UC Davis pepper-spraying cop gets settlement larger than the students he sprayed

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**hotsauceman1**

Um, What? The mindset is that a cop is supposed to follow orders or loose his job

**Jihadin**

I see a sequel coming starting tomorrow

**Zathras**

motyak wrote:
also, what is the paintball gun for?

My guess is they were loaded with Pepperball ammo:

Paintball guns...they're not just for paint anymore.

**Ouze**

Grey Templar wrote:
Ouze wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
not to mention those students were blocking the police officers from leaving, which they were attempting to do..

Yeaaah - about that.

And what exactly is the relevant part of that 190 page report? I'm not about to dig through it looking for what I don't know.

Interviews with officers involved in the incident indicate that they apparently felt that
they were surrounded by a hostile mob and that the use of pepper spray was necessary to
create a path for the officers and arrestees to leave the Quad. While there is some
support for this conclusion, a detailed review of the objective evidence undermines this
conclusion.

First, and foremost, the apparent reason for the officer and arrestees remaining on the
Quad after the tents were down was because there had been no arrangements made to
transport the arrestees from the Quad. The lack of timely decision-making by Lts. Pike
and to respond to this unplanned situation caused an escalation of an already
volatile situation.
There are a number of other factors that undermine the belief that there was no
alternative to use of pepper spray. Specifically, the following belie the conclusion:

was able to walk arrestees through the crowd to a waiting squad
car for transport to the Police Station;
was able to step over the line of seated protesters and walk
through the crowd to meet with the Davis PD who arrived to provide mutual aid
He led the Davis PD contingent back through the crowd to the protesters without
incident;
Lt. Pike’s actions and body language include stepping over the seated protesters
to get to their faces, a move that would not generally be undertaken with a hostile
crowd.
Approximately 20 minutes after the pepper spray was used, Lt. Pike and one
other officer returned to Quad without riot gear and asked protesters to remove
additional tents that had been erected. The tents were removed without incident.

On balance, there is little factual basis supporting Lt. Pike’s belief that he was trapped by
the protesters or that his officers were prevented from leaving the Quad. Further, there is
little evidence that any protesters attempted to use violence against the police. The Kroll
report did note that (officer) felt a protester was attempting to “attack” another officer
and they had a brief altercation.

Kroll concludes, “Considering all the available evidence - while recognizing that Kroll
investigators were not able to interview Lieutenant Pike to learn and report on his state
of mind at the moment he used the pepper spray - the deployment of pepper spray does
not appear to have been an objectively reasonable use of force.” The Task Force agrees.

On balance, there does not seem to be an objective, factual basis for Lieutenant Pike to have
believed that he was trapped or that his officers were prevented from leaving by the seated
protesters. Furthermore, there is no objective evidence available to Kroll that depicts any
attempt by the protesters to use violence.
Considering all the available evidence—while recognizing that Kroll investigators were not
able to interview Lieutenant Pike to learn and report on his state of mind at the moment he
used the pepper spray—the deployment of pepper spray does not appear to have been an
objectively reasonable use of force. This conclusion is buttressed by the facts that the MK-9
was not an authorized weapon under UCDPD guidelines and that UCDPD officers were not
trained in its use.

**Dreadclaw69**

Ouze wrote:

On balance, there does not seem to be an objective, factual basis for Lieutenant Pike to have
believed that he was trapped or that his officers were prevented from leaving by the seated
protesters. Furthermore, there is no objective evidence available to Kroll that depicts any
attempt by the protesters to use violence.
Considering all the available evidence—while recognizing that Kroll investigators were not
able to interview Lieutenant Pike to learn and report on his state of mind at the moment he
used the pepper spray—the deployment of pepper spray does not appear to have been an
objectively reasonable use of force. This conclusion is buttressed by the facts that the MK-9
was not an authorized weapon under UCDPD guidelines and that UCDPD officers were not
trained in its use.

Interesting. Who provided the MK-9? Was it his own personal device?

**Haight**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Meh, He was following orders, What ws he supposed to do? Nothing? Disobey his superiors?

Yes. Exactly that.

To keep the peace, which was not broken by a bunch of kids sitting passively on the ground. To protec, which no one was in danger, and serve - not via spraying college hippies in the face sitting on the ground in protest.

