Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Been watching The Pacific. Very disturbing show with some rather horrifying examples of PTSD. It got me wondering how the Imperium might handle trooper breakdowns in the Imperial Guard.

My leading idea is indoctrination and mind wiping broken troopers. Duty to the Guard is for life on most planets, and barely any will ever set foot on their homeworld again. You can't just ship off wounded soldiers back home with a purple heart saying they've done their duty. In the IG, you get patched up and thrown back in again. This sort of system would absolutely crush a person's sanity over time. And since the Imperium is established as using up a person until they're dry, I'd assume that PTSD is dealt with by using re-education camps or mind wipes on the soldier in question.

The answer to a trooper breaking down is a Commissar with a Bolt Pistol leveled at his head.

Mind-wiping would probably be the safest and most successful way to handle veteran guardsmen, but that's obviously not Grimdark enough. It also seems like that's a somewhat expensive/time-consuming process, and if the guard is going to arm their soldiers with flashlights and cardboard boxes when they are actually serving duties, they certainly arent going to spend more money on troops that arent serving anymore.

If you've read the Eisenhorn series (Highly HIGHLY recommended), they do pretty much what you just described as how NOT to treat PTSD veterans. There are two instances in the series that show how retired veterans of the imperial guard are handled. In one case, they were dumped back onto their home planet, PTSD and all, and they started ritually murdering people because they thought they we're still waging war against the forces of chaos, at which point the planetary defense force was called in to execute the lot of them (losing a lot of PDF forces in the process i might add). The second example is the Cadian military prison (the carnficina), where they house traitors, the insane, the mentally scarred, etc, and its pretty much the worst prison imaginable. Its carved into an ice shelf on the north pole, prisoners are given barely any food or clothing, and if you happen to die in one of the cells, they don't even remove your body, your bones just lay there until the next prisoner comes in and pushes them into a corner or whatever.

In my mind there's two options:

1) The people of the Imperium grow up in an environment much less civil and comfortable than ours and are thus already "hardened"
2) Similar to real world militaries until very recently, the Departmento Munitorum doesn't give a grox' ass about PTSD and just keeps its troopers in service until they expire one way or another - this would fit to the whole "people = numbers" deal that is an important element of 40k

Whilst memory wipes would be an option, I think this sort of process is too time-consuming and/or too sophisticated to be "wasted" on normal soldiers. If the Imperium prefers executing grunts and only affording mind-wipes to more elite forces, why should it be different for PTSD?
Likewise, I don't really buy the prison idea, as this would indicate that individual Guard vets actually get sent back home on conclusion of their duty, which - given the complexity of space travel - just seems like a waste of resources for an empire that has no problem with sending infantry over minefields ("we're sending you home, just wait a bit until we get this huge 1km long cruiser to pick you up, the trip will take about a year"), and would contradict Codex fluff about retirement on some frontier world. Cadia could work as an exception, though, as the Shock Troops routinely rotate into and out of the Interior Guard.

That being said, I could see the Imperium also employing drugs to help deal with the stress. Drugs and faith, as every single regiment has at least one Confessor attached to deal for the soldiers' spiritual welfare.

Obviously, that's just my interpretation of the studio material, though. In the end, there's gotta be dozens of equally valid theories regarding this topic.

PTSD, shell shock, battle fatigue, hell, jsut turning pale or feeling sick in your stomach are all clear signs of cowardness according t the Uplifting primer, which must be reported to your local Commissar for summary execution.

Penal Legion would be for those still able to fight and being able to be shipped to a Penal Legion (like not during a combat engagement)

Mindwipe would be when the Inquisition orders it, and only for specific cases rather than the general rule.

So you got problems, chances are you'll get a bolt aspirin.

Mind Wipes wouldn't be an option unless the soldier in question was too valuable to lose. So really only a very high ranking human or a space marine would be mind wiped, everybody else is expendable. Which means its a lasbolt to the cranium for that individual.

They'd get a little extra head ventilation courtesy of the Commissar I'd imagine.

They might reeducate or mind-wipe an IG member, if he was important enough.

Excellent Company Commander gets a bit nervous on it? If the Commissar isn't in a bad mood, they might try for some therapy.

Guardsman 35442HS from the southern end of the line starts losing his marbles? A round to the head is cheap and easy.

PTSD in guardsman have the same treatment as a fat unfit guardsman. they become surprisingly effective as mobile sandbags

No shell shock in 40K: guardsmen don't live long enough to get it.

Another option is servitorisation - slightly more efficient than the bolt-to-brain solution, seeing as you get a new slave out of it.

Two things I think would effect it.

