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You're free to not agree with the studio "canon", but arguing from the opposite side, or trying to argue the validity of it is... pointless, really. It's the information the studio provides, we go with it. There's plenty of stuff from the studio I don't particularly like, but since that's the canon, it's the canon. While I personally think the Space Wolves would have been declared Excommunicatus Traitorus after the First War of Armageddon, they weren't, so there it goes. They're still around.
I'm saying I'm NOT arguing with the validity of it. The studio says it's canon, I agree the studio says it's canon, I agree it's canon, but that doesn't change the fact that I think that it's unrealistic (assuming it's meant to be "realistic". Again, all bets are off if a supernatural power is involved). And I only had to bring this up because you're the one thinking I'm arguing about the validity/canonicity of it, when I'm not.
As they say in the setting: It is better that a thousand innocents should die than to let one guilty walk free.
... they also say that "innocence proves nothing", and that "a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty!".
The sneakiness of Chaos also *really* depends on who's writing it. Sometimes it's insidious, some times it's just mustache-twirling.
There is also the possibility that, no, there *aren't* a lot of "false positives". There is heresy, and there is not. The Sisters, and the Inquisition, may have a defined line drawn, that if you do something over on this side, you're not a heretic (but we *will* be watching) but if you do anything from this list over on this side of the line, we burn you to ash in a plasma reactor and then shoot your ashes into a star.
The Sisters have the ability to perform Genetic Purity tests and such, and determine if someone is genetically mutated or cross-bred with certain Xenos. It is possible that the effects of Chaos Corruption leave other markers within a subject that can be tested for, such as motes of Warp energy in the bloodstream or runic marks on certain cell-bodies. We're simply not provided with the details.
And, yes, Chaos *can* be low-key... to a point. There comes a point, however, where it can no longer be low-key or it's not doing anything of any value. However, this kind of corruption is best in places where it can remain low-key.
The Sisters live amongst themselves in their priories and convents. They do not move amongst the population of the Imperium on a regular basis in most cases (some variance exists, based on the Order). They live lives of prayer, deprivation, self-inflicted suffering, harsh discipline and training. These tiny foot-holds of Chaos, these seeds keeping a low-key are... pretty quickly stamped out. These seeds find no fertile ground in which to grow.
The point is that if the sisters are really THAT stringent and willing to purge their own at the mere hint of chaos, there's a surprisingly very little fluff of them purging their ranks.
But again, that's probably explained by the fact that there's very little fluff at all about sisters in the first place.
As an aside, I don't recall Repentia fluff ever mentioning chaos as a reason sisters become Repentia. It's usually due to "sins" or something else like that, which might include Chaos but is never explicitly stated (and I think they'd probably get purged instead of becoming Repentia in that case, anyways. Again the point being we have no fluff saying either way)
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
TiamatRoar wrote: The point is that if the sisters are really THAT stringent and willing to purge their own at the mere hint of chaos, there's a surprisingly very little fluff of them purging their ranks.
That would be because they are extremely resistant to Chaotic influence. They haven't needed to do it because it doesn't really occur.
But yes, if one were to show signs of Chaotic taint, purging would be swift.
Psienesis wrote: Actually, they didn't get large until this most recent e-Codex.
After some discussion in another thread, it seems that nothing was actually retconned, just fleshed out. The WD codex actually only said that 100 was the minimum size of a Minor Order, and said nothing about their maximum size. The e-Codex just clarified that 1000 is the maximum size.
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Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
TiamatRoar wrote: The main problem is GW keeps on jumping back and forth on how many sisters there are.
They don't. As far as I'm aware, GW has always told us the average numbers of the Major Orders, and said that Minor Orders are an unknown quantity. It's non-studio stuff, like Soulstorm, where we see different numbers. Soulstorm, for example, had "millions" (it might've just been a million) of Sisters coming to a world to pray.
Ah, so it's other sources screwing it up.
It becomes more believable as the number of sisters decrease. It's the idea that the Imperium could somehow have created an institute capable of pumping out a million+ sisters who have never fallen to Chaos where things become ridiculous. If there are a lot less sisters than that, then it becomes more plausible.
It's touched on, here and there, in places that Chaos, being something of a supernatural or paranormal thing, is countered by the equally supernatural and paranormal. As Chaos is sort of the setting's "Big Evil", its influence is countered by religions devotions, prayers, certain occult signs and arcane wards, and other mystic mumbo-jumbo.
Since the Sisters spend so much of their time in prayer and religious devotions, it does not surprise me that there's very little opportunity for them to be tempted by Chaos. After all, they reside in places that are "holy ground", they shut themselves off from the sins of the flesh and temptations of venial pleasures, and are very firmly grounded in a profound faith in the God-Emperor, whom the Ruinous Powers of Chaos refer to as "the Anathema". It's really not surprising that, given this, it is rare for Sisters to even be tempted, let alone risk falling.
But, yeah. As far as featuring the Sisters as the main protagonists, I think there's.... four examples in the Black Library? Maybe?
The WD codex actually only said that 100 was the minimum size of a Minor Order, and said nothing about their maximum size. The e-Codex just clarified that 1000 is the maximum size.
