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So some buddies have decided to try out fantasy. I've played 40k for many years, but not a lick of WFB. I decided to go with the WE, mainly because of the aesthetics of the army. I'm not put off by the poor state they are in right now - I played Necrons for years during their "dark ages", and with the ebb and flow of GW, they'll get an update eventually.

I'm not entirely sure how to approach the army just because I've read a lot of conflicting info on it. I'm thinking of grabbing a couple of battle boxes as a core, throw a spellweaver and a few treemen in there, then I dunno, maybe a unit or two of wild riders.

A couple other things I'm not real sure of is when and to what degree I should really utilize the various command squad elements, how important is a BSB, which one to take, etc. Which lore do people tend to gravitate to? I like the idea of throwing a giant red dragon out of nowhere, but for all i know, it'll just die in a turn or so against most armies.

Anyway, looking for any thoughts you might throw my way. Thanks in advance.

Playable options are pretty limited.
You pretty much need a wizard lord to get a lore that doesn't suck.
Tree Kin and Treemen are really the only hammers that hold up in combat, though I have seen Branch Wraith spam, with lore of beasts work pretty well.

In all honesty, I'd use wood elf models and play with the dark elf or high elf rules until the new rules come out. Rumor has it that 9th edition isn't that far off, and all the books that aren't updated yet will get a quick update with the new rules.

-Matt

I know one guy who plays wood elves and a favoured trick of his is to get a big block of eternal guard and cast throne of vines followed by flesh to stone from the Life Lore.

Gives something like T6 or T7 elves when used correctly.

Situational yes, but nasty when it works!

I don't know much else about them other than that. At the rate GW is going they should see an update fairly soon though hopefully.

 rohansoldier wrote:
I know one guy who plays wood elves and a favoured trick of his is to get a big block of eternal guard and cast throne of vines followed by flesh to stone from the Life Lore.

Gives something like T6 or T7 elves when used correctly.

Situational yes, but nasty when it works!

I don't know much else about them other than that. At the rate GW is going they should see an update fairly soon though hopefully.

Yeah, and I know a guy who charges into combat with T3 elves, gets throne of vines up, and then I use my dispel scroll to take out his flesh to stone, and slaughter his over-priced elves.

-Matt

 rohansoldier wrote:

I don't know much else about them other than that. At the rate GW is going they should see an update fairly soon though hopefully.

If memory serves, the last page of the latest white dwarf gives a pretty big clue to that.

But s for Wood Elves currently, Double Flee Beasts is the way to go.

Double Flee beasts?

I believe thedarkavenger is referring to (1) the Lore of Beasts and (2) having enough units to flee from a charge reaction, then flee with another when he tries to re-direct the charge, leaving his unit stuck more or less where it started.

There are two ways to go about Wood Elves, from what I've seen:

- the first revolves around two blocks of Treekin. I haven't seen this build that much recently, however.

- lots of Glade Guard, Eagles, and characters on Eagles. This list seems most promising. Small units of Dryads, Glade Guard and Waywatchers, backed by a Treeman/some Treekin, as many Eagles as you can fit in, and a decent Lore of magic (Life seems to be the go-to when you're trying to win via shooting, while Beasts is good if you've got enough characters and/or Dryads and Treekin to benefit from the Augment spells).

Gotcha.

The second option seems to be where I'm heading. I'm not enamored with running mostly trees, but I do like the look of the dryads and while I hate GW's model for the treemen, Reaper makes a fantastic (imo) model to proxy. Tree-kin are just a bit too much (aesthetics and points wise).

Ogres are probably going to be the most common list I play as my best bud is playing them. That being the case, I don't see myself taking the waywatchers (as much as I like them) as they don't seem particularly useful vs monstrous-anything.

I f-ing hate the eagles, man



No seriously, I've always disliked the concept of giant eagles, but I think I can track down some solid wyverns or something to run as counts-as.

Hoo hoo! A "The Dude" reference!

Well, as for hating the Eagles, That's just, like, your opinion, man.

I have played Wood Elves off and on for years, and I think that (although their army book is obviously outdated, which you know), you have to go with their "fluffy" strengths. The army boxes are a good strategy, because I believe your core should not be Eternal Guard (who are overpriced and underwhelming in other ways) but Glade Guard. You need to utilize their ability to move and shoot at their full (and good) BS, and use the Fast Cavalry to harrass flanks, wittle down large units, and generally make slower enemies run around.

You have to play Guerrilla tactics--only attack when and where you choose (Deployment is key with Wood Elves, as if your units get isolated and caught in close combat, they'll die). Move and shoot, and try to plan how to draw enemy units in to ambush positions, where they can be hit by multiple units. Dryads are good for this--they are relatively strong, tough, and dish out 2 attacks. Their Ward Save doesn't work against magic, which is a major drawback. They also cause Fear, which is not as useful as it used to be, but can still be a huge factor.

