Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tolkiens Middle Earth--it is by far the most developed and has the most well laid and elaborate bcakground for both RPG and wargamming..startign with the 7 or 8 manuscripts by the original author which go into great detail ..Iron Crowns take, , Turbines Take, The Various movies and their more recent remakes, Several Wargames and RPG's exist for Tolkiens world..lots of official background material exists already ..

Followed by Forgotten Realms (DnD)

Then Traveller ( Extensive Background material available both Strategic and tactical wargames plus very rich RPG available) Very solid background.

 Bomster wrote:
The Warrior novels kept me on a constant level of annoyance while reading them, on the other hand. I don't usually want to punch fictional characters in the face, and even less so if they're obviously meant to be the protagonists and heroes from the writer's POV - but I found Hanse Davion and his cronies to be the most unsympathetic, bigoted and sanctimonious idiots I've ever read about, and it was really grating to find them constantly portrayed in the most positive light imaginable...

That's actually one of the things I liked about Btech - aside from a few scenery-chewing villains (looking at you, Max Liao), most of the powerful leaders were jerks with some sympathetic perspectives, to one degree or another. They've had 300 years of interstellar oligarchy and essentially unlimited personal power - of COURSE they're all jerks. And there's no obvious way to pick between, say House Marik and House Kurita for who "should" be in charge of a newly-formed Star League. Heck, even ComStar, sinister manipulators though they are, has an apparently-noble purpose, so long as you're not in their way.

Viewed from a certain detached perspective, 3020-3050 BattleTech is an awful lot like the Song of Ice & Fire (complete with a resourceful dwarf (Clovis), though admittedly with fewer sex scenes).

(Aside: the good news is that Stackpole's writing did get better over time.)

Can't comment on Battletech as I don't know it, but Middle Earth should have been an option.

It's well fleshed out, certainly more than 40K, with histories, events and even songs and languages. It's something of the grandfather of fantasy and as such I think it suffers from people feeling not worthy enough to add to the universe like they do with universes based off movies and games.

Middle Earth does suffer from a lack of information about lands beyond the realms of Gondor and its allies, and it pretty much ignores females. Other than that it gives a solid foundation from the creation of the world (do any other fantasy realms have creation stories?) through to the current timeline of the narrative.

40K is swiss cheese. There is a ton of data about small parts of the imperium like the astartes, but not a lot is known about how the Imperium of man came to be. We know very little about common things like hive cities, what people eat (what exactly is a grox?), mutants, size of the Imperium compared to losses from nids, demons etc, what the High Lords do and so on. Lots of holes in the background and in consistency.

Battletech has one of the best developed backstorys that i know. It has a good timeline and it is, more importantly, unchanging. It also has reasonable explenations for the things that happen.

40K does have an, argueably, more extensive backstory, but at the rate it changes i just have to knock it down.

Why isn't middle earth on the list?DnD,warhammer Fantasy(And by extension 40k)would never have existed without it!

People have said Lord of the Rings, and the reason why it, much like Star Trek and Star Wars are universes with games set in them, and not game universes.

But then why are SW and trek on the list?

Because it was a poll made by a human.

Don't understand.I have a feeling I may need a rope and you to stand near underneath that tree.Its just a feeling.

Da krimson barun wrote:
Don't understand.I have a feeling I may need a rope and you to stand near underneath that tree.Its just a feeling.

Is it a human feeling?

Re Middle Earth though, isn't there a LOTR game? And a Hobbit game? I'm sure I didn't imagine that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are Star Wars and Trek games too.

I'll go out and nominate Glorantha. Sure it may not have that many novels written about, but the mythology of the world is enormous. There are hundreds of deities player characters can worship & perform quests for, with elaborate details of the mythology, history, cult ecology, etc. I know no other setting which comes anywhere close in that respect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To elaborate, in my opinion universes like Star Wars, Star Trek or Middle Earth aren't "gaming universes" per se and probably shouldn't be included in this discussion. Their originators did not envision them being used for gaming and they have features which reduce their utility for gaming purposes (for example in case of Middle Earth and Star Wars, notably "closed" nature of the timeline).

Those fictional universes typically have canon author (or authors) whose text is sacred, then there are "extended universe writers" whose contributions are often viewed as kind of "fan fiction" and if it contradicts the original author, it is ignored. For example, Krynn has many novels written about it, but original authors have stated that many of the prequel/spinoff stories did not actually happen in the 'real' timeline. So is their existence "developing" the backstory? Also, if we are talking about GAMING universes, then we should review the background material from the perspective of gamer: many universes may have tons of spinoff novels, but their utility for a gamer is often close to zero.