Don't have my e-book on hand, but doesn't it now state that the six Orders Major have something like "many tens of thousands" of Sisters each or some similar wording? If so, that's a significant jump.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Not according to the books, but if you wanted you could have a whole regiment, and make up your own fluff. I personally really like the sound of this, and have considered doing it myself
If Slaanesh is the God of Sex, then why does Tzeench have a Thousand Sons
Iron warriors - 6500 pts WIP
necrons 1700 pts WIP
Dark Eldar - Getting Started
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DA:90+S++G+++M++B++I+Pw40k11+D++A++/eWD390R++T(T)DM+ ===== End Dakka Geek Code =====
Psienesis wrote: But, yeah. As far as featuring the Sisters as the main protagonists, I think there's.... four examples in the Black Library? Maybe?
I myself can think of six:
- Faith and Fire (must read this again soon) - Hammer and Anvil (ditto) - Red and Black (an audiobook) - Daemonifuge - The Death of Antagonis - A short story I forget the name of where a Hospitaller is displeased with some Marines Malevolent
Psienesis wrote: Don't have my e-book on hand, but doesn't it now state that the six Orders Major have something like "many tens of thousands" of Sisters each or some similar wording? If so, that's a significant jump.
Correct, it does say that. Though that could be referring to Sisters from non-Militant Orders. But maybe not. Regardless, I think we may well have seen a hint of a possible retcon with the Minor Orders getting such a big maximum size. It'll be interesting to see what subsequent studio material has to say on the matter.
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Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
I'm saying I'm NOT arguing with the validity of it. The studio says it's canon, I agree the studio says it's canon, I agree it's canon, but that doesn't change the fact that I think that it's unrealistic (assuming it's meant to be "realistic". Again, all bets are off if a supernatural power is involved).
I agree with you here. But I don´t get where did you take the idea of the Sisters NOT involving supernatural powers. Case for study: You launch a krak missile against a Sister Repentia and hit her in the face. The missile explodes. She is unscathed because her faith in the Emperor protects her. How can this be "natural"?
The Sisters make sense involving supernatural beings. They are totally unrealistic any other way.
By including the Emperor in the ecuation, everything fits: the Sisters are incorruptible because they are already "taken". Nurgle can not "corrupt" a Khorne Berserker. The Emperor can not "corrupt" a Noise Marine. Tzeentch can not "corrupt" a Sister of Battle. All of them are already property of a god. The truly faithful have the "Mark of the Emperor".
I have always assumed that the Emperor was a god or an equivalent being. It can be even an ascended human, a psyker, a Ctan, or a renegade Chaos God. The effect is the same: he is powerful enough to have a presence in the Warp, which is the collective "soul" of the universe. A Sister is full of His Light. Nothing else. There is no empty place to fill.
By the way: Space Marines are proud, and emotionally closer to teenagers than men. And most of them do not see the Emperor as a god. So they can be corrupted. A normal human of unbreakable faith is incorruptible too, as long as his/her faith holds.
Edit: typos
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‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
Psienesis wrote: But, yeah. As far as featuring the Sisters as the main protagonists, I think there's.... four examples in the Black Library? Maybe?
I myself can think of six:
- Faith and Fire (must read this again soon)
- Hammer and Anvil (ditto)
- Red and Black (an audiobook)
- Daemonifuge
- The Death of Antagonis
- A short story I forget the name of where a Hospitaller is displeased with some Marines Malevolent
The novel "Grey Knights" also features a whole lot of Sororitas. It is a decent novel from the times when Grey Knights were not tainted by Khorne and Sororitas could win a fight. Sororitas are not the main characters though.
I'm saying I'm NOT arguing with the validity of it. The studio says it's canon, I agree the studio says it's canon, I agree it's canon, but that doesn't change the fact that I think that it's unrealistic (assuming it's meant to be "realistic". Again, all bets are off if a supernatural power is involved).
I agree with you here. But I don´t get where did you take the idea of the Sisters NOT involving supernatural powers. Case for study: You launch a krak missile against a Sister Repentia and hit her in the face. The missile explodes. She is unscathed because her faith in the Emperor protects her. How can this be "natural"?
The Sisters make sense involving supernatural beings. They are totally unrealistic any other way.
By including the Emperor in the ecuation, everything fits: the Sisters are uncorruptible because they are already "taken". Nurgle can not "corrupt" a Khorne Berserker. The Emperor can not "corrupt" a Noise Marine. Tzeentch can not "corrupt" a Sister of Battle. All of them are already property of a god. The truly faithful have the "Mark of the Emperor".
I have always assumed that the Emperor was a god or an equivalent being. It can be even an ascended human, a psyker, a Ctan, or a renegade Chaos God. The effect is the same: he is powerful enough to have a presence in the Warp, which is the collective "soul" of the universe. A Sister is full of His Light. Nothing else. There is no empty place to fill.
By the way: Space Marines are proud, and emotionally closer to teenagers than men. And most of them do not see the Emperor as a god. So they can be corrupted. A normal human of unbreakable faith is uncorruptible too, as long as his/her faith holds.
