Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Marines resist chaos corruption through science. They use hypnosis, drugs, and implants to cram knowledge and propaganda into a new recruit which turns him into a perfect, obedient killing machine biologically designed to resist psychological attacks.

Sisters resist chaos corruption through faith. They brainwash recruits from infancy, teach catechisms, instill hatred of anything non-Imperium, and surround themselves with like-minded comrades to reduce a sense of self-worth or ego.

Grey Knights resist chaos corruption through sorcery. They cover themselves from head to toe in wards and sigils, inscribe them on their own bones, and deck themselves in special armor with runes and protective detailing on every flat surface.

Chaos can circumvent space marine science by appealing to their lack of faith. Most marines that go rogue do so because they don't have fellow brethren around to reinforce their own beliefs, or chaplains to instill faithfulness.

Sisters are human beings without the enhanced physiology of a marine. Chaos can talk at them all day long and their defenses will protect against that. Slice out a piece of their brain or stick a probe through an eye socket though and you get around that weak flesh pretty easy. They could be controlled by any sort of technology.

And both space marines and sisters can get taken out by sorcery just fine. Blood tides, ill-fated crusades into the Eye, being in the presence of a particularly powerful greater daemon, they can zap you into a chaos worshiper and all the faith or extra glands in the world isn't going to stop it if they put enough magic into it.

Grey Knights get around all this by having the science of space marines, the faith of sisters (albeit less of a blind faith in a vague all-powerful god and more of an applied science kind of faith where they carve up faithful sisters and use pieces of them instead) and sorcery with their fifty pounds of hexagrammatic wards. And even with that, they can still be corrupted.

The difference is that all those wards on their flesh and bones and armor don't just shield them from corruption. A grey knight who has all his defenses strong-armed by impatient demigods who just want the worship right now is gonna have those wards and sigils suddenly go sizzle crack pop, and the Grey Knights continue to have a flawless track record of no living brothers corrupted by Chaos.

After all, they're specifically designed to fight the most corrupting power in the universe, and their own psyker brains make them the biggest targets of all. If they're willing to murder a planet to keep any corruption from spreading, why would they hesitate for an instant over someone with all that knowledge and power and training?


...And that's my thesis on chaos corruption in the Imperium of Man. Gonna get me a Bachelor's Degree in Science Fiction Applied Psychology from Phoenix University for sure.

What is not at question is a Sister's ability to be killed by the various predations of Chaos. A Sister who fails to resist a Chaos Sorcerer's ability to control minds, for example, has no further immunity to such things... but she hasn't Fallen. She has not willingly pledged herself to the service of the Ruinous Powers.

A Sister can die to the mutating waves of power radiated by a Lord of Change, just like a Grey Knight can, but though both die as their flesh corrupts and mutates around them, they will die cursing the Daemon's name and praising the Emperor. Their souls remain pure, and neither of them have Fallen to Chaos.

That's what we're talking about. The willing choice by a Sister to serve the Ruinous Powers, not simply dying or mutating because she was exposed to the corrupting effects of the Warp and Daemon-magics.

The "Screaming Cage" is a great example of that. Despite being turned into a massive internconnected organism by Slaanesh (or one of his Daemons) an Order instead used the power this gave them to resist and instead "birthed" Stern, giving her the gift of all the knowledge that says what Slaanesh is, and how to beat him. This also turned her into what is basically a Living Saint.

The Screaming Cage, despite their predicament never willingly served Chaos, and even found a way to fight against it despite their situation.

flamingkillamajig wrote:I'm a bit idealistic too but at the end of the day reality hits and you realize things don't really change so drastically over a short time for the most part.

Sounds a bit like me, then. Of course that combination is kind of a free ticket to a rather pessimistic perspective of the world - you'd like things to be one way, but notice that things sadly don't work like that..

Gogsnik wrote:I don't ignore it, I just don't see it as that relevent. Yes, the indoctrination worked, he believed in what he was doing.
However, the important fact is that he is no-longer indoctrinated. He regrets what he did then and given a second chance his current self would not make that decision.
We are to believe that if this story was about a Sister she would still be perfectly indoctrinated.

No - see, you ignored half my argument. That camp was flawed because it had only sticks, not the carrot and the stick. That guy didn't break free from indoctrination because he had contact with the outside or any subversive elements of the Free World™ or because that "constant flood of indoctrination had ended" as you claim it could happen to a Sister .. it happened inside the camp whilst still subjected to its daily life. He fled because he realised that he's getting mistreated no matter what, because of how the corrupt guards essentially tortured him for doing what he was taught to do. In essence, the personnel at the camp were undermining their own indoctrination program. And the Sisterhood just doesn't work that way.

Gogsnik wrote:There is nothing inherent in a Sister's creation that could not apply to any human. We know there are no Brothers of Battle because of the Decree Passive, but, given the emphasis placed on these formative Schola years that produce the Sister's faith because it has been drummed into them from birth, what of the other Progena who had the same upbringing and as much faith as these girls but could not become Sisters by simply being male? Of course, the Schola is only the start of what makes a Sister but if the from birth aspect is so crucial then what happens in a Commissar's later life or a Storm Troper's later life or an Inquisitor's later life that the benefit of this childhood wears off and makes them open to corruption?