Backfire wrote:
Also, if we are talking about GAMING universes, then we should review the background material from the perspective of gamer: many universes may have tons of spinoff novels, but their utility for a gamer is often close to zero.

I'll go ahead and disagree. How do you measure the utility of inspiration? I've also seen many GM/DMs put in characters from novels into their campaigns as wandering NPCs/quest givers/what have you.

While the novels may not have the most utility for WARgaming(even then, people tend to like reproducing their favorite characters in armies and base scenarios on scenes in the books), RPG based novels tend to be an addition font of info for campaigns.

I mean, how many "When is X going to get a model/rules" posts and threads pop up in the 40K and Fantasy discussions? I can't count how many times I've seen people wonder when Ciaphas Cain is getting rules.

In this order:
1.) Star Wars
2.) BattleTech/MechWarrior
3.) Forgotten Realms

People who don't think Star Wars has as much in depth detail on systems and technology just haven't read the whole depth of information available for Star Wars. Just like BattleTech you can find out the make, model and manufacturer of the sytems on most common starships, and additional information from the old West End Games RP products(literally chocked full of information in good detail).

 Platuan4th wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Also, if we are talking about GAMING universes, then we should review the background material from the perspective of gamer: many universes may have tons of spinoff novels, but their utility for a gamer is often close to zero.

I'll go ahead and disagree. How do you measure the utility of inspiration? I've also seen many GM/DMs put in characters from novels into their campaigns as wandering NPCs/quest givers/what have you.

While the novels may not have the most utility for WARgaming(even then, people tend to like reproducing their favorite characters in armies and base scenarios on scenes in the books), RPG based novels tend to be an addition font of info for campaigns.

After GM'ing roleplaying games for many years, I disagree with your disagreement. In my opinion, fiction is not the best inspiration for gaming because most fiction is centered around a plot, which tends to be horribly contrived if you start really think about it...I do know that many GM's attempt to re-enact their favourite books/movies in campaigns (guilty of that myself sometimes) but it just tends not to work since RPG's are open-ended and players have freedom of action. Unless, of course, you horribly railroad everything...you may remember that webcomic which parodies someone trying to run LOTR as an RPG campaign? It's very educational.

Also, much of the fiction is not necessarily that useful for a gamer. "Lord of the Rings" for example, is not terribly good as a source material for RPG's. Since in the book, characters do their utmost to travel uninhabited lands and avoid contact with populace, leaving you the impression that Middle-Earth is a desolate wasteland with only Shire being some sort of strange utopia isolated from everything.

I went with battletech. not being too familiar with anything else but 40k on the list presented was a big factor.

I've seen b-tech actually evolve over the years and truly expand their fiction/history with each edition. 40k kinda just hits a reset button every so often, for example the eye of terror campaign was to influence the game, and it seemed to till the last edition. now with the 6th ed. it's as if the campaign never happened.

the crew at catalyst took the clicky game history and worked in rather nicely since it was deemed official by wizards of the coast. as someone pointed out earlier they also didn't invalidate older fiction or mechs as the years went by which is huge for me and several friends having our 20+ year old figs being legal.

rosco60559 wrote:

the crew at catalyst took the clicky game history and worked in rather nicely since it was deemed official by wizards of the coast. as someone pointed out earlier they also didn't invalidate older fiction or mechs as the years went by which is huge for me and several friends having our 20+ year old figs being legal.

That's definitely something I appreciate in the continuity and constant progression of the BT universe.. I don't find the novels done for the Mechwarrior game to be quite as good as those done for Battletech, but they are extensive.. Even though Mechwarrior takes place in the 3100's, you could see that after it came out, the Battletech fluff began to slowly incorporate it. Some of the new MW designs showed up in Tech Readouts (TRO) 3075, and then more in 3085, and now the Tech Readout and sourcebooks for 3145, have almost entirely incorporated the Mechwarrior developments into the Battletech universe.

I will admit that I'm more than a bit out of date on Battletech's backstory. I think it always seemed a bit shallow due to a lo of the amterial seeming to be one-offs for worlds, but I do remember the early Clan novels had a lot of detail.