This guy is a disgrace to law enforcement, and it's ridiculous that they even settled with him. I would have kept fighting this guys spurious claims of workmans comp even if it cost more than to settle with him on general principle if i were the administration of UC Davis.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Um, What? The mindset is that a cop is supposed to follow orders or loose his job

No, not at all. Look up the term "police officer discretion".

Police Officers are allowed a wide berth of discretion in the discharge of their duties.

There's other ways of dispersing protesters than casually pepper spraying them at point blank range. This guy definitely stepped over the line, and was correctly fired.

Note my opinion would change the moment, the iota of a second, there was any unruly, violent, or dangerous behavior coming from the protesters. I'm not anti-cop at all, not by a longshot.

But in this case, this guy went too far.

**Da Boss**

Yeah, seriously. In both the military and the police, if your superior gives you an order which violates any laws and so on, you are not supposed to "just follow that order".

I've known plenty of policemen who have questioned their superiors, refused to do things they thought were wrong, etc. They didn't lose their jobs, though I will admit, petty superiors can make it unpleasant for them (giving them gakky shifts, making them work Christmas all the time, stuff like that).

Better to stand up and take some crap than follow a bogus order and get fired- which is what happened in this case.

Edit: Also, if the protesters were being unruly, it's STILL an officers job to keep the peace.

If they mass assault the police, okay, have at them. But that other stuff is no call for escalating to a violent response. It's never going to help the police in the long term.

(It is apparently pretty frightening to be a policeman in that situation though. My dad was there when a mob of republicans tried to storm the british embassy in Dublin in the seventies. He said you'd batter anything that came in arms reach that wasn't wearing a uniform- the mob had axes and petrol bombs, the police had slightly longer sticks than normal and were outnumbered 20 to 1. In that situation, my sympathies are much more on the side of the policeman.)

**Seaward**

Let's pretend harder that getting a little OC spray in the face is the end of the world.

**Easy E**

The last time we went around and around about this; it was a fun thread. Will we see a replay?

Also, I love when libertarians and small government types come to the defense of the Government and its laws about blocking sidewalks.

**cincydooley**

I really want to dig into this discussion, but I know anything I say is going to be horribly jaded by the fact that I hate Occupiers and think they're all spoiled, entitled brats.

But that's just me.

Do they use water hoses anymore for this kind of thing?

**infinite_array**

cincydooley wrote:
I really want to dig into this discussion, but I know anything I say is going to be horribly jaded by the fact that I hate Occupiers and think they're all spoiled, entitled brats.

But that's just me.

Do they use water hoses anymore for this kind of thing?

I'd usually agree about the nutters who took over Occupy Wall Street, but these weren't a bunch of smelly yuppies arguing that they were the '99 percent' while blogging on their iPads and laptops and banging on drums and doing spirit fingers.

They were students protesting a massive tuition hike, which is something I can understand. Forget peaceful protesting, I'd go nuts if my University suddenly announced that we'd see a 30% or more increase in tuition fees over the next year.

**Frazzled**

Good deal. He should not have been fired. he should have been given a medal. The order of the Golden Palm.

Five itnernetz for someone who knows that without internetting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Meh, He was following orders, What ws he supposed to do?

Historically, that defense has proven problematic.

Actually thats screaminingly incorrect. "He was following policy" is pretty much a get out of jail free card for police and school administrators.

**fishy bob**

Frazzled wrote:
Good deal. He should not have been fired. he should have been given a medal. The order of the Golden Palm.

He's going to Cannes!

**Frazzled**

brap wrong answer. Here's a hint. Look to famous musicals.

**Manchu**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Meh, He was following orders, What ws he supposed to do? Nothing? Disobey his superiors?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann

**sarpedons-right-hand**

@Frazz, I don't know any musicals....The only Order Of The Golden Palm that I know of is given to soldiers in the Belgian Armed Forces. There is an Order Of the Date Palm in the Iraqi Armed Forces, but thats a little OT I feel.

I can't believe this cop got $38,000 in compo because of 'Stress'...That sucks. Still, having seen the videos that have been posted here, I can understand why he sprayed the students. But I'm inclined to go with my first thought, Policeman doing his job. If those students where in breach of the peace somehow, and if he was feeling threatened, then I can understand why he did it. Fight or flight, right

**Manchu**

"Feeling threatened" is getting us everywhere in this country. Pepper spraying peaceful protesters, murdering black kids.

**Seaward**

Manchu wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann

Hopefully this means we'll never, ever see you claiming someone else is making a slippery slope argument again, because you absolutely lost the right with this.

