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I don't have Wrath or Colossals. I was just going by the army book entries.

 Manchu wrote:
Maybe I should clarify. I am wondering more about the sort of fluff that could back up why a faction would fight another one in game. That seems pretty rare, outside of Cryx.

There's been rumours of a 'Rebellion'-themed book for a while now. Obviously PP isn't opposed to it, now that we have our first cross-faction Warcaster with Commander Sturgis coming through the Tactics Kickstarter. Every factions have potential for treason/rebellion.

Khador - Umbrey

Cygnar - 4th Army, the Laddermore patriarch, in particular, supports Vinters, and has been undermining the defense of Cygnar for quite a while.

Cryx - Everyone, really. The rule against Iron Lichs murdering each other is, in itself, a joke. What matters is that Iron Lichs murder each other in ways that do not disturb the Dragonfather's plans. So if Asphyxious managed to finally cap Terminous, he must be sure he's ready to take over his responsibilities and tasks, while still fulfilling his.

Protectorate - Feora leading the Temple of the Flame in rebellion would be the most likely to happen, but it's still doutfull, IMO. Nowadays, you need the Harbinger's blessing to become Hierarch, and I don't see how Feora could even hope to manage that. Even with her temper and ambition, she has to know that rebelling would simply lead to a very abrupt visit from the High Reclaimer if she's lucky, or a very lenghty one with the High Executionner if she isn't.

Rhul - Easy, Rhuls fight with each other at all time. This isn't much known, because the fluff makes the dwarves to be allies of the good guys, but their internal business-dealings is usually of the ''with extreme prejudice'' kind. Contract dispute between Clans are resolved through mass-duels supervised by a state-sponsored paladin order. Often, a call for bids is synonymous with localised civil war.

Retribution - Easy again, the Retribution are basically the Iron Kingdoms equivalent of the KKK. The majority of Iosan elves currently support the Retribution, but it would only take Scyrah waking up long enough to tell her children how stupidly moronic they are acting for the vast majority of elves to dissociate themselves from the Retribution, and it's likely one or more of the major Houses would start cleaning house.


Oh and the colour scheme for the 4th army is mostly the same as Cygnar, but with a much darker blue.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
There's been rumours of a 'Rebellion'-themed book for a while now.

Do you mean a book focused on rules for two sides of the same faction? That would be most welcome from a rules and a fluff perspective.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
There's been rumours of a 'Rebellion'-themed book for a while now.

Do you mean a book focused on rules for two sides of the same faction? That would be most welcome from a rules and a fluff perspective.

Yes, or perhaps simply giving us rebellious Epic Casters with cross-factions theme lists, as it is with the latest Magnus version.

For example, Vladimir4, Sovereign of Umbrey, could remain a Khadoran caster, but give him a theme list ''Umbrean Secessionists'. PP could easily have more Umbrean models by simply selling upgrade packs for already existing models, as they've done in the past. Having a double-sided two-handed axes package for Iron Fangs mini would give us a very ''umbrean'' unit fluff-wise.

Even worse than "Umbrean Secessionists," how about something amounting to "Laellese Freedom Fighters"? I don't think either option is in the cards for Vlad, however, especially if Zevanna Agha has any say in the matter.

 Manchu wrote:
Even worse than "Umbrean Secessionists," how about something amounting to "Laellese Freedom Fighters"? I don't think either option is in the cards for Vlad, however, especially if Zevanna Agha has any say in the matter.

Not so much anymore. There was fluff pieces released before Superiority (I think) where an Umbrean rebellion movement had petitionned Vlad for support, but it didn't have a follow up, at least not one I know of.

Zevanna Agha, on the other hand, doesn't have much love for the current khadoran administration. She's the soul of the land, and is seemingly a lot closer to the Umbrean people than to the Khardic people. She stated outright (in Escalation, I think), that Vlad would have to bleed Khador before he could make it glorious again. That is also a bit of fluff that is currently unresolved.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Even worse than "Umbrean Secessionists," how about something amounting to "Laellese Freedom Fighters"? I don't think either option is in the cards for Vlad, however, especially if Zevanna Agha has any say in the matter.

Not so much anymore. There was fluff pieces released before Superiority (I think) where an Umbrean rebellion movement had petitionned Vlad for support, but it didn't have a follow up, at least not one I know of.

