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ERJAK wrote:
Also 4.8 Lascannon hits is 7 lascannon shots which is 266pts and doesn't count the gemini.

By contrast, shooting up a Rhino will require an average of 3 unsaved lascannons, which is 3 * 6/5 * 3/2 = 5.4. Celestine by herself is not tougher than a rhino against big weapons (though you do have to kill her twice). I don't get the argument that people don't like shooting her at all. This was definitely not true of the 135pt version which drew all kinds of S6 and above fire since she was one roll of a 1 away from using her AoF. Only the most recent version was tough enough that I wanted her at the front of whatever unit she was with.

Saying she's the best unit in our codex isn't exactly saying much given how few options we have and given that this edition made melta gun spam so much more expensive points-wise and less reliable vehicle kill-wise.

 Hoboanarki wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

You roll the 6 for each and I would take that one every time, but that's because I tend to use her as a wrecking ball more than a scalpel. I also am still not 100% sold on seraphim, especially with how wonky the 5++ rerollable is.

Beacon of faith adds one to the invulnerable save, rather than the invulnerable save ROLL, so it isn't actually affected by the re-rolls before modifiers rule since it's not actually modifying the die roll.

Hmmmmm, debatable - we really need this FAQ'd. I checked for similar wording and being in Cover states 'add 1 to models' saving throws...' and assuming throw=roll I do see that the seraphim wording omits either of these words. You could argue it's the same difference as 'add 1 to your to hit rolls' vs. 'add 1 to your WS/BS'. But clarification from GW definitely required.

Or ideally I'd rather see Angelic Visage worded as 'you can reroll failed Shield of Faith Invulnerable saves for this unit'

Bear in mind that the reroll page in the rulebook says that you don't add/subtract any modifiers until after the reroll (if applicable).

So, if you get to reroll 1s, but have -1 to hit from something, you wouldn't reroll 2s. Those would just miss.

 vipoid wrote:
Bear in mind that the reroll page in the rulebook says that you don't add/subtract any modifiers until after the reroll (if applicable).

So, if you get to reroll 1s, but have -1 to hit from something, you wouldn't reroll 2s. Those would just miss.

I pointed that out online recently and got torn to shreds for "the worst kind of gamesmanship". Apparently people refuse to believe a very clearly, deliberately spelled out, written rule right out of the rule-book.

Likewise the rules repeatedly point out that dice that roll 1 before any modifiers, are considered failures, period.

 vipoid wrote:
Bear in mind that the reroll page in the rulebook says that you don't add/subtract any modifiers until after the reroll (if applicable).

So, if you get to reroll 1s, but have -1 to hit from something, you wouldn't reroll 2s. Those would just miss.

This is true, but what Hoboanarki was getting at is that it's possible that Celestine's Beacon of Faith adds 1 to the Invulnerable Save Ability, not adds one to the saving roll made against that ability. It's wording simply states to 'add 1 to their shield of faith invulnerable saves'.

It's unclear whether this is a modifier to the save roll or a buff to the characteristic itself. I can see a case made either way.

I think people are forgetting about that you can put Celestine any place of battlefield if it's 9' from enemy model when she resurrect. Why do you just sit down in same place and wait for second death? Move her to other some safer place. I agree resurrection in my next turn was better than this, but though this have some advantages in flexibility. Not just downward compatibility

PS) I'm glad to tell you that army list builder added us to their list. It's not full list yet, but I think it will be soon. Go and check it if you are interested in.

jim300 wrote:
I think people are forgetting about that you can put Celestine any place of battlefield if it's 9' from enemy model when she resurrect. Why do you just sit down in same place and wait for second death? Move her to other some safer place. I agree resurrection in my next turn was better than this, but though this have some advantages in flexibility. Not just downward compatibility

PS) I'm glad to tell you that army list builder added us to their list. It's not full list yet, but I think it will be soon. Go and check it if you are interested in.