Several things:
- the majority of progena would not be in the Schola "from birth" but were inducted at a later point in their age, meaning they had an ordinary childhood and parents they would remember
- Commissars are exposed to "ordinary people" by being attached to Imperial Guard regiments raised on worlds that have a considerably different culture than the Schola
- Storm Troopers focus on martial training; they do not have the prayer and meditation aspect of the Sisters
- the majority of Inquisitors is not recruited out of the Schola Progenium (this is actually an exception) but out of another Inquisitor's retinue that he picked up over time (-> the rank of "Interrogator" is essentially a Pre-Inquisitor), or from the League of Black Ships (-> psykers)
- Inquisitors are even more exposed to the "grim harsh truth" of the galaxy rather than being allowed to lead a life of cosy denial, hugging the propaganda pillow

Could the Imperium produce more faithful troops by expanding the Schola program? Sure. Would it be worth the effort? Hardly. Sororitas are already just a small percentage of Schola graduates, and expanding the program would mean you end up with even more Administratum clerks and other "normal" graduates you don't exactly need a special education for. Also consider this: It takes about 10 years to create a Space Marine. It takes about 17 to produce a Sister of Battle.

The Imperium does not need legions of troops that are more faithful, loyal and incorruptible than the regiments it has already, because the Imperial Guard is good enough for the job it currently does. Because the Imperium needs to invest next to nothing into raising a fresh regiment as it's part of a planet's tithe. And considering the high casualty rates that the IG experiences, spending decades on troops that are more loyal and more suicidal just seems like a huuuuuuuge waste when you consider that many of them won't survive their very first engagement with the enemy. Hell, the Imperium doesn't even manage to give everyone body armour, and here you want them to install something like a universal education?

Gogsnik wrote:belief can act as a shield and barrier but only to an extent

It's not just "to an extent" - the Warp itself is based on thought and emotion. In this manner, willpower is the exact same force that the Immaterium operates on. You can literally "will" a psychic phenomenon out of existence, and affect even daemons by sheer power of belief.

Gogsnik wrote:Even so, what we are told is that no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos so far but that does not necessarily mean that they could not fall. It's a bit like saying the Golden Throne is failing, so far so good, but in another ten thousand years, in twenty?

So it's like with the Sisters. Apparently we are in agreement after all?

Gogsnik wrote:That is the problem though right there isn't it; 'whenever the studio material talks about the SoB'. The Sisters have had very little love from the Studio and much of what we know of them, even in the most recent background is pretty mich the same background copied into the latest edition.

To be fair, it's not really different in the Space Marine codices if you compare the different editions. They do like their copypasta.

ClockworkZion wrote:The "Screaming Cage" is a great example of that. Despite being turned into a massive internconnected organism by Slaanesh (or one of his Daemons) an Order instead used the power this gave them to resist and instead "birthed" Stern, giving her the gift of all the knowledge that says what Slaanesh is, and how to beat him. This also turned her into what is basically a Living Saint.
The Screaming Cage, despite their predicament never willingly served Chaos, and even found a way to fight against it despite their situation.

On the other hand, that graphic novel (as much as I love it for the cool narrative, the characters, and the visuals) had loads of Sisters being corrupted and fighting against each other, and even featured a version of "Chaos Sisters". The Screaming Cage was just the victims that, by the power of their faith, were not turned and managed to resist, but instead were subjugated by the fallen Sisters and then "experimented" upon to create that psychic abomination.

Those corrupted Sisters were possessed if I recall. That rather supersedes "falling" when your body is being used like a meat suit for a daemon.

That was a theory that I proposed in an earlier thread as an alternative (to address the very issue that is being discussed here), but it is actually not made clear in the comic itself. It could be taken either way.

And at the end of the day, that Keeper of Secrets still talked its way into their minds.

Well sisters can fall according to the grey knights omnibus but its rare [u]according to the cannoness in the book. According to the grey knights codex and the omnibus no grey knight has fallen yet but there are loads of stories and in the omnibus with grey knights breaking their backs over who is going to fall first.

As I said before I could see a squad or a single sister falling. So you could have a chaos lord sister or a squad of chosen but I really don't see a whole coven falling to chaos IMO.

Again, Black Library liberties. Per the Codex, not rare, but impossible. BL is under no compunction to follow what a Codex says, however.

Really comes down to what you accept as "canon" and what sources you value over other sources when they are in conflict.

 Lynata wrote:
Several things:
- the majority of progena would not be in the Schola "from birth" but were inducted at a later point in their age, meaning they had an ordinary childhood and parents they would remember
- Commissars are exposed to "ordinary people" by being attached to Imperial Guard regiments raised on worlds that have a considerably different culture than the Schola
- Storm Troopers focus on martial training; they do not have the prayer and meditation aspect of the Sisters
- the majority of Inquisitors is not recruited out of the Schola Progenium (this is actually an exception) but out of another Inquisitor's retinue that he picked up over time (-> the rank of "Interrogator" is essentially a Pre-Inquisitor), or from the League of Black Ships (-> psykers)
- Inquisitors are even more exposed to the "grim harsh truth" of the galaxy rather than being allowed to lead a life of cosy denial, hugging the propaganda pillow

Well, I mentioned the whole 'from birth' thing because other posters seemed to be making a big deal out of it. I mean, we are told that they only recruit from the Schola in more recent background although I see no reason why an older or adult woman could not 'get thee to a nunnery'.