Zevanna Agha, on the other hand, doesn't have much love for the current khadoran administration. She's the soul of the land, and is seemingly a lot closer to the Umbrean people than to the Khardic people. She stated outright (in Escalation, I think), that Vlad would have to bleed Khador before he could make it glorious again. That is also a bit of fluff that is currently unresolved.

Not entirely sure where you're getting that last bit, considering Zevanna Agha pretty explicitly have the Empress her blessing.

Tarot wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Even worse than "Umbrean Secessionists," how about something amounting to "Laellese Freedom Fighters"? I don't think either option is in the cards for Vlad, however, especially if Zevanna Agha has any say in the matter.

Not so much anymore. There was fluff pieces released before Superiority (I think) where an Umbrean rebellion movement had petitionned Vlad for support, but it didn't have a follow up, at least not one I know of.

Zevanna Agha, on the other hand, doesn't have much love for the current khadoran administration. She's the soul of the land, and is seemingly a lot closer to the Umbrean people than to the Khardic people. She stated outright (in Escalation, I think), that Vlad would have to bleed Khador before he could make it glorious again. That is also a bit of fluff that is currently unresolved.

Not entirely sure where you're getting that last bit, considering Zevanna Agha pretty explicitly have the Empress her blessing.

In Escalation, Vladimir goes alone to fight a cryxian processing plant because the toxic emanations from the plant would kill all his soldiers, while his sorcery can protect him. He is surrounded by Bane thralls and knights, and despite beating them, is gravely wounded. He survives only because Zevanna Agha takes him into a nearby cavern, heals him up and tells him that he is destined to either kill Asphyxious or the Harbinger. He then spends most of the timeline for Apotheosis re-forging his broken swords in one.

But while he was in coma, Zevanna tells him that he must not die, that he is destined to make Khador pay a dear price in blood, and that only after that is done Khador will be glorious again.

Zavanna giving her blessing to the current leader of Khador is a tradition, and given the terrible track record of most Khadoran kings prior to Ayn, really doesn't mean much.

 gunslingerpro wrote:
I remember the collossals being taken from her guard as a tense event.

My thoughts as well. I'm sure she would have no issue with the current Hierarch suddenly dying. She seems more concerned with political power for herself than anything else.

She and Severius had a poor relationship prior to his ascendance to the Hierarchy.

Her ambitions are also compounded by Kreoss. Who was just basically made Regent over the whole Protectorate. Only Severius, and possibly the Harbinger, have greater authority.

The Heirarch has always historically been a Scrutator prior to his promotion. If any non-scrutator is eligible for the position it would be Kreoss long before Feora. The Harbinger would see to that.

And if Kreoss becomes Heirarch, Feora is definitely never becoming Heirarch. She'd be an old woman by the time Kreoss died of old age, heck he could outlive her.

 Grey Templar wrote:
She and Severius had a poor relationship prior to his ascendance to the Hierarchy.

Her ambitions are also compounded by Kreoss. Who was just basically made Regent over the whole Protectorate. Only Severius, and possibly the Harbinger, have greater authority.

The Heirarch has always historically been a Scrutator prior to his promotion. If any non-scrutator is eligible for the position it would be Kreoss long before Feora. The Harbinger would see to that.

And if Kreoss becomes Heirarch, Feora is definitely never becoming Heirarch. She'd be an old woman by the time Kreoss died of old age, heck he could outlive her.

As an additional note, in Colossals when Severius named Kreoss Intercessor, he effectively named him the high-commander of ALL of the Protectorate's military assets, which would include the Flameguard. Given their contentious relationship, it is highly probable that Feora will interpret this as a slight against her, since Severius has effectively knocked her down a level on the totem pole. Should Severius die, even with the Harbinger siding with Kreoss a civil war in the Protectorate is all but certain, with the Flameguard backing Feora and the Exemplars and Paladins backing Kreoss.

Its actually interesting to think of where loyalties would fall should the Protectorate go to war with itself. Vindictus has no love of Feora, like Severius, and would likely side with Kreoss. The Harbinger would follow whatever her divine mandate is, but would once again likely side with Kreoss. Alternatively, she could remain neutral throughout the affair. The Testament would follow whomever the Harbinger does, since both share a divine connection. Reznik knows that Kreoss hates him, but the man is loyal, particularly to Severius, and where he would end up would likely depend on whether or not Kreoss would have him. Thrya is Flameguard, and would side with Feora, and Amon is something of a wild-card, since I know little about him. So we could potentially be looking at Kreoss and Vindictus on one side, Feora and Thrya on the other, with Amon and Reznik as wild cards and the Harbinger and the Testament as neutral parties. Would make for an interesting campaign or scenario. Perhaps in the future PP will release cards for a 'civil war' campaign in an alternate future, similar to those cards they released with warcasters having different alliances.

