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 deviantduck wrote:
I can't decide how many exorcists are too many.

I think you want a mix of stuff. Exos are great but don't do horde well. HB rets though? They can handle that.

Heavy Bolters are pretty big winners in this edition. I might actuallu have to field some just because the horde armies scare me enough.

 pretre wrote:
In regards to Repentia, what about using them as counter chargers? Basically, hanging them back to charge whatever gets in with your other squads? Especially if it is something like a Dreadnaught, Wraithlord or other Monstrous creature? Or even just the toughness 5 -6 type stuff? It would seem like Repentia would do much better against them. 5+ against Toughness 8 vs 6+, toughness 7 is the same, 4+ against toughness 6 vs 5+, and 3+ vs toughness 5 instead of 5+?

Yuck. We go through this every edtion. I just don't think they are that good even counter charging.

I don't have access to the book at the moment-- what armor save do Crusaders have, or is it just the shield? Cause I'm seriously thinking of adapting some sword and board dnd models as a Crusaders squad if I can find some of the right scale.

The problem with repentias is not their damage output, it's how fragile they are.

It's over 200 points and close to 300 once you account for the Rhino to get them where they need to do.

There are units that are much more efficient for that point cost.

If you want to make them more resilient, while keep them in the spirit, they need the following changes:

Repentias gain Driven Forward by default. This should be on them and not granted by the mistress.


Mistresses Angelic Visage needs to apply to herself and any units of repentias within 6 inches.
Add a Special ability to the mistress where she can bring back 1d3 dead repentias back, to a single unit within 6 inches, at the beginning of your turn. Would be in character where she whips them back up to continue the fight.

Wishlist aside, 17 points a model for how fragile they are will not see them in any competitive lists. They will show up for fun once in awhile, but they're still a sub-optimal choice.

Yeah just take a penitent engine and a priest. Same amount of points as 8 repentia only with a 4+ save (no invul hurts but meh) and against anything T9 or lower it's 5 attacks hitting on 3s rerolling wounding on 3s (2s against T5) with 3 damage with better rend and the double attack a pengine does 11.11 damage on average to a T6-9 3+ save model AND still has 2 heavy flamers AND gives you a priest buff AND doesn't waste AoFs.

Oh man, you don't even know. I put a pound of nuts in each of my vehicles. I was sick of the exo's being heavy and my rhinos and repressors light. So each vehicle is full with nuts that are glued in place.

ERJAK wrote:
Yeah just take a penitent engine and a priest. Same amount of points as 8 repentia only with a 4+ save (no invul hurts but meh) and against anything T9 or lower it's 5 attacks hitting on 3s rerolling wounding on 3s (2s against T5) with 3 damage with better rend and the double attack a pengine does 11.11 damage on average to a T6-9 3+ save model AND still has 2 heavy flamers AND gives you a priest buff AND doesn't waste AoFs.

Priest doesn't buff the Engine It's not infantry. So it only gets 4 attacks.

The Penitent Engine is theoretically tougher than Repentia. It's also impossible to hide, will have trouble taking advantage of cover and is not substantially tougher when you consider the fact that it's gonna be eating a large portion of the anti-tank weaponry. Offense wise, I think the Penitent Engine isn't quite equal to a Priest backed squad of Repentia. If you get the extra round of combat half the time, on average it's similar to 6 attacks a turn. It has zealot so we will give it the reroll to hit. Should easily get 5 hits. Str 10 means it wounds on a 2+ all the way up to toughness 5. So pretty much any infantry/termies/bikers you are getting 4 wounds very reliably. AP -3 means 5+ to 6+ saves. So killing 3 Termies, and 3-4 bikers or 3+ save stuff. Against the same sort of stuff Repentia end up getting 8-12 kills. It's not even really close. The Engine has some other big advantages though of course. Toughness 6 4+ save and 7 wounds is much more resilient than the Repentia. Except if the enemy starts shooting it with Krak Missiles or Lascannons. 4 of those actually kills a Penitent Engine on average.

Which is why I think Repentia work better as counter chargers in a footslogging list. This goes for Death Cultists too since they are very similar, just better against different targets. You don't need the Rhino, so you can go with the full 10 of them. They will be hanging out behind the other sisters so you don't have to worry about incoming fire unless it ignores LOS.

Penitent Engines in a mech list? I think that's much more a potential option. You don't have to worry about keeping Priest/Mistresses/Imagifiers/Celestine in range. The enemies anti-tank is going to be spread thin between all the vehicles running around. Tasking 4 anti-tank weapons to the Penitent Engine has a much bigger opportunity cost than when they are gonna have nothing to shoot but the Penitent Engine or maybe an Exorcist. Though even that I'm not sure I would take in a footslogging list because again - every single anti-tank weapon the enemy has is going to have an open target.

