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I'm not talking about the level or nerdiness or geekiness or whatever. No one cares about that stuff anymore.

I mean things like bad business practices (even from the big guys), shady dealings, scams and dodgy commissions, theft and stolen armies seems to be pretty common these days. Its not hard to find examples of these online. Then you got stories of A-hole gamers, mean GW/FLGS employees (lol), etc. And then there's also the kickstarter. Everyone's doing it these days and delays and mismanagement seem to be pretty common...

I'm only getting back into this hobby after like a decade and I don't remember it being this bad. Or maybe it's because the internet wasn't as big back then. I know its partly because the bad stuff gets reported more often but it seems like the wargaming industry has exploded quite a bit and a lot more problems have appeared along with it. What do you guys think?

*I don't mean to be so negative. There's a lot of cool people out there too

Nah, it's just a few bad apples spoiling an otherwise excellent community.

And yeah, nerdiness has become pretty hip and trendy lately. Not that I'm complaining.

~Tim?

I think it is a case of the net making it easier both for dodgy dealing at a distance and also for those who have encountered such being able to report it to other gamers more easily.

Unfortunately at the same time you get the 'nay-sayers' as well of course, they come out with things like 'it smells fishy to me', or 'no way is this above board', etc. Of course these people statistically hit a home run every now and then (and then normally let everyone know how brilliant they are - forgetting to mention how often they are wrong and I have yet to see an apology from one to someone or some company canned by them), but they add to and breed a general disquiet that is neither warranted or justified, but what it does do is increase the perceived level of a bad image for the industry and gamers as a whole.

Generally therefore I do not think the 'bad rep' is justified any more than in any other hobby, pastime, or even business. Just always do reasonable checks first, remember there is a reason why some Latin is still used today. 'Caveat emptor.'

It's not wargaming. It's humanity. Ask an anime figure collector how many hoops need to jumped through to dodge bootlegs. Ask a cyclist about fake parts. For any niche hobby that involves higher priced products and many manufacturers, there will be someone ready to take advantage of the expected high pricetag and decentralized nature. In addition, there are always aholes involved. Even charities have entitled jerks in them.

There's nothing bad about the wargaming community that doesn't exist in similar quantities anywhere else.

I think it's going to be the same across most hobbies. Every hobby is online now and most have a cottage industry of folks carving out little niches as retailers, builders, etc. Likewise, every hobby is going to have it's share of bad apples. The internet makes it easier to be a bad apple to more people, and makes it easier for folks to spread the news.

Of course even before the internet there may have been fewer bad apples, but I doubt it was a higher percentage.

The jerks and donkey-caves in any area cast an unfortunately long shadow, which gets frustrating, and can skew perceptions. People don't go onto the internet and post "Man, today someone was really nice to me!" or "That guy I played last night had a really good attitude!", do they? And yet think back over your own experience--how many people you've played were that bad compared to the ones who were good or simply unremarkable either way?

All most of us can do is simply be part of the solution--be aware of when we're lapsing into unpleasant behaviour and if we see it from someone else being unpleasant, call them on it instead of looking the other way.

ww wrote:
seems to be pretty common these days

That's your problem right there.

People have been stealing other player's Magic cards pretty much since day one. Every gaming group is probably going to have someone who lent books out to a friend and never saw them again.

Now lets go on to loaning yard tools or workshop items to neighbors and having them vanish off the face of the earth.

I wouldn't say the wargaming community has a bad rep. I'd say that the wargaming community doesn't have a rep.

Depends on your area I guess. My area depends on day. We all have the rude people but my area also has some real weird one's. Not that I would say anything. I still think one or two might be alien's

I spent the entire ride home explaining to my kids the difference between the guy wearing a kilt and the next guy over dressed up like lulu from FF10. Ya try getting a 5 year old not to draw attention with that, good luck.

one's a cultural thing we don't see very often (almost never) which is cool. The other ? Not sure hoe to explain that one. I just toldem not to stair, point or draw attention.