I agree with you here. But I don´t get where did you take the idea of the Sisters NOT involving supernatural powers.
Hypothetically speaking. That's why I always included "if", and "if it DOES include supernatural powers, then all bets are off" (IE, "That explains it, then.")
Me personally, I think a near-naked sister withstanding a missile hit is entirely supernatural too, but the description in the codex actually pretty much spells out it's just a willpower thing (despite how it lets sisters withstand crazy things that other Stubborn or Feel No Pain rules etc don't, and only Tzeentch himself is capable of matching with his own invulnerable saves).
Ditto goes for sisters turning to Chaos or not. I too always suspected/felt that it was in part because the Emperor himself was involved, via already owning their souls or whatever else (since the sisters' founder did meet the Emperor), but again, the codex explicitly states it's "a sign of their strength".
....personally I find it ironic that the most faithful and religious organization, going by the wording of the codex, has the least amount of supernatural involved of all the factions besides the "almost no psychic presence" Tau and the "we replace magic with super science" necrons, but that's the way the codex seems to word things for the most part. St Celestine being an exception, although even she has debates on whether she's supernatural or not from some people, apparently.
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This isn't the only mention, but it's the first official link I found in google. The sentence itself is copypasta from earlier editions; if you want I can look up precisely where I've seen it before.
Sarouan wrote:Even so, I doubt absolutely NO exception would be make in such a big universe as 40k - the thousand of thousand of planetary systems owned by the Imperium, that kind of stuff.
One could claim that this is merely the rule and that it doesn't apply everywhere, but as this would go against the text-as-written, I wouldn't have to accept such a theory.
It's not hard to think of this as a general rule that has the Sisterhood simply reject a candidate, even if the Schola would be fine with it. The Sororitas have loads of rules for almost everything, traced back to the original San Leor temple - we've seen some examples in the WD Liber Sororitas.
Sarouan wrote:I know at least one. The cultist champion with the shotgun from the starter box. His official fluff is a former commissar who betrayed his men because he didn't want to die. And he joined Chaos. Nothing more "GW labeled" than that, since there is a model.
You know, I totally forgot about that guy.
Point conceded!
Sarouan wrote:Yes, they are resilient. But humans will still be humans; they have weaknesses. If all humanity was flawless and it just takes some Schola Progenium to solve everything, Chaos would already be defeated for a long time.
"Some"? Being brainwashed from birth isn't practical; this sort of education takes up way too much time. It takes longer to make a Battle Sister than a Space Marine!
The Imperium doesn't even manage to send everyone into normal schools.
That being said, the nigh-omnipresent Ecclesiarchy seems to have helped somewhat in focusing people's loyalty, from what the rulebook tells us.
Sarouan wrote:Sisters also serve as formal guard for the Ecclesiarchy. So it's not like they completely cut themselves from the rest of the world. They are in fact a lot like marines in that way (not all chapters are "human friendly" like Space Wolves or Ultramarines, some are really reclusive and have little to do with "mere humans" if anything).
Also, some orders are closer than others. It's especially true for the Hospitaliers (is that the right name?) for obvious reasons, but the Ordo Famulous and Dialogus are quite known as well for their sociability.
Battle Sisters serve as formal guard when they are needed as escorts; I don't think they hang around in the public 24/7. The isolation bit is a very important trait of the Sisters, mentioned several times with their fluff and in a much more prominent manner than with the Marines (there it appears to be more of a side-effect of manning a "castle" rather than intentional avoidance of the local population).
But no, the threat of spiritual corruption to Marine Chapters comes mainly from its recruits, who are taken in at age ~10, already seeped into the culture of their homeworld. The Sons of Malice, for example, are said to have picked up cannibalism from the local tribes.
The point about the Non-Militant Orders is more valid, though I'd assume they would have a mind to maintain their distance when not required. And I thought we were discussing Battle Sisters!
Sarouan wrote:This is indeed only the name, and that's why it worked. People who took these "corrupted seeds" thought it was a genuine Schola Progenium.
But that's not how it is described? This special facility only trained the servants of those Radical Inquisitors who had set it up. They did not use them as infiltrators, because they wanted their services for themselves, directly.
Those Inquisitors were not random Chaos cultists with the intention to destroy the Imperium - it'd make no sense for them to "waste" decades in training for their investment to be randomly shipped off to some place at the other end of the galaxy. They just wanted child soldiers and brainwashed assassins for their own use.
The Inquisitors wouldn't even be able to use their pawns if they had intended otherwise. The Schola does not distribute its children, it notifies the respective Imperial Adepta, who then just takes these graduates and decides for itself how and where to use them. In the case of the Sisterhood, a representative from the Orders Famulous would show up on-site to personally examine the candidate and, if found worthy, arrange transfer to a convent for novitiate. Where the novice eventually ends up is not decided until she has taken her vows on Holy Terra.
Sarouan wrote:It is obvious that with the size of the Imperium, there can't be just "one" Schola Progenium to fill all its needs
Indeed, no argument there!
Sarouan wrote:Story of corruption inside one of them would be quite interesting to read...