**Frazzled**

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
@Frazz, I don't know any musicals....The only Order Of The Golden Palm that I know of is given to soldiers in the Belgian Armed Forces. There is an Order Of the Date Palm in the Iraqi Armed Forces, but thats a little OT I feel.

I can't believe this cop got $38,000 in compo because of 'Stress'...That sucks. Still, having seen the videos that have been posted here, I can understand why he sprayed the students. But I'm inclined to go with my first thought, Policeman doing his job. If those students where in breach of the peace somehow, and if he was feeling threatened, then I can understand why he did it. Fight or flight, right

Mr. Roberts. He received the order of the Golden Palm at the end by his fellow crewmates for his interdictions with the captain on their behalf. You cute youngins...

**motyak**

One person has both Zimmerman'd and Godwin'd the thread. That one person is a mod. Although I'm not sure if you can Godwin it if they have already been brought up...

**sarpedons-right-hand**

Manchu wrote:
"Feeling threatened" is getting us everywhere in this country. Pepper spraying peaceful protesters, murdering black kids.

Be thankful that your Police can use that gak. Our Police are hamstrung when it comes to things like this, thanks to Mr Blair and his Human 'Rights' Bill. Looking back at the London Riots, some Tear Gas and a few Water Cannons wouldn't have gone a miss. Instead, our Police are left just watching whilst little gaks run riot and do whatever the feth they want..... Yes, the protest was for a good reason, a 30% hike in prices sucks ass, we had much the same thing here when the Uni's all put up their prices, but sometimes these things are going to happen.

I would much rather our Police had the means to prevent civil disorder than having their hands tied and just having to allow it to happen.

**Manchu**

Eichmann's defense is the exact same used here to justify police brutality. Evoking some internet meme doesn't change that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
I would much rather our Police had the means to prevent civil disorder than having their hands tied and just having to allow it to happen.

I don't oppose police use of pepper spray generally. Spraying a bunch of kids sitting on the ground and then claiming they felt threatened or were just following orders is another matter.

**motyak**

Manchu wrote:
Eichmann's defense is the exact same used here to justify police brutality. Evoking some internet meme doesn't change that.

I wasn't disagreeing that it was a weak ass defence, just having a chuckle that one person did both. That isn't common.

**Seaward**

Manchu wrote:
Eichmann's defense is the exact same used here to justify police brutality. Evoking some internet meme doesn't change that.

Pepper spray is hardly police brutality.

Comparing a cop using it to a guy crucial to the implementation of the Holocaust is in incredibly poor taste, and can only come from a truly woeful lack of historical perspective.

**Manchu**

motyak wrote:
just having a chuckle that one person did both

I have no doubt that if Zimmerman had been some kind of police officer or security guard he, too, would have invoked some kind of SOP. This is why bullies like uniforms so much.

**Frazzled**

Kids wouldn't move and were blocking the path. Pepper spray beats a truncheon to the head I guess. If time was available hiring some monkeys to fling poo would have been better though.

Stupid kids. When I went to school in Cali we protested by marching around, not doing dumbass sitins. Remember Zombieland Rule #1: Cardio.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

motyak wrote:
One person has both Zimmerman'd and Godwin'd the thread. That one person is a mod. Although I'm not sure if you can Godwin it if they have already been brought up...

Does that mean it has been GodZimmered?

**whembly**

Eh...

I'd still think it's dumb to pepper spray the kids.

If you want it to hurt them... fine them... a couple of 100 buckaroos will hurt them college kids more than being sprayed.

**djones520**

whembly wrote:
Eh...

I'd still think it's dumb to pepper spray the kids.

If you want it to hurt them... fine them... a couple of 100 buckaroos will hurt them college kids more than being sprayed.

It builds character.

And maybe it'll teach them to raise their eventual off spring to not be such hippies.

**whembly**

djones520 wrote:
whembly wrote:
Eh...

I'd still think it's dumb to pepper spray the kids.

If you want it to hurt them... fine them... a couple of 100 buckaroos will hurt them college kids more than being sprayed.

It builds character.

And maybe it'll teach them to raise their eventual off spring to not be such hippies.

heh... good point.

**djones520**

On the plus side of things, I'm just glad I got through Basic Training before they finished building the gas chamber. No breathing tear gas for this Airman.

Now, if my eventual goal of becoming Law Enforcement takes place, I'm sure I'll have to do the pepper spray thing...