Ehhh, its not that Kreoss hates Reznik. I don't think he hates anybody who is pious and zealous for the Creator, he simply doesn't approve of his methods.


If Feora does start a Civil War, its is very unlikely she'd get even a majority of the Flameguard to follow her. Sure, she is their leader, but nobody in their right mind would oppose the Harbinger.

It would be her against the confirmed mouthpiece of God, along with every one of the Protectorate's major leaders. Feora only has a couple Visgoths on her side, and I doubt even they would side with her in open conflict.

She doesn't have the luxury of an alternative interpretation of Menoth's will. Her opponents have the Harbinger. She'd have nothing but her naked ambition to prop her cause up.


So really she has no choice other than either to leave the protectorate with her closest supporters or to work on her own power from within(and there's nowhere to go up to from where she is at)

She wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of actually waging a war against her opponents in the Protectorate. Not when her opponent is God himself. The Flameguard would do many things for Feora, but oppose the Avatar and Harbinger is NOT one of them.

She might sit pretty in Sul for a while, but the instant Kreoss and the Harbinger approached the Walls and demanded Feora be turned over there wouldn't be a moments hesitation, Menoth himself wouldn't get a faster response. And then Reznik and Vindictus would have a field day picking apart the Flameguard command for Heresy.

I think Grey Templar has the right on Feora.

As for Zevanna Agha, if she was interested in the changing the throne she's working with the right guy. Vladimir's family ruled Khador before the Vanars, after all.

Yep. Feora's not looking to start a civil war, she's looking to improve her political standing. The problem is that she's overstepping her bounds by doing the Heirarch's job without consulting him and making alliances and political agreements on her own. She may be protecting and watching the homestead, but that doesn't mean she's in charge, which is how she's acting.

She's looking towards the political points she gets if she helps Vinter succeed and perhaps being named head of the Western/Cygnaran arm of the church by Vinter.

 malfred wrote:


Lylyth has been questioning her allegiance to Everblight and even removed
her helmet and waited for death. I think she's back on full resolve now.

The only reason why Lilith was questioning her allegiance was because Everblight, sensing that Lylyth's death was close, retreated from her mind, giving her some semblance of free will again. As soon as Everblight saw that Lylyth was safe again he reinstated his influence and Lylyth's loyalty and devotion was restored.

With the possible exception of Vayl, I don't believe that is possible for any Legion Warlock to go against Everblight's will ans wishes, he is too ingrained in their entire personality through their individual pieces of the Athanc.

 Manchu wrote:
As for Zevanna Agha, if she was interested in the changing the throne she's working with the right guy. Vladimir's family ruled Khador before the Vanars, after all.

The way I see it, Zevanna is the soul of the land while Vladimir is the blood of the people. Both of them have a unique connection to Khador that none other display. I don't think the Old Witch intends on playing kingmaker, especially since Vladimir is rumoured to be the last of his line, but she certainly intends something.

As for Circle, many of the potents and other high ranking druids have very shift alliances, and will occasionally fight each other to force a shift in those alliances. Sort of a "No, your village fights for me, not that guy" sort of thing, where the other druid disagrees and backs the "rebels".
Otherwise, the Omnipotents will often send potents after each other to punish them for disobeying orders or doing things counter to the overall strategy. That happens a lot since the Omnipotents don't really function as one voice at all.

Recent examples were Krueger being tried for treason mostly on Morvahna's accusation. Morvy was pissed because he has a tendency to steal the loyalty of her lieutenants like Morraig and Kromac, and so she saw him as weakening her efforts to fight Everblight. Krugs is acquitted when Wurmwood steps in and says "He's cool. Shut up." Mohsar wanted Krugs dead as well.
Morv then later joins forces with Kreuger in Gargantuans to stop some Everblight plans; apparently they are still running around with the athanc or something.

That's about it for direct conflict in the fluff. There is mention that potents might quibble over territory, especially where ley line nexuses are.