1) As far as I can tell the guard are not like the army IRL. That is the PDF. It is a full life commitment in most cases, and one taken only by those who know they may never see there home again, or at best not for many many years. They are also elite troops. I suspect they will be mentally quite strong. Not immune, but more able and ready to handle the horrors of war.

2) Given that medical tech is far advanced to current day I would imagine that there may be a simple treatment or preventative action against most mental health problems. There may be some who are so scared, but all but the worst cases may be easy to treat. The Ad mech can literally replace chunks of people brains. Curring PTSD would probably be simple. I don't see how it would not be the case, otherwise you would be loosing masses of troops every time you met nids or dark eldar and whilst I know the IoM dose not care about a single trooper, in large numbers the represent a significant input of time and resources.

Going solely by Codex fluff, Guard regiments can include anything and everyone - sometimes they are the elite of the PDF, selected in arduous trials, sending highly trained warriors who are proud of their nomination. Other times, it's hive gangs conscripted into military service. Yet other times it's a bunch of farmers rounded up, given guns, and thrown into battle after a month of training. There's a reason the size of infantry regiments can range from as few as 3.000 to several tens of thousands of troopers, yet still having the same "battle value"...

It is true, however, that they are all aware that they are never going to see their homeworld again. Like the Roman Legions of old, service in the Guard seems to be a tour of duty several decades long. Regiments that actually survive long enough rather than being destroyed are granted the right to settle down on a newly conquered world, again a bit like the Roman Legionaries being granted a parchment of land in the Empire's colonies. I'm sure GW took a page from Rome here. Unlike with the Romans, however, actually getting home again upon honourable discharge seems to be quite a bit trickier, as interstellar travel in 40k isn't readily available. Maybe a soldier is in luck and able to earn a trip on some commercial chartist ship, though, provided his homeworld is connected to a steady trade route.

Steve steveson wrote:Given that medical tech is far advanced to current day I would imagine that there may be a simple treatment or preventative action against most mental health problems. There may be some who are so scared, but all but the worst cases may be easy to treat. The Ad mech can literally replace chunks of people brains.

Maybe in some cases - the sort of trooper who would be eligible for cybernetic replacements, like Cadians? Often enough, the regular grunt doesn't seem to be held in high enough regard to actually "waste" high tech on them ...

But perhaps they just put something into people's food? Over the past decades, a lot of militiaries have experimented with various drugs and the effects they would have on the soldiers. Perhaps the Imperium has a pill that lowers the responsiveness of a soldier to mental stress.


Also, I totally forgot about the Penal Legions! Good call.

Another thought that just occurred to me was that the Departmento Munitorum may keep a people's natural predisposition in mind when assigning them to campaigns, much like they are looking at travel distances or the strategic situation.
It's not like they have a shortage of psychos like the Savlar Chem-Dogs.

 Lynata wrote:
Maybe in some cases - the sort of trooper who would be eligible for cybernetic replacements, like Cadians? Often enough, the regular grunt doesn't seem to be held in high enough regard to actually "waste" high tech on them ...

I don't mean so much high tech cybernetic replacements as advancements in basic medicine

"Suffered horrific mental scaring at the hands of the enemy?
Tempted to kill your friends and family in there sleep for fear that they are geansteelers?
Suffering from flashbacks of your buddy's head exploding in a volley of xeno fire?
Be back and fighting for the light and truth of the glorious Emperor with a one week course of now improved Mentalscrub!
The only pill guaranteed to wipe out the horrors of war! Ask for it by name at your platoon medicanam today!"

 Steve steveson wrote:
Two things I think would effect it.

1) As far as I can tell the guard are not like the army IRL. That is the PDF. It is a full life commitment in most cases, and one taken only by those who know they may never see there home again, or at best not for many many years. They are also elite troops. I suspect they will be mentally quite strong. Not immune, but more able and ready to handle the horrors of war.

I don't see how it would not be the case, otherwise you would be loosing masses of troops every time you met nids or dark eldar and whilst I know the IoM dose not care about a single trooper, in large numbers the represent a significant input of time and resources.

The Guard aren't an elite force, they are selected from the PDF as sent off the planet to fight as part of a planet's tithe to the Emperor.

Loosing masses of troops in normal for the Guard, the first weeks of Hive fleet Kraken's invasion killed billions of Guard. I once read (prievious 40K rulebook) that an Imperial Guard force march lost over 70.000 men. This was stated as 'light casualties'. The same info also referred to whole regiments of Guard being used to for the purpose of dying slowly enough to hold up the enemy, victory was not expected in those plans only all the Guard in question dying.

When it come to PTSD the Imperium is likely aware of it or has inherited military dogma that is aware of it. Rotating Guard out of combat to avoid it is likely policy. But only if it is useful. The welfare of the soldiers will not be the Imperium's concern, only victory. If giving the boys a break and having others do the fighting for a while will happen if it's possible or useful. Letting them all go insane in the fires of war for years is possible too, if it's useful.