Well it's good you guys are pretty positive still

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: And yeah, nerdiness has become pretty hip and trendy lately. Not that I'm complaining.

lol. chicks dig it! amirite

CBRFigs wrote:Just always do reasonable checks first, remember there is a reason why some Latin is still used today. 'Caveat emptor.'

Words of wisdom my friend. I'm pretty wary of buying online and always do my checks first. Can never be too careful.

GreyHamster wrote:It's not wargaming. It's humanity.

lol aw man. In a way.. that's kind of more depressing :(

Eilif wrote:The internet makes it easier to be a bad apple to more people, and makes it easier for folks to spread the news.

Mm true. Silver lining i guess; makes it easier to raise awareness.

Elemental wrote:People don't go onto the internet and post "Man, today someone was really nice to me!" or "That guy I played last night had a really good attitude!", do they?

Hey man. I totally would. But I don't want to turn this place into my livejournal.

Elemental wrote:All most of us can do is simply be part of the solution--be aware of when we're lapsing into unpleasant behaviour and if we see it from someone else being unpleasant, call them on it instead of looking the other way.

Yeah. Most people just aren't aware that they're being gakky I think. But then usually their friends are too nice to call them out.

H.B.M.C. wrote: I'd say that the wargaming community doesn't have a rep.

:(

wowsmash wrote:Depends on your area I guess. My area depends on day. We all have the rude people but my area also has some real weird one's. Not that I would say anything. I still think one or two might be alien's

Watch out man, they're on to you.

Your area sounds... interesting... lol

Ya that was the day I finally convinced my wife it was ok to come into the store and not wait in the car. That way I can browse without feeling rushed. Epic face palm as soon as I saw that guy. Now she wont come in again.

Negative gets more publicity and attention then positive does.

On the whole, there is a couple of factors there, not the least is that of "Gamers trying to run a business...", and the standards and practice that some of the .... not so above board business owners out there actually think that Business laws don't apply to them.

Best thing about it is that the market generally polices its own. You either make money or you disappear. Word of mouth is actually what does the job.

Scumbags pretty much have to work the system harder then those that stick to a work ethic and do a good job. Of course we have some parasites out there, but the old saying holds true- every dog has his day.

Not just wargaming you get idiots in all hobbies.

I have seen people attend paintball festivals just to break into peoples tents and steal their markers. I have seen people turn up at car events just to steal car parts or even cars.

I am sure other hobbies also get their fair share of gits.

 wowsmash wrote:
Depends on your area I guess. My area depends on day. We all have the rude people but my area also has some real weird one's. Not that I would say anything. I still think one or two might be alien's

I spent the entire ride home explaining to my kids the difference between the guy wearing a kilt and the next guy over dressed up like lulu from FF10. Ya try getting a 5 year old not to draw attention with that, good luck.

one's a cultural thing we don't see very often (almost never) which is cool. The other ? Not sure hoe to explain that one. I just toldem not to stair, point or draw attention.

crossplay is actuly fairly normal in cosplay, girls do it all the time :0. It's just N expression of someone's like for a charecter.
It's not realy that weird unless you make it weird :p
With the gaming community having a bad rep, I think all subcultures have bad reps in some way, with people who are not within and fully within a community not understanding it.
I think every year a t least there is a unwelcome sexual comment made towards me in this community, but I find that from within the community it's just people that do it in any community.

In my personal experience Sci-fi/Fantsey Wargameing is very welcoming to new players, and want to activly introduce the "normies" to their hobby. You have the bad apples, but the larger the gameing community, the more they tend to try and "protect" people from thows bad elements.

In contrast I've found TCG and Historical gaming communities can be fairly elitist.

If one of the core members in the historical group doesn't like someone, that person tends to get boycotted from the group. This is probably due to most historical gaming being contained to small groups. I have felt like I just entered a high-school click everytime I have every tried interact in anyway with historical gamers both in face to face, and even online.