There was a bit about this in the 2E Codex around the Age of Apostasy. In the end, this was the reason for why the Ecclesiarchy had implemented stricter regulations, which is why I'm not convinced of the idea that there'd be notable differences when the Church has taken action precisely against such things.
"During the Age of Apostasy in the 36th Millennium, most of the Schola Progenium were corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial Commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling the corrupt and tyrannical Apostle-Cardinal Goge Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain."
Sarouan wrote:Absolutely, they're not. I'm just saying Space Marines are even less normal than the first two...because their fluff clearly says they're much more than humans. That's why I find weird people saying marines falling to Chaos is "normal" while saying absolutely "no" when talking about the possibility of sisters being corrupted. While the sisters are, in fact, more humans than marines when compared to the rest of humanity.
I'd argue that physically, Sisters are of course closer to normal humans than Space Marines. Spiritually, however, it is the Space Marines who are closer to normal humans, compared to the Sisters. And corruption works on the spiritual level.
All Marines had a (relatively, depending on local practices) normal life until they were recruited. Marines suffer pride and arrogance - exactly the things that led to the Horus Heresy - and, depending on the Chapter, other human expressions or even pastimes.
The Sisters are almost like robots in this regard. Brainwashed, programmed. They still have personalities, but they are far less "colourful", more uniform and more focused than those of the Astartes. At least this is what I'm reading out of GW's material.
Sarouan wrote:Word Bearers did have faith as well. It seems like it ended quite badly for them.
Maybe the Sisters would suffer a crisis of faith as well if the Emperor would tell them to stop wasting time.
Fortunately, he doesn't seem to be able to do so anytime soon.
Sarouan wrote:That's because they had to fill "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" with stories of corrupted marines. If it was corrupted sisters but no model made for them, it would have no point. That doesn't mean they can't exist in the fluff. Just like whole companies of guardswomen.
They could have had such stories in the SoB Codex, though, just like you also have stories about CSM in the normal Space Marine Codex.
Sarouan wrote:That's because when you keep fighting the Great Enemy for hundred of years, you can't get away with your mind unharmed. If sisters were forced to fight Chaos over and over, I'm not sure their faith would absolutely stayed untouched for all of them.
Maybe, maybe not. Canoness Carmina has led the Order of the Argent Shroud for over a hundred years and doesn't seem to suffer corruption. But that's kind of the point, isn't it? Their sheltered existence and meditation is what seems to "reset" their exposure, and the Major Orders' casualty rates may remove a lot of problems before they even rise up.
Sarouan wrote:But I also play a renegade guard army, so that may be the reason of my own corruption.
That's alright. We're here to help you.
Please report to Excruciation Chamber 1138 at 0800 hours for Arco-flagellation.
Sarouan wrote:No, it's another battle (quite old, I must say...it was from an older edition). A high priest took over his world and rebelled against the Imperium, but got too hungry and wanted to invade the home world of Space Wolves (yeah, he was THAT stupid). Got his ass quite harshly whipped.
Urgh. Yes, Cardinal Bucharis - that story was pure SW fanwank. But this was during the Age of Apostasy; the Ministorum wasn't quite the same back then, thanks to Vandire's machinations.
Not saying the same couldn't happen again in M41 mind you. Priests are much more normal people than Sisters are. For one, they didn't all grow up in the Schola. But there's also a lot of political intrigue going on in the Ministorum. It is not unthinkable that many who rise to power may have used unsavoury means to gain their position.
Sarouan wrote:That's because your forget what human nature is.
Human nature the Sisters had beaten out of their little heads when they were children..
And yes, the exchange is enjoyable! Even though I think we may ultimately end up moving in circles. In 40k, so much tends to rely on interpretation.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:We never see them with some holes in their armor so that they can pleasure themselves during battle, do we ? We never hear about them trying to seduce other space marines in the middle of battle by showing off their manly appeal neither, do we ?
No, according to the Index Astartes they'd do this after battle.
"When Horus laid siege to Terra itself, the Emperor's Children were at his side, but they took little part in the slow process of whittling down the massive defences of the Imperial Palace. Instead Fulgrim turned his Legion loose on the uncontested areas of the planet, where billions of terrified humans cowered at the sight of the followers of Chaos, suddenly stripped of the protection they had counted on from the Palace."
Here is the entire online backup of the article, by the way.
Ultimately, I'm just saying that "every sensation" is rather likely to mean "every sensation", and not "every sensation except sexual pleasure".
TiamatRoar wrote:I assume sisters, being trained from a very early age, are kind of similar to this. However, I find it difficult to imagine that they didn't develop any emotional ties whatsoever while they were children, at least. It's rather hard to raise someone up from a child without creating some emotional ties no matter how stringent you are.
Hard to say. I find it really tough to imagine what life in a Schola must be like, simply because it is so different to what we as normal human beings are used to.
I like to think that, certainly, Sisters would form some kind of emotional ties with their unit - it is said that the Superior "adopts" new recruits into her squad, which makes it feel like some sort of grimdark family, where the Sister Superior is like a sort of ersatz mother who takes care of your needs, but doesn't hold back with corporeal punishment if you make the slightest mistake, or indeed may put a bullet in your head.