I would go with Lore of Life, as the Throne of Vines Buffs other spells (Flesh to Stone is RIDICULOUS) to a ridiculous degree, and you can bring your (expensive) models back to life. IF you can be sure that your terrain will include woods, then the old point that the Wood Elves are the only army that can affect the actual Battlefield is still hugely important. In that case, you should have a second Wizard (level 2) to "tree surf" stuff around. You will also get your "free" 6 inch woods piece (model one up, so you always have it), so you can at least move that into people's way. So, like I already said, Deployment is hugely important, and so is Terrain.

I don't like Wild Riders that much--they're not durable, and their buffs are either-or. Tree Kin are basically Ogres, but with a Ward Save, and...more expensive. So I wouldn't go toe to toe with your buddy there. The Waywatchers' Killing Blow won't work against the Monstrous Infantry either.

Wardancers can be really cool--you just have to take enough of them to make their choice of "dance" as effective as possible. And don't get them shot up--hide them somewhere and use them as an ambushing unit, after your archers have shot the enemy up for 2 or 3 turns.

Tree Men are awesome--take 2 of them. They're Unbreakable, and can be a tarpit to allow those key "ambush" flank charges or to allow your Archers to escape.

So....I find Wood Elves really fun to play tactically. They are NOT a great "beginner" army, but you're not really a newbie. Think of them as Eldar, maybe. Best at shooting, and running away.

Anyway, good luck! I am personally hoping that White Dwarf picture was a hint, though I didn't see anything new in there... The fluff is good, and that's why I play the game. It really "ties the room together...."

You sir, have earned an exalt for a detailed post and Big L references

Much appreciated

A few comments on pantheralegionnare's advice:

- Life is indeed a good Lore. But don't bank on getting Vines with just a lvl4; it's not a sure thing.
Dwellers is a stupidly good spell. It snipes characters with horrific ease and trims S3 units down by half; the perfect answer to those big blocks that Wood Elves otherwise struggle with.
The only issue is, Earthblood, the magic missile, and Shield of Thorns are considered sub-par at best, and Regrowth is only okay when not boosted by the Throne.
On the upside, the Lore Attribute works well with Treekin/Treemen.

Beasts, on the other hand, is more consistent. The signature is fantastic for any units about to see close combat. Both magic missiles are useful; one is cheap and works well on chaff, while the other is more expensive and can target elite units and monsters. Savage and Pelt are both amazing (trying to deal with a S9 A9 Treeman Ancient is...not ideal), and the Curse offers fantastic synergy with Wood Elves. It's the spell that Tree Singing wishes it was.
Transformation is often looked down upon, but the way I see it: turn your lvl2 into a Hydra for the breath weapon. If you want your caster-monster to see combat, though, you'd better hope it doesn't last until your opponents turn (where he dispells it and kills your wizard).

- Treekin are most certainly not Ogres. For +35pts, you get +1WS +1S +1T, +1I, +2 armour, a 5+ Ward versus magic, and ItP.
6 Treekin versus 13 Ogres (both 390pts): Treekin do 8 wounds, Ogres do 3.1 Next turn, Treekin do 6.7, Ogres do 2.2. Third round, Treekin still throw out 6.7, Ogres do 2.
...Treekin rock. Especially considering that you've got access to Life (Regrowth) or Beasts (S6 T6).

- I'm not convinced on Wardancers. They're S4 on the charge, so they're like Dryads with +2WS and +1A, but -1T. Sure, they can get +1A/4+ Ward/-1A and Killing Blow, but you have to change dances every turn, and if you were using the 4+ Ward dance before, you're most likely not going to benefit too much from the +1A dance afterwards, and so on.
Oh, and they cost, what, 6pts/model more? And are Special? And are way more vulnerable to enemy shooting? No thank you.

- Just to be clear, Treemen are not Unbreakable. They're Stubborn. But with Ld8, they have just better than a 50% chance of sticking around. So I'd keep a BSB nearby.
If you ever go with an Ancient, though, I'd suggest the Annoyance of Netlings: the one thing in the Wood Elf book that's still too good.

Warpsolution wrote:
I believe thedarkavenger is referring to (1) the Lore of Beasts and (2) having enough units to flee from a charge reaction, then flee with another when he tries to re-direct the charge, leaving his unit stuck more or less where it started.

There are two ways to go about Wood Elves, from what I've seen:

- the first revolves around two blocks of Treekin. I haven't seen this build that much recently, however.

- lots of Glade Guard, Eagles, and characters on Eagles. This list seems most promising. Small units of Dryads, Glade Guard and Waywatchers, backed by a Treeman/some Treekin, as many Eagles as you can fit in, and a decent Lore of magic (Life seems to be the go-to when you're trying to win via shooting, while Beasts is good if you've got enough characters and/or Dryads and Treekin to benefit from the Augment spells).

Yes I am.

I recommend the latter list, without the treekin. That's because they're just...well, bad. T4, with no rerolls means that one bad round means they die. Yes, they're S5, but they are all too capable of spooning it.

I recommend dryads as the I6, S4 and 2 attacks apiece means that they can still fight other chaff and still win reliably. And they're under 100 points, and can be used for double flee purposes.

Treekin are T5, though. I think they're one of the few things in the book that are consistently worth their points.