I'll say Call of Cthulhu

simply because the whole idea of the mythos that developed between Lovecraft, Howard and Smith was that they (or anybody else) could pick and choose bits to include in their own stories

so anything with the Necronomicon, or Cthulhu, or Unspreklichen Kulten (I'm bound to have spelt that wrong) or eldritch horrors from before human existed that will eventually return is part of the Mythos and therefor the CoC world

(and because I love CoC)

If I have to take a slightly narrower view I'd have to go for Battletech or Lord of the Rings/Middle Earth (ICE put out a frighteningly large amount of supplementary material over and above Tolkeins stuff and the more recent games)

I actually don;t like a super developed world. I want one that gives me some guidelines to work around and let's me fill in a lot of the details myself.

I think 40K is great for that, as is Star Wars. Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk not so much.

Of course, that isn't really the question.

I wouldn't consider Star Wars or Star Trek to be gaming universes, since they're not. They're fictional universes that have had games developed for them.

Seriously.Why is the lotr not on the list?I demand a reason Eilf.

Da krimson barun wrote:
Seriously.Why is the lotr not on the list?I demand a reason Eilf.

Chill. It has been explained. Maybe not by Eilif, and maybe we don't know which reason it is of the few that have been given, but they are all perfectly reasonable. Pick one and chill.

 Easy E wrote:
I actually don;t like a super developed world. I want one that gives me some guidelines to work around and let's me fill in a lot of the details myself.

I think 40K is great for that, as is Star Wars. Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk not so much.

Of course, that isn't really the question.

This is my opinion as well. I describe it as information versus answers. A gaming universe should be open-ended in many, many, many respects, allowing the players the freedom to shape the specifics of the world to their liking without running afoul of cannon too easily. Forgotten Realms is fantastically detailed thanks to being a cash cow milked for decades whose milk comes from developing the setting in more and more detail. You cannot throw a rock in Toril without it bouncing off of a piece of cannon and hitting you in the face.

For me, the quintessential information versus answers setting is In Nomine by SJ Games (I am biased by my personal experience though). In the In Nomine setting you're given a ton of information, but very little is sacred (pun intended), even down to the nature of Heaven and Hell. Is Heaven just another Ethereal realm? Maybe, maybe not. Here is some evidence that could support both ideas. Here are some people who think one way and some people who think the other way. That is the difference between information and answers.

Eberon, is a great setting for information versus answers when it comes to D&D. It was designed almost specifically to emphasize an information versus answers style of setting design. This makes Eberon very playable, in my opinion.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da krimson barun wrote:
Seriously.Why is the lotr not on the list?I demand a reason Eilf.

Because it isn't very detailed. A ton of it was locked safe in the mind of Tolkein. The fictional universe has a lot of broad stroke information and a lot of things that make it seem very grounded, like developed languages and genealogies, but Middle Earth is at its core a mythic setting. It is suggestive without being specific, and there is not a lot of material related to it in comparison to a fictional setting like Forgotten Realms. Middle Earth may seem more "real" than Toril, but it is not more extensively developed.

Its a hard call between D+D, 40k and battletech for me.
I would not call either LOTR, star trek or star wars a "gaming universe", they were around before games were made in them.

Da krimson barun wrote:
Seriously.Why is the lotr not on the list?I demand a reason Eilf.

I dunno.

Go ahead and check "other". That's why it's there.

I don't get why people are trying to put an artificial distinction between universes, as to whether they are gaming or not. By definition, a universe with games in is a gaming universe - and in the case of Star Wars, at least, it has probably been developed more by the games than the original films.

I think that, while I believe that the Middle Earth universe is something that fantasy writers should aspire to creating (with all its made up languages and backgrounds and whatnot) as a gaming universe it's very limited. There's a clear-cut division and background on why, for example, Rohan and Gondor won't go to war with each other. If you want to recreate a battle, like the Last Alliance or something, then yes, it's good, but some scenarios that players could devise are fairly outrageous in terms of background compared to, well, anything else. You could explain that the Empire are fighting Empire because there's a civil war, for example. The First Age is perhaps slightly better, and there is a bit of scope for elves fighting elves (for example when Feanor fights with the Teleri when they won't lend him their ships or something like that) but even so, there are clear cut divisions between groups of people. And the chances of Christopher Tolkien licensing that out is very minimal.

In terms of gaming universes, I enjoy the Privateer Press stuff, because it seems like one gigantic soap opera, even if I'm not quite as fond of the game. The 40k universe seems a bit too sprawling in size for its own good.