TiamatRoar wrote:so how could they find THAT many super-perfect-ultra-faithful-never-fall-to-chaos girls?
The Imperium is large. There's probably a rather big number of Scholas, and the Sisterhood doesn't seem to be huge, given their presence in various battles where we were given numbers of how many troops from which faction showed up.
I'm sure it's sufficient to gather those select 500 who end up taking their vows in the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra.
TiamatRoar wrote:Probably less than there are Space Marines, but it'd still be around a magnitude of 200,000 - 500,000 sisters
That's fairly close to my own guesstimate, actually! For the generational thing it might be prudent to note that the Sisterhood grew over time - they had 4.000 when they were founded by Sebastian Thor. Dunno if you included this in your generational calculation.
But I'd say Psienesis' point regarding the self-control is important here. They don't mess around, and their dedication and close-knit lifestyle makes keeping secrets really hard. Especially when every Sister feels a burning desire to confess them herself.
By the way, here are some force organisation charts to exemplify the size of Sororitas forces in comparison to other Imperial elements at major battles: Armageddon 13th Black Crusade
TiamatRoar wrote:So the sisters would have to do a lot of purging in that case and get a LOT of false positives
I'd say they do, in a way. Not because they accuse each other, but because they accuse themselves. The Codex even flat out says this when it talks about them doing "penance for sins (real or otherwise)".
In a way, one could say they have a very low tolerance for their own shortcomings, and this might play a huge role when it actually comes to corruption, as it could be excised before it takes hold for real.
Psienesis wrote:They make them.
Well put.
I think the "raising from infancy" is the important part here.
Troike wrote:Soulstorm, for example, had "millions" (it might've just been a million) of Sisters coming to a world to pray.
Even in Soulstorm it is a matter of interpretation. It says that Kaurava became a holy world where "many millions of Sisters would gather in prayer and preparation for their holy wars" - so it's not a permanent population, but just the amount of visitors passing through. And given that no timeframe is provided, this could well mean that this means millions of sisters ... over thousands of years.
I'm sure Ophelia VII has seen as much, too.
Troike wrote:I myself can think of six:
- Faith and Fire (must read this again soon) - Hammer and Anvil (ditto) - Red and Black (an audiobook) - Daemonifuge - The Death of Antagonis - A short story I forget the name of where a Hospitaller is displeased with some Marines Malevolent
Don't forget Daemonblood!
That story is particularly important for this topic.
Troike wrote:Correct, it does say that. Though that could be referring to Sisters from non-Militant Orders. But maybe not.
It's referring to the convent buildings, and both the Convent Prioris as well as the Convent Sanctorum house more than just Battle Sisters. The numbers we were given in the 2E Codex were 15.000 warriors per Convent.
Troike wrote:After some discussion in another thread, it seems that nothing was actually retconned, just fleshed out. The WD codex actually only said that 100 was the minimum size of a Minor Order, and said nothing about their maximum size. The e-Codex just clarified that 1000 is the maximum size.
That's my opinion, too, anyways. To quote myself from the other thread:
Lynata wrote:We were given an average once ... *rummages* ah, here: "... as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters ..." - 5E rulebook, Defenders of the Imperium
I thought it makes sense, considering the sizes of Mission (~50) and Commandery (up to 200) level forces given in the 3E Witch Hunter Codex. Commandery in particular was said to be "a term used to describe a smaller convent, perhaps little more than a shrine and a garrison of Battle Sisters cloistered together to defend it", whereas Preceptory (up to 1.000) was said to apply to larger convents "maintained by some, notably the Greater Orders", which does sound as if they'd be an exception for Minor ones.
So ... all of this is fluff we had before, it dates back right to the 3E Codex which had established Minor Orders as subsidiary convents in the first place.
da001 wrote:But I don´t get where did you take the idea of the Sisters NOT involving supernatural powers.
Codex fluff refers to their faith as inspiring them to greater feats, and that Acts of Faith are considered "miraculous by the unschooled". That sounds like a combination of superstition and badass willpower to me.
To take your example - the krak missile wouldn't "hit her face". This is not what the TT represents. The dice roll represents a krak missile detonating so close to that Repentia that everyone would assume that, by all rights, she should be dead, but somehow she continues running towards your men, her body wracked by shrapnel wounds, maybe even missing an arm. But she keeps running towards you, screaming like a mad fury, and your troops gak their pants.
Abstraction. And in a way, this is no different than the Marines' FNP, is it?
... damn this thread is moving fast!
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Kroothawk wrote: The novel "Grey Knights" also features a whole lot of Sororitas. It is a decent novel from the times when [...] Sororitas could win a fight.
You know, after learning so much SoB fluff, I honestly think that the whole "Sisters are constantly murdered in the fluff" might just be internet hyperbole. On balance, I'd say that I've seen them do well much more than they get slaughtered. I reckon it was just an overreaction to the Bloodtide that started this idea. This is somewhat subjective, though.