As for TCG communites, despite being the largest group of nerd gamers, they have a nasty habit of tolerating alot of rudeness and bad habits that alienate them from the "normies". You realy need someone with a strong personality in their communities to help be a moral compass to curtail thows tendencies.

RPG players are the biggest mixed bag, and run the gambit from super lay back cool guys, to some of the most elitist and douchbag gamers i have ever met. Every RPG group has it's own dynamics and attitudes.

I think there is a certain presupposition of unprofessionalism, mismanagement and lackluster commitment to detail, yes.

I think there's too many wargames suppliers that are businesses run as hobbies, rather than businesses run by hobbyists, and too many customers who treat them like fellow hobbyists and cut them too much slack.

I don't know if that also explains the inexcusable performance of too many online shops or if that sort of woeful service is common in other online discount sectors.

The attitude of historical gamers can, I think, be explained by the fact that most of them got into historical gaming with a prior interestin history; They'll look down on new gamers asking daft questions or displaying their ignorance because they already knew that sort of stuff before getting into gaming. knowing the correct facing colours for the 87th Highlanders at Waterloo - or even knowing how the battle of Waterloo went isn't the sort of thing you should be picking up after starting gaming, in their eyes. If you know the history but don't know anything about gaming, you'll probably get a better reception.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I think there's too many wargames suppliers that are businesses run as hobbies, rather than businesses run by hobbyists, and too many customers who treat them like fellow hobbyists and cut them too much slack.

It's kind of a double edged sword. There are alot of miniatures out there that either wouldn't be created or wouldn't be reissued if not for small mom and pop hobbyist businesses, many of whom are run by folks who have other jobs and this is just an extension of their hobby.

Not that it is an excuse for poor service, but it almost is. folks in the wargames hobby (mostly outside the GW/PP realm) have learned to expect long wait times and delays in exchange for a product that fills a particular niche.

I don't have anything against small or one-man businesses. I'm a huge fan of Kev White's Hasslefree. I do have an issue with the ones who get orders wrong, run off with my money or simply don't reply to emails

Not quite sure if this is on topic, but it seems to me that online Wargame retailers are normally going to be judged on how well they sell GW.

Meh, the wargaming community is no worse than any other in my experience. Although the echo chamber of the internet does annoy me sometimes with the constant "GW is DOOOOOMED!", even though I know there's only a small fraction of people who keep saying it.

Photographers are the worst. Not wargamers.

 sing your life wrote:
Not quite sure if this is on topic, but it seems to me that online Wargame retailers are normally going to be judged on how well they sell GW.

In my experience, most are judged on how badly they fail to live up to their delivery promises.

AndrewGPaul wrote:I think there's too many wargames suppliers that are businesses run as hobbies, rather than businesses run by hobbyists, and too many customers who treat them like fellow hobbyists and cut them too much slack.

totally agree. I have nothing against them but i do doubt their skills in handling a business. Their enthusiasm is great but it takes more than that.

fishy bob wrote:Photographers are the worst. Not wargamers.

well I didn't say wargamers are the worst...

but what's wrong with photographers? Are you a photographer?

In all fairness regarding the deluge of scams, it seems like the overwhelming majority of they are controlled by a single dude.

Actually the geekiness and nerdiness goes beyond the pale, into the pure social and hygienically challenged.

For example, at the TO level in my local area (this isn't even talking about the players) a local TO in my area is married to a woman with a beard. The other TO smells bad and is socially
challenged.

So yeah, it has a bad rap. I wouldn't take any of my normal friends within a mile of a 40K game night or tournament event.

CBRFigs wrote:
I think it is a case of the net making it easier both for dodgy dealing at a distance and also for those who have encountered such being able to report it to other gamers more easily.

