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 Rommel44 wrote:

And Thud, not trying to single you out but again, you play Tau all the time and yet someone earlier pointed out that Tau players just don't see it or wont admit it that there Army is hard to fight due to the rules that made shooting even better. I have beaten the Tau a number of times, but they are extremely frustrating and boring to play against oveall.

Uhm, I'm not a Tau player.

I will be, once I get my Farsight book in the mail, but that's more of a modelling project and will be as far from OP as you could possibly get with Tau (super-fluffy Farsight Enclaves).

I personally spent 3 and a half months painting my army of dark angels before I ever took it into a store. Those nights when you're going to play, just don't go and paint your models dude.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/558656.page

Lets take it over here guys, I don't want to derail this thread.

Back to tau, I think the other problem is that tournaments are usually lighter on terrain and Tau have obvious advantages and counters to nearly everything that you can squeeze into a standard list. You can still out fight them but you need to be smarter about it.

 Very Superstitious wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine

I don't care about winning, I care about having fun. Having my fluffy army crushed by triptide or any other competitive list is absolutely no fun for me. So don't whine when I don't feel like playing against a powergaming list and say no to playing you.

I have to ask this. What is a "Fluffy" army. Because everything in the codex is fluff. Tau do use riptides, they are fluff.

Reanimation protocol is - edited by insaniak. The language filter is there for a reason -

Tau firepower is way too good for the price afforded.

Seriously, when a squad of Stealth Suits eats up half a blob of Cultists and we're paying about the same price, there is a problem.

That said, the fix for the Tau is simple: MAKE THEM MORE EXPENSIVE. Same with the Necrons.

Getting tired of playing Kill Team against a Necron player whose throwing 20 damn whatevers at my 6 Chosen and they keep getting back up. At least in a fire fight with Tau, they have the good decency to die when I roll a 6 through their fxcking eye piece. ><

Yeah pretty much anything you can take is fluffy as a game represents a blink of time on a battlefield. If we really wanted to do fluffy you'd have 10,000pts of space marines vs 1000pts of guard at there main munitions depot that causes rules for remainder of the 9000pts of guardsmen to have shortages on food and ammo.

Fluff games are carefully played and narrated, pick up games are pretty much whatever you got, and tournaments you are looking to bring the most efficient. So you cant really be surprised when you take a knife to a gun fight. Plus fluffy armies usually means self imposed rules and restrictions, you cant expect everyone to cater to that.

I 100% back Nym's comments in this thread.

People are no way obliged to play against someones quadtide, IG rain of pain or triple drakes or whatever unless they go to a tournament or whatever.

"Competitive" 40k is not the only 40k around, some people just want to enjoy themselves and if that involves not facing your cheese then deal or go play someone else - just like they are doing when they refuse to play against you.

Personally, I ask "casual or serious" before each game, and I make sure potential opponents are 100% clear that I'm bringing a list of whichever type before we start.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Tau firepower is way too good for the price afforded.

Seriously, when a squad of Stealth Suits eats up half a blob of Cultists and we're paying about the same price, there is a problem.

Wait, what?

Are you complaining about STEALTH SUITS being OP?

With the other guys talking about cover-ignoring Riptides and Buffcommanders and what-have-you, I could at least see where they're coming from, even if I disagree strongly, but Stealth Suits?

Now you're just taking the piss.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I 100% back Nym's comments in this thread.

People are no way obliged to play against someones quadtide, IG rain of pain or triple drakes or whatever unless they go to a tournament or whatever.

"Competitive" 40k is not the only 40k around, some people just want to enjoy themselves and if that involves not facing your cheese then deal or go play someone else - just like they are doing when they refuse to play against you.

Personally, I ask "casual or serious" before each game, and I make sure potential opponents are 100% clear that I'm bringing a list of whichever type before we start.

Yup, the difference for me there is that I will leave the movement tactics at home (unless they start pulling them) and I will help with your rules and stuff you forget. In a tournament I will wreck you using every tactic I can and will let you be responsible for your mistakes.

Thud wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Tau firepower is way too good for the price afforded.

Seriously, when a squad of Stealth Suits eats up half a blob of Cultists and we're paying about the same price, there is a problem.

Wait, what?

Are you complaining about STEALTH SUITS being OP?

With the other guys talking about cover-ignoring Riptides and Buffcommanders and what-have-you, I could at least see where they're coming from, even if I disagree strongly, but Stealth Suits?

Now you're just taking the piss.

Noooo, I'm a new player who has been shot to Please don't bypass the language filter like this.Reds8n by shooting. Yes, Riptides, Buffcommanders and all that stuff the pro's know all about is frustrating, but for a new jack like me, when just Stealth Suits can eat up half of your troop choice, that's bad. I also didn't know I was "complaining" necessarilly, as much as I was joining the conversation.