That's only if both geminae are also dead. Picture this: turn 1 they both die and Celestine takes a wound. Turn 2, Celestine now has to take all wounds because she's wounded and they aren't. Celestine now dies, but the enemy doesn't also kill the geminae with the same attack. Celestine immediately gets up in the same place. (And now I realize that there's going to be a lot of situations where the correct AoF to use on her unit is to desperately try to heal her to full so that you can direct wounds away from her again.) This inability to juggle wounds between your models is yet another way her survivability has dropped from the most recent edition. You may be right, that's she's not too expensive, but I'm starting to wonder if the geminae are worth 50 points a pop given their low damage output and potential for getting her permanently killed in the situation I described above.

Mavnas wrote:

jim300 wrote:
I think people are forgetting about that you can put Celestine any place of battlefield if it's 9' from enemy model when she resurrect. Why do you just sit down in same place and wait for second death? Move her to other some safer place. I agree resurrection in my next turn was better than this, but though this have some advantages in flexibility. Not just downward compatibility

PS) I'm glad to tell you that army list builder added us to their list. It's not full list yet, but I think it will be soon. Go and check it if you are interested in.

That's only if both geminae are also dead. Picture this: turn 1 they both die and Celestine takes a wound. Turn 2, Celestine now has to take all wounds because she's wounded and they aren't. Celestine now dies, but the enemy doesn't also kill the geminae with the same attack. Celestine immediately gets up in the same place. (And now I realize that there's going to be a lot of situations where the correct AoF to use on her unit is to desperately try to heal her to full so that you can direct wounds away from her again.) This inability to juggle wounds between your models is yet another way her survivability has dropped from the most recent edition. You may be right, that's she's not too expensive, but I'm starting to wonder if the geminae are worth 50 points a pop given their low damage output and potential for getting her permanently killed in the situation I described above.

Dude, you gotta stop comparing things to 7th. If she had the same level of survivability she had then(i.e. 5 wounds and she never takes more than 1 damage per attack) , she'd be 500 points. And gemini are just as likely to let you get her back up as they are to get her killed. Even if your scenario does happen, you're opponent probably doesn't have enough left in range to actually burn through the gemini (she's full health remember?) And Celestine again, especially when only half of his army should actually be able to shoot at her.

Yeah half, character remember? Charge her up the flanks and use your immo's and dominions to body block for her and you can really limit how much firepower your opponent can bring to bare while she charges/piles in to basically the entire side of the board she's on.

She's not an unkillable supertank but clever, creative use of her will see her even more effective than she was before.

Erjak: Stop making so much sense. You're really disrupting the flow of the argument.

Bit confused here. Celestine's unit are characters. How come she's getting shot by all these lascannons - did somebody forget to bring the holy bubble wrap?

My impression is that she's extremely choppy, but not a particularly great combo with the Geminae. She wants to be cutting tanks up (or maybe terminators); they want to kill MEQs.

It's hard to keep her bubble wrapped and do her job.

 pretre wrote:
It's hard to keep her bubble wrapped and do her job.

Considering how cheap and useful Seraphim are, I disagree completely.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 pretre wrote:
It's hard to keep her bubble wrapped and do her job.

Considering how cheap and useful Seraphim are, I disagree completely.

/shrug

Does anyone else feel like the Retributors are missing something? Dominions lost their nifty AoF ignoring cover, but they're still unique with their not-scout scout move. Rets seem like they need something.

 deviantduck wrote:
Does anyone else feel like the Retributors are missing something? Dominions lost their nifty AoF ignoring cover, but they're still unique with their not-scout scout move. Rets seem like they need something.

I agree. Right now Rets have 'we are cheap and get lots of heavy weapons'.

Well, lots of units have that "generic" feeling. We'll have to wait for our codex to come up (so basically the 9th ed compendium #cry) to get some feeling of uniqueness.

Heck even I lay my eyes on my exorcists, all I can see is a sub-optimal las-predator (aka generic anti-tank tank).

 RabbitMaster wrote:
Well, lots of units have that "generic" feeling. We'll have to wait for our codex to come up (so basically the 9th ed compendium #cry) to get some feeling of uniqueness.