Unfortunately at the same time you get the 'nay-sayers' as well of course, they come out with things like 'it smells fishy to me', or 'no way is this above board', etc. Of course these people statistically hit a home run every now and then (and then normally let everyone know how brilliant they are - forgetting to mention how often they are wrong and I have yet to see an apology from one to someone or some company canned by them), but they add to and breed a general disquiet that is neither warranted or justified, but what it does do is increase the perceived level of a bad image for the industry and gamers as a whole.

Actually Bill, if you hadn't been such an unpleasant and insulting poster about the whole thing, I would have said something of the sort. I've both admitted when I'm wrong and apologised for things many times on these forums - but only when posters reply in a civil manner and don't make a bunch of ad hominem attacks. It took Orlando and JudgeDoug (I believe) to reply in a civil manner, and in the end I even backed the Winter War project to the tune of 120GPB. This was despite your posting though, rather than in any way because of it. As it is, I'd probably like to meet you in person to thrash out our differences in an enjoyably pleasant manner.


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 Elemental wrote:
The jerks and donkey-caves in any area cast an unfortunately long shadow, which gets frustrating, and can skew perceptions. People don't go onto the internet and post "Man, today someone was really nice to me!" or "That guy I played last night had a really good attitude!", do they?

From time to time they do. There are also quite a few positive posts about various retailers and manufacturers out here, there and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eilif wrote:
I think it's going to be the same across most hobbies. Every hobby is online now and most have a cottage industry of folks carving out little niches as retailers, builders, etc. Likewise, every hobby is going to have it's share of bad apples. The internet makes it easier to be a bad apple to more people, and makes it easier for folks to spread the news.

Of course even before the internet there may have been fewer bad apples, but I doubt it was a higher percentage.

You're completely right, of course.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wouldn't say the wargaming community has a bad rep. I'd say that the wargaming community doesn't have a rep.

It's an internal rep really. Or maybe one amongst the "geek-end" of hobbies. Like most niche hobbies, the majority of the world has little to no idea about them or even that they exist. Then again, Wargamers certainly seem to have opinions on Card Gamers, Roleplayers and LARPers, and vice versa...

 fishy bob wrote:
Photographers are the worst. Not wargamers.

I'm a photographer as well as a wargamer. Can I redeem my reputation by the fact I am also an oarsman?

The wargaming community touched me in my bad spots and I've never been the same since. Bad wargaming community! Bad!


I've seen lots of good honest gamers and I've seen lot of cheats and theives. Having run dozens of upper level card game events for both WOTC and AEG I've seen people attempt just about form of cheating there is. I've seen people steal backpacks and binders full of cards more times than I can count. First hand I had somebody at gen con try and nab one of my backpacks, which resulted in him getting pinned to the floor until the cops arrived to arrest him. A small minority can make everyone else's experiences a lot less fun.

You also have the guys who don't do anything illegal per say but they don't understand concepts of ettiquette and sportsmanship. You get guys who are super annoying, over competitive to the extreme, or just completely weird even by nerd standards.

Fortunately however the majority of gamers are good people and if you can manage to look past the bad apples gamers can be a really great group as a whole.

Just be on guard because while you may know your friends you can't say the same for the random dude walking by the event. Some people just can't resist being greedy or decietful when presented with an opportunity. You wouldn't leave your wallet full of money just sitting out in a crowded room, the same should go for your gaming stuff as it's usually worth more than the amount of cash you carry on you. Most of the time the victims of gaming theft either leave their stuff unattended or are so engrosses in the game they have no perception of what is going around them.

The gaming community reflects the same morals of people in general, just because we're geeks and nerds doesn't change anything. Maybe we like to think we're above that stuff but as a whole we aren't any better than the rest of society and have all the same faults.

The gaming community is very fragmented. And each fragment is often trying to cast stones at the other fragments. Historicals vs. fantasy vs. card player vs. larpers vs. whatever. I was pretty opinionated at times in my life so can claim guilt here as well. Right now I simply respect whatever anyone is doing as a hobby that they are passionate about and enjoying. As for the rep of the community, it seems to be mostly in fighting amongst players while the larger world does not even know we exist.