Though if we are wishlisting, I think just giving them Angelic Visage would help a lot. That's a 30% chance to save, 55% with Celestine nearby. That puts them right near or surpassing the survivability of Death Cultists.

Why even waste time thinking about a footslog list? Sisters can't pull any kind of infantry heavy build off just based on having next to nothing to mitigate battleshock.

You go mech or you lose, the only question is 'how do i mitigate turn 1 charges.' The answer there is either Battle Sisters, Repentia, Death Cults, Crusaders, or Penitent Engines. Basic Battle Sisters are cheap bubblewrap but don't do much else. Repentia and death cult are killy but so fragile a stiff fart will knock out 2 units of either, crusaders are tough but hit like a wet noodle and Penitent engines fold hard under d6 damage attacks.

The Penitent Engine just has the best mix of survivability and damage output. Keep in mind the comparison you made from the previous wall of text is a 9 unit of repentia with a priest, which is approaching the cost of 2 pengines. Point for point repentia do significantly less damage which means you save all those points you spend buffing up your chaff for a unit that does the same job almost as well but you have an extra rhino now

If by "Battleshock" you mean "morale checks", there's a character for that who's actually pretty cheap, in the Dialogous.

Rerolls to morale are risky though, you could end up killing more models if you roll badly the second time.

If you have the points, Inquisitors can boost your leadership, although not by much.

You have to lose three sisters before you can fail morale (and then you only lose one on a 6). I think foot Sisters can be viable now given the reduced damage against them by some of the popular S5 weapons and the relative ease with which infantry gain cover.

I'm using Conscripts to mitigate first turn charges because I have a ton of Redemptionists. 50 for 150 is a steal. Get a 30 point Commissar and they aren't running either.


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The Happy Anarchist wrote:

 pretre wrote:
In regards to Repentia, what about using them as counter chargers? Basically, hanging them back to charge whatever gets in with your other squads? Especially if it is something like a Dreadnaught, Wraithlord or other Monstrous creature? Or even just the toughness 5 -6 type stuff? It would seem like Repentia would do much better against them. 5+ against Toughness 8 vs 6+, toughness 7 is the same, 4+ against toughness 6 vs 5+, and 3+ vs toughness 5 instead of 5+?

Yuck. We go through this every edtion. I just don't think they are that good even counter charging.

Yeah, something went weird with the quote. It swapped our names.

In regards to morale. Max squad size we get is 15. Dialogus costs 15. Leadership is 8 pretty much across the board.

Taking 5 casualties leads to d6-3 extra casualties. Ten is d6+2. don't think the rerolls are that risky overall. You don't reroll a 3 or maybe even a 4 unless you take a lot of casualties and it will wipe the unit anyway, or just a few even if you roll high.

I've seen people talk about stopping killing big units when you get to certain morale levels but that in and of itself is risky. Kill ten sisters and stop, hoping for morale to finish them and you can just spend 2CP to no sale it.

Dialogus is plenty to help the ten sister units stand and CP can help the big ones if needed. It's much easier in a foot slogging list to get lots of CP as well.

Conscripts and Commissars sound awesome.

If you take little units, you don't care about morale.

The problem with small squads is that you're going to have a harder time holding objectives.

Whatever unit has the most models is the one that will be holding the objective.

There are so many things contradicting themselves, making you go one way only to push you in the other direction right now that it's impossible to predict how armies are going to evolve.

Except maybe for Orcs. Mass group of boys are going to be great for morale AND objective holding

Right now, and this may change, my theory is that small squads help me kill stuff. Except for my Conscripts.

What do y'all think of doubling up units in transports?

If you load 2 BSS units with F+HF+CF in a Rhino with double SB, that's 2d6 auto hits at S5/AP-1 and 4d6 auto hits at S4/AP0. In a pinch, you could give up your HF hits to Advance in order to get the rest into 8" range. That's a 241 point package of three units. Three such combos is 723 points and forms the six-Troop basis for a Brigade.

Do the same trick with Retributers (4xHF+CF) and you've got 8d6 auto hits at S5/AP-1 and 2d6 at S4/AP0. That group needs to arrive in 8" range without Advancing, making it a little riskier. That outfit is 325 points.

Selective use of the CP re-rolls and AoF extra phases amplifies the impact of these combos.

I hear the "too many eggs in one basket" objection, but if you could really be decisive about how you advance, choose when and where you're likely to get your Rhino shot out from under you, and diligently avoid losing models to the "can't be placed" rule, I think it might work for a mech army. If you also deploy tons of Exos and Immo Doms to force your opponent to spread his anti-tank around, you're that much more likely to unload safely in range.

