If anything this unit is a bait and if your opponent doesnt deal with it, turn 2 it's likely in his phase shooting 4 multi meltas twice due to the 3 imagifiers.

The Happy Anarchist wrote:
What about taking the Culexus and/or Karamazov for the penalties to Psychic tests? If they get a -1 to 3 to their tests, suddenly beating them with a single d6 seems possible as a lot more tests will barely succeed?

Not a fan of taking something to counter a minority of lists.

In regards to Repentia, what about using them as counter chargers? Basically, hanging them back to charge whatever gets in with your other squads? Especially if it is something like a Dreadnaught, Wraithlord or other Monstrous creature? Or even just the toughness 5 -6 type stuff? It would seem like Repentia would do much better against them. 5+ against Toughness 8 vs 6+, toughness 7 is the same, 4+ against toughness 6 vs 5+, and 3+ vs toughness 5 instead of 5+?

Yuck. We go through this every edtion. I just don't think they are that good even counter charging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Voldrak: That's pretty standard Dom list. Keep in mind that sometimes you just won't get to go first though.

 pretre wrote:

 RabbitMaster wrote:
Our SoF anti-psychic ability seems pretty disappointing. Basically it's a 1.8% chance of denying a WC5 power (Smite most likely). It doesnt work on any power that has a WC of 6 or more, and I don't think there is any power with WC4 or less currently in the game.
And my beloved condemnor boltgun is gone, sad :-( I think it's time to call the Culexus hotline for anti-psy stuff.

Yes, SoF sucks at Denying.

Condemnor still exists though.

Yeah, but it changed drastically. It's not the psyker sniper it once was.
I just realized that i'm missing the point page for Sister in the leaks I downloaded, but if it's 1pts/condemnor like the inquisition one, it might be interesting to have every superior wielding one (if the psyker become a threatening enough part of the meta of course).

It's 1pt.

I can't decide how many exorcists are too many.

When you can't lift you army transport bag/box anymore, then it's too many.