TiamatRoar wrote: ....personally I find it ironic that the most faithful and religious organization, going by the wording of the codex, has the least amount of supernatural involved of all the factions
For me, this is a big part of their appeal. No "space magic", just iron willpowers. The Sisters get their edge in this brutal, brutal setting through sheer belief alone. That's pretty damn badass.
da001 wrote: By the way: Space Marines are proud, and emotionally closer to teenagers than men. And most of them do not see the Emperor as a god. So they can be corrupted.
My explanation has always been that, partly, the reason Astartes are easier to corrupt is that their loyalty to Big E get "diluted" with other things. Loyalty to the Primarch, their chapter's own temperment and quirks, things like that. The Sisters, on the other hand, don't really have any of that. For them, it's just Emperor, Emperor, Emperor, as well as some Saints who were/are as into the Emperor as they are.
Lynata wrote: it is said that the Superior "adopts" new recruits into her squad, which makes it feel like some sort of grimdark family, where the Sister Superior is like a sort of ersatz mother who takes care of your needs, but doesn't hold back with corporeal punishment if you make the slightest mistake, or indeed may put a bullet in your head.
Completely supported by the fluff, too. Superiors are tasked with overseeing the "physical and spiritual training" of her squad. So yeah, I suppose that one could view Superiors as grimdark overbearing mothers, if one wanted.
Lynata wrote: Even in Soulstorm it is a matter of interpretation. It says that Kaurava became a holy world where "many millions of Sisters would gather in prayer and preparation for their holy wars" - so it's not a permanent population, but just the amount of visitors passing through. And given that no timeframe is provided, this could well mean that this means millions of sisters ... over thousands of years.
Hmmm, I dunno. The use of "gather" makes it sound like they're all there at once, to me.
Soulstorm did also have Sacred Rose getting their elite Celestians from Ophelia despite SR being based on Terra, and the Acts of Faith going into outright magic. so I'm thinking that the devs might not have had the finer points of SoB lore nailed down.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/23 22:02:21
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
I know the possibility of Acts of Faith being caused by training, or other "natural" things, has been toyed with before. I know the "miraculous for the unschooled" sentence. But there has always been a rather more obvious explanation, supernatural and related with, well, faith. Psykers, magic, faith, whatever the dark eldar and the necrons do ... are all terms related with the supernatural.
It seems I need to reread the newest codex.
However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training... then I am with TiamatRoar: it makes no sense. They should fall to chaos (and other things) left and right.
And I will completely ignore it and still believe that in this setting, faith is completely supernatural. What about people like Euphrati Keller? Saints are just people with faith. And a single human with faith can defeat anything in this setting.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
Troike wrote:You know, after learning so much SoB fluff, I honestly think that the whole "Sisters are constantly murdered in the fluff" might just be internet hyperbole.
It may just be a matter of some sources being more well known than others. How many people are reading a Marine bolterporn novel compared to the SoB codices or their own few stories?
Troike wrote:Soulstorm did also have Sacred Rose getting their elite Celestians from Ophelia despite SR being based on Terra, and the Acts of Faith going into outright magic. so I'm thinking that the devs might not have had the finer points of SoB lore nailed down.
And there was a different Living Saint in spite of such creatures only making an appearance every couple hundred years - and not all of them would look like Celestine, obviously.
Yeah, you're probably right about these "finer points". Not really different from many novel authors. I still give them an A for effort. The storyline, the voices, that kind of stuff all fit. And I loved those little bits of fluff you had on their sectors on the campaign map. Like that public declaration that, by Ecclesiarchal decree, the Canoness was now in charge of the city, and that loyal subjects of the Emperor should report to the Commandery at 0900 sharp to receive weapons and be recruited into the Frateris Militia. Followed by a line about how sinners who wished to confess and save their souls should report there at 0845.
This is deliciously grimdark and hilarious at the same time.
da001 wrote:I know the possibility of Acts of Faith being caused by training, or other "natural" things, has been toyed with before. I know the "miraculous for the unschooled" sentence. But there has always been a rather more obvious explanation, supernatural and related with, well, faith. Psykers, magic, faith, whatever the dark eldar and the necrons do ... are all terms related with the supernatural.
Only more obvious if you presuppose the existence of divine magic - would you do the same for all those supposed miracles reported in our real world?
In the end, each of us can choose for themselves how to treat Acts of Faith. As Troike mentioned, Soulstorm gives a clear example of AoF as Space Magic, and FFG's RPG does as well. But like Troike, I too still prefer GW's original material on this, because it makes them all the more badass. And it's not like we don't have the idea of "mind over matter" exist in our world as well. Did you hear about this guy? Perfect example of an AoF. Or FNP - I think those two are related, anyways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/23 22:16:13
Acts of Faith are categorically described as being non-Psychic in origin, which is why they cannot be dispelled and no kind of DtW test can be made against them.
Of course, no explanation of what they *are* is given, just examples of what they *aren't*.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
For what it's worth, GW's own Inquisitor game had an SoB character, and her description actually said that Acts of Faith aren't counted as psychic powers.
da001 wrote: However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training... then I am with TiamatRoar: it makes no sense. They should fall to chaos (and other things) left and right.
Not at all. Magic is not the only way to reject Chaos. Look at how adamantium will works, the influence of the warp can be resisted with willpower alone.
da001 wrote: However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training...