One thing to note is the Imperium is being attacked by very nasty enemies. Sending them home may not be an option when troops run low, when home is consumed by a Tyranid swarm, or if they all die, command, conscripts, the lot.

 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
Another option is servitorisation - slightly more efficient than the bolt-to-brain solution, seeing as you get a new slave out of it.

This actually makes sense, why waste a relatively good trooper (and more importantly a bolt round) by offing him when you can lobotomise him and keep him working longer and harder than before.

I kinda had the same idea as Lynata...
If there is constant hardship and warfare then most people in the 40kverse aren't going to have the same kind of reaction we would...

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Maybe in some cases - the sort of trooper who would be eligible for cybernetic replacements, like Cadians? Often enough, the regular grunt doesn't seem to be held in high enough regard to actually "waste" high tech on them ...

I don't mean so much high tech cybernetic replacements as advancements in basic medicine

"Suffered horrific mental scaring at the hands of the enemy?
Tempted to kill your friends and family in there sleep for fear that they are geansteelers?
Suffering from flashbacks of your buddy's head exploding in a volley of xeno fire?
Be back and fighting for the light and truth of the glorious Emperor with a one week course of now improved Mentalscrub!
The only pill guaranteed to wipe out the horrors of war! Ask for it by name at your platoon medicanam today!"

The AdMech wouldn't advertise something like that. Most planets in the Imperium seem to be capitalistic, so no socialized healthcare in the Hives (unlike, say, London). There's also the fact that sending a soldier off for a week for such a course is... prohibitively expensive. Unless the AdMech sends Magos Psychologis along with the baggage of the IG. Which they don't. A lasround is, effectively, free, and there's *always* more soldiers.

Penal Legions, as mentioned up-thread, are not designed to be something you survive. You get fitted with an explosive collar and thrown face-first into the enemy guns. If you make it to the enemy, and kill a bunch of them, and if your explosive collar does not detonate, and you survive the battle/campaign/whatever... the the Emperor has forgiven you, and you get to go free. That is, back to an IG Regiment. Most Penal Legionnaires don't survive the first contact with the enemy, and of those that do, the majority of them die when the explosive collar goes off.

Psienesis wrote:The AdMech wouldn't advertise something like that. Most planets in the Imperium seem to be capitalistic, so no socialized healthcare in the Hives (unlike, say, London).

I think he didn't mean that literally - just that the Biologis division would have come up with some drug that lets you forget your troubles (perhaps with other long-term results that nobody cares about, a bit like what they did to some soldiers in WW2 and Vietnam).

Wardragoon wrote:This actually makes sense, why waste a relatively good trooper (and more importantly a bolt round) by offing him when you can lobotomise him and keep him working longer and harder than before.

Because for this they'd have to send him back to some Forge World, and here I agree with Psienesis that the Imperium would, at some point, just say "too much trouble". There's likely enough people for servitor production in areas that are easier to access - where the Navy wouldn't need to send a special 1km-long transport for a 2-month-journey through the Warp just to pick up one or even a dozen dudes.

If the AdMech needs Servitors and they don't want to tap their own Forge World's production, I have a feeling some Hive World is gonna see a couple thousand people from the Underhives being rounded up by local Enforcers and herded into a bulk freighter. Just like the Navy is using press gangs to randomly recruit crew replacements from whatever world the ship comes across ("Hey, you there! Yes, you! Welcome to the Navy!" *baton on head*).

The Imperium thrives on simplicity.

Due to the fact that the Imperium fights wars in a WW1 style with futuristic weaponry. I imagine that the best way to treat PTSD is with a bullet to the back of the head.

 purplefood wrote:
I kinda had the same idea as Lynata...
If there is constant hardship and warfare then most people in the 40kverse aren't going to have the same kind of reaction we would...

Except that we're also told that the vast majority of the Imperium's citizenry is kept in forced ignorance by downplaying the effects of Chaos and Xenos. The only ones exposed to constant combat are the troops shipped offworld, while the rest of the population lives in blind ignorance. Struggling to live in a Hive City is rough, but it isn't the same kind of stress that a soldier would go through.

Arcsquad12 wrote:Struggling to live in a Hive City is rough, but it isn't the same kind of stress that a soldier would go through.

I dunno about that ...