Also, Dryads are Immune to Psychology, so they can't flee from charges. Unless you meant that they're the ones the Glade Guard are fleeing through?

Warpsolution wrote:
Treekin are T5, though. I think they're one of the few things in the book that are consistently worth their points.

Also, Dryads are Immune to Psychology, so they can't flee from charges. Unless you meant that they're the ones the Glade Guard are fleeing through?

Fair point on the Treekin, but they are not worth their points. They still struggle to kill anything, due to their tendency to whiff. I personally like fighting treekin, as I know it's an autowin for me. Short of pumping magic into them, they aren't worth taking.

And yes. That is how the double flee works. My mistake for miswording it.

Perhaps you could paint a picture for me on the deployment of the double flee. It looks like glade guard in front of dryads (which they then flee through when charged). What do you use to protect your flanks, and what do you use to actually finish off the units that get close? Looking at Ogres being my primary opponent at the moment, even 70 glade guard seem like they are going to have trouble making a real dent in most of the army, unless I'm missing something (entirely possible...in fact, probable )

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Perhaps you could paint a picture for me on the deployment of the double flee. It looks like glade guard in front of dryads (which they then flee through when charged). What do you use to protect your flanks, and what do you use to actually finish off the units that get close? Looking at Ogres being my primary opponent at the moment, even 70 glade guard seem like they are going to have trouble making a real dent in most of the army, unless I'm missing something (entirely possible...in fact, probable )

Say you deploy a unit of glade guard about 4 inches in front of dryads. The glade guard then flee a charge, they roll a 7 and pop out. Your opponent then doesn't roll an eleven, hits the dryads, and the glade guard get out of his charge range, and safely. Thus you have given up 96 points of dryads, to save 126 points of glade guard, as well as conserve 10 shots.

As for the damage of the list, you focus 60/70 glade guard on a single unit.

And the flanks, you have about 15 deployments. 3 dryads, 6 10 man glade guard units, 2/3 warhawks, 2 eagles and a 20 man glade guard unit. Your army protects it's flanks by being more mobile than anyone else.

70 Glade Guard means 35 hits at long range, 11.7 wounds against T4, and 7.8 unsaved versus heavy armour.
At close range, it's 46.7 hits, 23.4 wounds, 19.5 after saves.
So, assuming that each of your units gets to shoot once at each range (you'll get more), that's 27.3 wounds, or 9.1 Ogres.

@thedarkavenger: I still don't get your point on Treekin. They trash their points worth of Ogres without any help from magic. I just can't think of many units that would make me go, "oh, no! I got to keep my Treekin out of that combat, or they're toast".

What do you mean "their tendancy to whiff"? I mean, dice is dice. A 3, 4, or 5+ to hit is the same, no matter what unit. I guess they have a relatively high cost/attack...is that the kind of thing you're getting at?
If that is the case, I'd point out that wit T5, a 4+/5+, and 3 wounds each, they're not exactly dying in droves, either.

Thanks to @Warpsolution for the clarification (and mathhammer) on Treekin. If I'm honest, I only ever had 4 of the expensive metal models, so I never got to really "Block" them out. So, I totally yield my point, except to point out that they are expensive. They do sound like a heck of an Anvil, though, and in combination with the Glade Guard, it sounds like a pretty workable list.

Annoyance of Netlings is awesome, for sure.

I have also never used Lore of Beasts, so it was great to read about the uses of that Lore with the Wood Elves. So, great post, @Warpsolution!

Even I'm getting excited about getting my old Wood Elves out again!

Any time, comrade.

I would like to mention something about those awful models, though: I knew a guy who got his hands on the Games Workshop forest. With a surprisingly little amount of greenstuff, they became Treekin that both costed a lot less and looked awesome.

His Treeman was of similar make, but with a lot more work (he was at least 9" tall).

Cool suggestion! I actually think the LoTR Treebeard and other Ent models look pretty cool too. Would that be kosher at a tournament, as it's also a GW model? You'd have to change the base, but that's not much work. I think the "counts as" models are cool for sure.

I also had two OLD metal Treeman models, which were short and fat, and I used them as Treekin too, to get to a unit of 6. Angry, hungry trees--it's a cool concept for sure. And something I read on the "news and rumours" page indicated that the Wood Elves would be even more hostile and scary in their next army book, which is cool. I always wanted to do a Drycha all-trees army, but again, the Glade Guard and their shooting is one of the strengths of the WE.

Now...another thing to think about is the possibility of Forest Dragons coming out with a new model (perhaps a combo "big" model with a Dragon and another new beastie?). I know that this is the wrong forum to be discussing rumours, but this is not a rumour, just a hope. That would really change up a WE list. Of course, since it doesn't exist, it doesn't help you at all, OP--sorry!

Anyway...cool stuff! Shoot them, and then smash the survivors with Tree kin! Sounds like a plan to me.

I got a couple of these guys for my treemen. The Bones version is only about $7.00

Nice! I have quite a few Reaper miniatures in my High Elves and Wood Elves collections, in fact! I even converted a Wood Elf spellweaver on a Unicorn with the help of one of their models.