The new codex doesn't really say anything different to the old codexes on the matter, really. They've all been quite consistent about Acts of Faith.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata wrote: I still give them an A for effort. The storyline, the voices, that kind of stuff all fit. And I loved those little bits of fluff you had on their sectors on the campaign map. Like that public declaration that, by Ecclesiarchal decree, the Canoness was now in charge of the city, and that loyal subjects of the Emperor should report to the Commandery at 0900 sharp to receive weapons and be recruited into the Frateris Militia. Followed by a line about how sinners who wished to confess and save their souls should report there at 0845.
This is deliciously grimdark and hilarious at the same time.
Oh, me too, me too. They certainly treated the Sisters with respect.
I absolutely loved their voice acting in that. The Immolator and Canoness especially were great. I also liked that one territory description where there's a priest who's torn between his loyalty to the IG and the Ecclesiarchy, all while the Sisters are kicking down doors and burning things on a daily basis.
Also, the part about the Frateris Militia and confessions was even worse than that, IIRC. I think it was 0850 for the milita and 0900 for the confessions. So only ten minutes, and showing up late gets you purged.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/23 22:19:40
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
da001 wrote: By the way: Space Marines are proud, and emotionally closer to teenagers than men. And most of them do not see the Emperor as a god. So they can be corrupted.
My explanation has always been that, partly, the reason Astartes are easier to corrupt is that their loyalty to Big E get "diluted" with other things. Loyalty to the Primarch, their chapter's own temperment and quirks, things like that. The Sisters, on the other hand, don't really have any of that. For them, it's just Emperor, Emperor, Emperor, as well as some Saints who were/are as into the Emperor as they are.
My explanation is: they were purposefully created that way. The Horus Heresy was part of a plan.
It has been hinted here and there that the primarchs are related with (born from) the Warp. And some old fluff like the first version of the Horus Heresy by William King says it openly. In the original story, the Emperor saw everything up to a particular point of blindness. He didn´t knew what was going to happen past that point. But he knew (and co-orchestrated) everything before. Including the fall of half his sons.
Also, I am not sure the Astartes are easy to corrupt. Humans do not stand a chance. Full regiments of hardened veterans of the Imperial Guard get corrupted so quickly that the Imperium regularly kills them all after a single battle involving chaos unleashed, not allowing them to return to their homes lest the taint spreads.
Yet Sisters do not fall to Chaos.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
Troike wrote:Also, the part about the Frateris Militia and confessions was even worse than that, IIRC. I think it was 0850 for the milita and 0900 for the confessions. So only ten minutes, and showing up late gets you purged.
Oh, was it that way around?
And here I thought they're collecting penitents first, then have them shot by the newly recruited zealots.
da001 wrote:Yet Sisters do not fall to Chaos.
Well, their lifestyle is more hardcore than anyone elses.
As has been said, it's that overwhelmingly intense indoctrination that does it. Their willpowers are strengthened enough to be able to resist Chaotic influence.
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Lynata wrote: And here I thought they're collecting penitents first, then have them shot by the newly recruited zealots.
Poor timekeeping is a dire heresy. It needed to be that way around so that they could easily purge the heretics in their midst.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/23 22:34:31
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
A Tzeentchian trick.
A Nurgle affliction.
A Slaaneshii promise.
A Khornate bloodlust.
Here's some of the better Chaos/Rogue Sister pictures. (IMHO). While searching for this a lot of Chaos SoB concept seem to be "Tits Out", I hope these images prove it doesn't have to be the case. The first image of the particularly ornate Sister is probably my favourite. I'm saddened I couldn't find any Nurgle or Tzeentch Sisters...
More.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/23 22:33:36
da001 wrote:I know the possibility of Acts of Faith being caused by training, or other "natural" things, has been toyed with before. I know the "miraculous for the unschooled" sentence. But there has always been a rather more obvious explanation, supernatural and related with, well, faith. Psykers, magic, faith, whatever the dark eldar and the necrons do ... are all terms related with the supernatural.
Only more obvious if you presuppose the existence of divine magic - would you do the same for all those supposed miracles reported in our real world?
You are asking me if I am or I am not an atheist, if I believe or not in "something" out of what can be explained by reason. This can be the source of our disagreement.
I think the w40k setting works on the premise that miracles happen all the time. And that they are caused by gods... or psy-powers, or magic, or...
In the end, each of us can choose for themselves how to treat Acts of Faith.
Yep. This is what makes this background so good. I already made my choice. I hope they never make the subject clear.
For what it's worth, GW's own Inquisitor game had an SoB character, and her description actually said that Acts of Faith aren't counted as psychic powers.
This is stated many times. Faith, sorcery, psychic powers... are different.
da001 wrote: However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training... then I am with TiamatRoar: it makes no sense. They should fall to chaos (and other things) left and right.
Not at all. Magic is not the only way to reject Chaos. Look at how adamantium will works, the influence of the warp can be resisted with willpower alone.
Only for a few seconds, only if it is raw power (a blast of energy instead of a lie you hear from your best friend), only if you are lucky
da001 wrote: However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training...