Heck even I lay my eyes on my exorcists, all I can see is a sub-optimal las-predator (aka generic anti-tank tank).

Don't compare an immolator to a twin assault cannon razorback if you don't want to be sad :(

Flame-olator vs assault-back is not that bad of a comparison actually. The higher strength and range of the assault canon is quite compensated by the better maneuverability and auto-hitting property of the immo.

I feel like I should have this sorted out by now... An Immolator with Immolation Flamer is 103 points?

Yep. You add the cost of the naked immolator with whatever weapon you take.

What do you guys think about priest now? It changed its role completely, and I can't figure out it's worth to it take or not.

R E P R E S S O R. Rules now out in Index: Adeptus Astartes.

Holy Emperor, this changes EVERYTHING. Guess I'm going to have to convert a third!! The only reason left to take a Rhino is that it can transport Ministorum infantry and it's marginally cheaper.

But what to fill it with? Dominion obviously, but Meltaguns? Flamers? Storm Bolters?

With the Vanguard move of 12+D6", first turn 12"+D6" you're looking at a threat range from deployment of 38"-48" on 5 -1 to hit Meltagun shots and 34"-44" on 5D6 flamers :O. People are going to hate us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or 10 Melta/Flamer shots if you load 2 Dominion Squads into a single one...

Have the rules been posted somewhere?

Mavnas wrote:
Have the rules been posted somewhere?

A fast google search and you can find all of them, or go to Reddit warhammer 40k, there is a sticky of pics of rules.

Many stores already are giving them out too.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Have the rules been posted somewhere?

A fast google search and you can find all of them, or go to Reddit warhammer 40k, there is a sticky of pics of rules.

Many stores already are giving them out too.

Ah, I meant for the repressor.

edit: nm... found it on 4chan of all places. Also, I am no longer as concerned about Celestine's survivability and much more willing to spam melta again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rubenite wrote:
R E P R E S S O R. Rules now out in Index: Adeptus Astartes.

Holy Emperor, this changes EVERYTHING. Guess I'm going to have to convert a third!! The only reason left to take a Rhino is that it can transport Ministorum infantry and it's marginally cheaper.

But what to fill it with? Dominion obviously, but Meltaguns? Flamers? Storm Bolters?

With the Vanguard move of 12+D6", first turn 12"+D6" you're looking at a threat range from deployment of 38"-48" on 5 -1 to hit Meltagun shots and 34"-44" on 5D6 flamers :O. People are going to hate us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or 10 Melta/Flamer shots if you load 2 Dominion Squads into a single one...

Or two BSS with 3 SB each for 32 shots (including 2 SB from the vehicle) for pretty decent anti-horde/troop tax payment.

Repressor:


Still an incredibly good model and at 5 power points I expect point costs to be around what Immolators are right now.

It's going to be hard chosing between transports for dominions now

It's a (probably cheaper) mobile imperial bunker that only loses -1T and some fire points. The ability to place itself in inconvenient locations where your enemy feels compelled to shoot his anti-tank guns at it should also provide protection for your exorcists.

While a rhino can perform a similar role, the opponent can mostly wait until a squad gets out of it and then murder the squad.

well the point costs are reallly good.

71 points base. Stormbolter is 2 somehow instead of 4. Heavy flamer 17
So a total of 90 points for a very solid bunker and you could buy him a second heavy flamer to make charging it dangerous.



https://postimg.org/image/6vuceahub/

Now the only question is how to get one since they don't seem to be selling them atm :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voldrak wrote:
well the point costs are reallly good.

71 points base. Stormbolter is 2 somehow instead of 4. Heavy flamer 17
So a total of 90 points for a very solid bunker and you could buy him a second heavy flamer to make charging it dangerous.



https://postimg.org/image/6vuceahub/

I think the SB is that cheap because they're that cheap for other armies or at least inquisition and SM... and I have no idea why SM pay less for any particular weapon than we do.

Wow, that's really good.

Now, how am I going to get them...