Like you say, they can get orphans of all ages and personally, unless someone has a source for it, I don't even see those Progena tipped for the Sororitas always or even ever having to have been in the Schola 'from birth'.

I covered the fact that other Progena don't benefit from the Sisters lifestyle that provides a continuation of faith instilling begun in the Schola but again, people were making a big deal of the 'from birth' thing and so my point was to question the validity of saying that the Sororitas are so super because they are conditioned 'from birth' as not being that fundamentally important.

If their later Sororitas lifestyle produces their famed incorruptability predicated on their 'from birth' Schola upbringing then in the case of other Schola it seems this foundation doesn't provide such a wonderful base frame. I question the whole 'from birth' aspect mentioned by others, I don't agree with its significance myself.

Could the Imperium produce more faithful troops <snip>

I don't really want to discuss this so much, I mentioned it earlier to act as an intensifier for my points. Grey Knights were designed to be immune to Chaos primarily. I argue their nature as something more than a normal Astartes makes them this way and therefore, earlier in the discussion I wanted to highlight the reasons why Grey Knights are less likely than a Sister to fall. Simply put I was arguing that a Grey Knights biology is superior to a Sister's faith when that faith is the product of an indoctrination programme 'from birth' a process more simple to emulate than the process to make a Grey Knight.

Anyway, this is going in circles so let's move on. Phew!

It's not just "to an extent" - the Warp itself is based on thought and emotion. In this manner, willpower is the exact same force that the Immaterium operates on. You can literally "will" a psychic phenomenon out of existence, and affect even daemons by sheer power of belief.

Hrrm, well, if that were strictly true then you'd think that all those billions of faithful could have willed heresy out of existence by now then. I stand by my point on this one, it is 'to an extent'.

As an example of what I'm thinking here then picture two people falling into a stormy ocean. One has trained for years to hold their breath, one is a normal person. They both hold their breath as they go under the water and 'to an extent' this will stop them drowning but even though one can hold their breath for minutes and not seconds they will both eventually drown.

The same applies to the Warp and its denizens. Sure, someone like a Sister could will away the effects of Chaos far longer than a normal human but eventually the infinite nature of the Warp and Chaos will shatter that will - we're talking about during a direct assault here so in terms of a Sister they won't often have to pit their will and faith against daemonic enemies. I think it is very much 'to an extent'.

Anyway, I've said about as much as I can say on it all.

Gogsnik wrote:Well, I mentioned the whole 'from birth' thing because other posters seemed to be making a big deal out of it. I mean, we are told that they only recruit from the Schola in more recent background although I see no reason why an older or adult woman could not 'get thee to a nunnery'.

Well, it is a big deal - that's what "we" (insofar as I could speak for the other, anyways) are saying. Only with that clean slate will the indoctrination be total, else you'll always have something from your old life tucked away somewhere, and that something could become a weakness.

Gogsnik wrote:Like you say, they can get orphans of all ages and personally, unless someone has a source for it, I don't even see those Progena tipped for the Sororitas always or even ever having to have been in the Schola 'from birth'.

Various sources.

From their very first rules in WD #211, shortly before they got their first Codex:
"The Battle Sisters are utterly dedicated to the Emperor. Their one purpose is to strive for his honour and glory and to protect the Imperium from all threats. The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving, they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity. Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure, there is only prayer and war. There is nothing an enemy could offer them, they are impossible to bribe and totally incorruptible."
... all the way to the newest 6E DigiDex:
"The Adepta Sororitas, also known as the Sisters of Battle, are an elite sisterhood of warriors raised from infancy to adore the Emperor of Mankind. [...] Every Battle Sister is an orphan raised from birth to believe in the righteousness of their cause."

There's more in the codices and other material released between those two sources, but you get the gist of it.
This is not a requirement for Commissars, Storm Troopers, or Inquisitors, though - hence you may find that, perhaps, their indoctrination is not as thorough. Though it could also be because they do not "enjoy" the rigid convent life of the Sisterhood. Or it is a combination of these two factors - the clean slate and the constant reaffirmation. *shrug*

Of course, non-GW sources tend to forget or ignore such details. For example, I remember that one of the Shira Calpurnia novels mentions some noble joining the Sisterhood at a much later age, not even going through Schola education. That's just how the fluff in 40k works - gotta pick what you like more. In the end, I'm just here to point out what it says in GW's original writings. What everyone does with that is their own choice.

Gogsnik wrote:Anyway, this is going in circles so let's move on. Phew!

Yeah, some things are just a matter of interpretation, and it's unavoidable that personal preference will factor into it when you simply have to pick one or the other, and both are equally valid options.
It's like Gav Thorpe once wrote on his blog: "thousands of overlapping realities in the minds of thousands of readers, and neither of them is wrong."