The new codex doesn't really say anything different to the old codexes on the matter, really. They've all been quite consistent about Acts of Faith.
Good. I was concerned.
There is a high possibility that some writers in the GW current studio see the Sisters as "Imperial Guard +1". That would explain the state of the full faction. I must admit I would fail to see the point of the army if faith (the way I understand it, supernatural is turn mundane (good training + will power). Most guardsmen believe in the divinity of the Emperor. If a Hive world replicates the Schola Progenia training, what would be the difference? We will get billions of uncorruptibles. I understand that some of you do not see it that way, but it will kill my interest in the army for sure
(...) Soulstorm
I still play that game. Best game ever. New mods are developed all the time (Dark Angels just arrived, Demons soon to get a new version...). And it is quite respectful with the spirit of the setting.
But they can not. It is said so in many places. Grey Knights and Sisters do not fall to Chaos.
Thanks for the links.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/23 23:02:40
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
A Tzeentchian trick.
A Nurgle affliction.
A Slaaneshii promise.
A Khornate bloodlust.
Except they can't. They are, by their Codex, "utterly incorruptible". They, like the Grey Knights, have exactly zero studio characters having fallen to Chaos.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/23 23:15:10
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Well I believe there was an old WD back when the Daemon Hunters codex was out that allowed you to have Daemons in your army.
It offered situations in which normally uncorruptable (the one I can remember is Tau) forces could have Daemons within their ranks. They gave a variety of situations in which this could happen. Daemonic Artifacts disguised as holy relics etc. I don't have the details as that WD was lost to the ages long ago. (I'm sure somebody will have it still).
Anything is possible in 40k. It's partially why the fluff is so vague in parts. Even the concrete stuff can be swept aside and replaced. The concept of Chaos SoB doesn't dilute the faction. They don't have to be common but they can theoretically exist. Orders that have fallen could be expunged from all Imperial Records or be Excommunicated and technically no longer be "Sisters". Who knows.
da001 wrote: However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training... then I am with TiamatRoar: it makes no sense. They should fall to chaos (and other things) left and right.
Not at all. Magic is not the only way to reject Chaos. Look at how adamantium will works, the influence of the warp can be resisted with willpower alone.
Only for a few seconds, only if it is raw power (a blast of energy instead of a lie you hear from your best friend), only if you are lucky
Nope, it can work for an extended period. Here, look at this:
The Sisters in it are simply immune to a Nurglite plague, which would be constant presence and threat rather than a solitary attack. In a similar vein, Anastasia herself suffers the plague for days before finally fighting it off.
Now, I know that your response will likely be that it could have been the power of faith that protected them, but I think that this ties in nicely with what the SoB codexes say and the idea behind Adamantium will. Stong willpower alone acting as a bulwark against Chaos.
I disagree. They are wholly defined by their extreme, unrelenting faith. If GW were to simply disregard that and start haivng multiple Sisters falling, then the Sisters have lost a big part of what makes them special. How is their faith (their defining aspect) meant to look impressive if it is broken multiple times?
I think you are thinking of Codex: Daemonhunters? That is the old GK + Inquisition Codex. However, the SOB were in Codex: Witch-Hunters, which had a different aspect of the Inquisition, who did not bring Daemonhosts to the table. There weren't ally rules in those days, either, so mixing things out of different books wasn't officially legit.
In C: DH, you could have a Daemonhost in your Inquisitor Army *if* you did not have Grey Knight units on the table. The Daemonhost, however, was a stand-alone unit type and model, not one selected from a squad already on the table (as Possession and such would do in Chaos armies). So, however the Inquisitor dragging it along with him/her got it, it was done before they arrived at this battlefield.
Also, while some fluff *is* vague, the "utterly incorruptible" line from C:AS is not.
Edit: Bah, response intended for Medium of Death up there...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/23 23:35:14
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
It was a WD article to justify why the Grey Knights would be fighting another army. The situation I remember was a Tau ethereal being transformed into a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch after coming into contact with an artifact. It was more scenario based. Its an example of the incorruptable being corrupted and while not directly SoB, it's certainly out there. I'm not sure if Witch Hunters were included in the article.
The concept of the SoB start off with them being fooled by a despotic man, I'm sure their sucessors aren't completely immune to the trickery of the Chaos Gods. I still think the possibility of expunging records or excommunication is valid.
Troike wrote: - A short story I forget the name of where a Hospitaller is displeased with some Marines Malevolent
Does she kills them all and then sends their progenoid glands on a stick to the Malevolent chapter master, along with a written note which just contains a big feth YOU ? I sure hope she does !
Medium of Death wrote: Here's some of the better Chaos/Rogue Sister pictures. (IMHO). While searching for this a lot of Chaos SoB concept seem to be "Tits Out", I hope these images prove it doesn't have to be the case. The first image of the particularly ornate Sister is probably my favourite. I'm saddened I couldn't find any Nurgle or Tzeentch Sisters...
Spoiler:
More.
Those are awesome pictures !
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far. 
Iron warriors - 6500 pts WIP
necrons 1700 pts WIP
Dark Eldar - Getting Started
Well put.