I might look at a list with 3x Exos, 3x Immo Doms, and 3x double BSS Rhinos as the basis for a 2000 point Brigade. There's room for Celestine & Friends, 2 Canonesses, 3 Imagifiers, and even a squad of HF Seraphim by my back o' the napkin math. Lots of anti-tank, lots of anti-horde, and lots of vehicle wounds to chew through.

My problem with that is Ork Boys or Hormies or Scarabs. You advance to within range for a next turn shot, they surround and you lost three units.

If you can get enough threats to make them not want to go for the double transport, that'll be good, but it seems to me that the 'three for one' would be the best target even with multiple threats.

If you're going to do this, and I don't advise it, do it with Dominions. Pre-game vanguard 12+1d6, drop payload, advance the Dominions 6+1d6. Minimum 28" threat range with flamers, 32" with meltaguns, or 44" with storm bolters

Taikishi wrote:
If you're going to do this, and I don't advise it, do it with Dominions. Pre-game vanguard 12+1d6, drop payload, advance the Dominions 6+1d6. Minimum 28" threat range with flamers, 32" with meltaguns, or 44" with storm bolters

You raise a point that I have been wondering about.

The Vanguard move mentions "As in the movement phase..." and the same is true for our Act of Faith allowing us to move.

This is not our movement phase and that seems to be clear enough, but what exactly can we do?

Can you indeed move + advance and then still fire weapons in your shooting phase since it did not happen in your actual movement phase? If that is true, then it makes our AoF for moving even more powerful.

Ooh good call on advancing.


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Unfortunately, you couldn't shoot or charge. But still neat that you can do it in the pre-game Vanguard.

Voldrak wrote:

Taikishi wrote:
If you're going to do this, and I don't advise it, do it with Dominions. Pre-game vanguard 12+1d6, drop payload, advance the Dominions 6+1d6. Minimum 28" threat range with flamers, 32" with meltaguns, or 44" with storm bolters

You raise a point that I have been wondering about.

The Vanguard move mentions "As in the movement phase..." and the same is true for our Act of Faith allowing us to move.

This is not our movement phase and that seems to be clear enough, but what exactly can we do?

Can you indeed move + advance and then still fire weapons in your shooting phase since it did not happen in your actual movement phase? If that is true, then it makes our AoF for moving even more powerful.

Don't see why not. Believe the FLG guys mentioned doing it in their Q&A videos with things like (I think) Genestealers. Doesn't mean they were playing it right, but as written you move as if it were the movement phase, meaning you can advance an additional 1d6 inches.


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 pretre wrote:
Ooh good call on advancing.


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Unfortunately, you couldn't shoot or charge. But still neat that you can do it in the pre-game Vanguard.

Except that, other than the storm bolters (because I keep forgetting they're rapid fire now), Dominions can advance and still fire their meltaguns at -1 to hit, or fire flamers with no penalty.

Yes, you could do it with -1 to hit if you did it with Faith or during the movement phase.

 pretre wrote:
If you take little units, you don't care about morale.

I worry about objectives. Not just claiming them, since it's numbers of models and ten dudes vs two groups of five is the same. The bigger issue is that a whole lot of the objectives are destroy a unit or multiple units. Having a bunch of five man units males it much easier to score VPs off of you.

Sure. But the reverse is true as well.


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Since I'm sure a couple people might need a method for making more HB sisters, I figured I'd do a quick pic of what I'm doing to make my extra 6.

This is quick and dirty and I only used enough glue to hold it in place for the pic.











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That's a Chaos 'tactical' heavy bolter from the main CSM kit. Pretty much any non-backpack fed HB would work though (scout, Sternguard, etc).


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I could also turn the hand and add a Peg to the top of the HB so she's holding it like the existing one. Not sure if I'll put that much effort in though.

Alternatively, turn the hand and cradle the bottom.

Do you cast the body?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Do you cast the body?

No, but I have tons of heavy sisters, I have a tendency just to pop off the heavy and pop a new one on based on what I need.

Not sure if this was brought up before.


Heavy flamers are now heavy d6. We already know this and it means you cannot advance and still shoot like you would a normal flamer.

The Immolation Flamer however is Assault 2d6.. so yeah you can always advance with your immolator and still shoot the weapons.
These things are going to be great to zoom around the battle field where you need them.

If anyone needs some heavy bolters I can cast you some. As long as you're not a prick and don't mind waiting a few weeks.

20170607_182710 by deviantduck, on Flickr