"In the hab-complexes of the civilised worlds, the shuffle of sore-ravaged feet and the scratch of thermoquil upon vellum is punctuated by the thunder of distant war. Hunchbacked factotums and aged lickspittles slave endlessly under the unforgiving vigilance of Judicar-Prelates and Titheproctor Superians. Only a few hours' sleep is permitted each night, and even that is plagued by the grind of constant industry, for the incessant wars of the Imperium demand a heavy price. Drooling Ideosavants trade gibberish with Pendanticum, Dataslave and Stasis Clerk in a babel tongue which none truly understand. Even death is no escape; the remains of the faithful are reincarnated as servo-skulls so that they might serve the Imperium for eternity.

In the streets outside the hab-blocks and manufactorums, the Arbitrators enforce their unforgiving rule upon the desperate and the homeless. Feral children fight over the dead flesh of the fallen, their struggles lit only by flickering luminas set into crumbling masonry. Scapegoats, lepers, and pilgrims press and push in great queues that will last a lifetime, desperate in their quests for absolution they will never receive. Through this sickly gruel of flesh stride the privileged few, untouched by disease or the ravages of acidic rain. It is they who maintain the status quo for their own hidden ends, they who guide humanity itself. Some are pure of intent, some embody the corruption at the heart of the Imperium, but one thing is true for all - they care not for the fate of the common man."
- 5E rulebook

I imagine for some people, life in the Imperial Guard is an improvement over what they had to deal with at home. Besides Lynata's description, there's also people from Catachan or many other feral worlds who are either right at home or even dissappointed in how lame it is sometimes. Likely the Imperium could/does hold a voluntary draft on these worlds and there's no end to the supply of volunteers.

TiamatRoar wrote:there's also people from Catachan or many other feral worlds who are either right at home or even dissappointed in how lame it is sometimes

This part made me remember a funny picture.

Shot for cowardice, chances are the guardsmen would not live long enough to get PTSD.

On a serious note, I couldn't say, perhaps the Imperium simply has the man power to not concern themselves with it, but I imagine any troops who have witnessed daemons or anything chaosy then mind wiping would be likely used, or a bolt pistol to the face.

Not every world in the imperium is a dystopian nightmare, so some treat there ptsd people well others not at all

 Psienesis wrote:

The AdMech wouldn't advertise something like that. Most planets in the Imperium seem to be capitalistic, so no socialized healthcare in the Hives (unlike, say, London).

Thats not what I meant, but anyway, there is no reason there would not be social medicine on some planets. Also, we are not talking about the hives. We are talking about in the guard, unless you are suggesting the IG don't bother to treat troops who are injured.

 Psienesis wrote:

There's also the fact that sending a soldier off for a week for such a course is... prohibitively expensive. Unless the AdMech sends Magos Psychologis along with the baggage of the IG. Which they don't. A lasround is, effectively, free, and there's *always* more soldiers.

How do you know they don't? Or that guard forces do not have medical facilities?

A lasround may be free, and bodies may be free, but recruitment, training and transport is most definitely not. I think people read far too much in to the idea that the IG do not care about troops and see them as worthless. The administratum may well see a troop as no more value than the cost invested in them, but they also know exactly how fast that adds up. They may not see the value in a life as we do, but they will see that it costs X amount to train a squad and Y amount to transport them to the warzone and Z amount to feed them in that time etc. and everyone who becomes unfit for combat is the loss of that value. It's not a matter of not caring, but an adherence to cold hard maths. A trooper not able to fight is one trooper less on the line. Yes, some regiments may just tell them which way to point the gun, but even the most basic legions may spend weeks or months transporting a force to a warzone, which represents a significant investment in food, navy time, etc, and this is amusing the guard in question dose not have special skills like being a medic or heavy weapons training.

If there is a simple treatment, which there may well be, combined with talking to your Chaplin and uplifting primers from your Commissar, then I can't see that they would go "feth it. Shoot them in the head". Some may, just the same as some commissars shoot troops for cowardice, but I don't believe either is the norm. Given that we have come a long way in treatment of mental health in the last 50 years I can't see that it would be unreasonable that there would be a treatment that is a simple course of medication and basic moral support, which we know is provided.

I agree with Steve. Numbers may matter in a a battle, but in a war, the numbers are only there if you maintain them. Tossing troops aside when they break, or even tossing them in hopes of draining enemy ammunition is a a good way to lose your numbers advantage fast. And in war, fielding a larger force than the enemy is one of the great advantages you want.

Plus, the Imperium is unimaginably large. The cost of defense and military in U.S., Russia, India, and China combined is a cost laughable compared to what the Imperium can muster. Having medicine and anything useful that can keep the soldiers running back for more is more advantageous compared to the cost of not having it. Soldier gets shot in the heart, he gets a mechanical one put in, or has his entire chest replaced, and hes patched with drugs to get him up and fighting capable, maybe get some artificial blood transfusion, then he gets sent back into the fight maybe 15 minutes from when he was brought in unconscious.

Treating PTSD is probably a breeze for the Imperial Guard