I, also, apparently have a radically drastic way of fixing this Shooting Spam session that apparently is also a completely newbie suggestion (based on the responses I got last time I suggested this) however, the problem I've had with shooting hasn't been getting into Charge Range, but actually completing the damn charge with sh!t like Overwatch and Supporting Fire. So, the way I (in my head) got around this for my Chaos Space Marines was a larger Dirge Caster (8 in instead of 6 in).

And terrain. Terrain is probably the most important thing needed to beating down a shooting match. It's how I get around. Of course, pro's tell me that I'm playing on boards with more terrain than normal, so go figure.

Guess I can't have an opinion any which way, huh?

RELAX GAMERS. IT IS A GAME AFTER ALL.

Yeah cultists have a 6+ armor save, so they're bound to die, I mean no save against a bolter after all.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Noooo, I'm a new player who has been shot to see above. Reds8n by shooting. Yes, Riptides, Buffcommanders and all that stuff the pro's know all about is frustrating, but for a new jack like me, when just Stealth Suits can eat up half of your troop choice, that's bad. I also didn't know I was "complaining" necessarilly, as much as I was joining the conversation.

One Stealth Suit costs more points than seven Cultists. For the same points as a minimum squad you can have a unit of 20 Cultists (including the squad leader dude).

Stealth Suits are also armed with anti-light infantry weapons.

You shouldn't really be surprised that they killed a bunch of your cannon fodder.

Guess I can't have an opinion any which way, huh?

This ain't my first rodeo, cowboy.

You get to have as many opinions as you want, but that doesn't mean people will agree with them.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Very Superstitious wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine

I don't care about winning, I care about having fun. Having my fluffy army crushed by triptide or any other competitive list is absolutely no fun for me. So don't whine when I don't feel like playing against a powergaming list and say no to playing you.

I have to ask this. What is a "Fluffy" army. Because everything in the codex is fluff. Tau do use riptides, they are fluff.

To me at least, a fluffy army is one that has a specific theme around it that really defines how the entire army is played.

I love playing my Ravenwing/Deathwing army. It isn't optimal because of the ridiculous amount of ap2 that is in the game now, but still a blast to play and it really feels like I am doing Dark Angels things. It's high risk, mediocre reward but an absolute blast to play and play against, from what I have been told. Spamming three of a single unit like a riptide or a heldrake just seems to me more of a powergaming move than a fluff one. Yeah riptides are there in the codex but it also says they are a very rare thing. Fielding 3+ riptides just isn't fluff friendly. I honestly don't even mind heldrake spam that much from a fluff perspective, I just dislike how they toast my bikes.

Different strokes for different folks though. I don't mind playing competitively, but when I'm playing my fun fluffy list I don't want to go up against a tournament curbstomping list.

Niexist wrote:
Yeah cultists have a 6+ armor save, so they're bound to die, I mean no save against a bolter after all.

No doubt. That's what they are there for. In fact, the start about putting them around an HQ (like Abbadon or Kharn) is built around that fact. lol. But when (and Tau players, check me here because this could just be a continuation of my "Cheat" story) Stealth Suits can infiltrate, then dump 10+ shots on a blob of cultists that's only 20 strong.... well, you can see how that becomes ridiculous really quick. lol

Honestly though, I think Tau are destined to be shrunk the same way Grey Knights and SM get shrunk by point costs. If the Tau want to keep their awesome shooting, then there should be less soldiers to shoot so awesome-ly.

To whoever (Thud?): No, I'm not surprised my cultists get slaughtered. Like I said, that's what they are for. I'm just disturbed that they were slaughtered before turn 1 was even over. @.@ Before I could even have a turn 1, I lost half of my troop choices. There are all kinds of factors that can get thrown up, but that potential is just absurd, imb. Especially when you consider everything else I was up against at that time.

It's like the Tau have every single rule in the book, it's just a matter of when they want to use them. Another example of something the Tau don't need? Hit and Run? Why? Long Guns wasn't bad enough, we had to make them longer by letting the soldiers run away after they shoot? That's crazy. ><

And I don't post in the hopes of agreement, chief. In fact, I learn more when I'm proven wrong or had things explained a little better. For example, Niexist helped me understand this situation better.

 Very Superstitious wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Very Superstitious wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine

I don't care about winning, I care about having fun. Having my fluffy army crushed by triptide or any other competitive list is absolutely no fun for me. So don't whine when I don't feel like playing against a powergaming list and say no to playing you.

I have to ask this. What is a "Fluffy" army. Because everything in the codex is fluff. Tau do use riptides, they are fluff.

To me at least, a fluffy army is one that has a specific theme around it that really defines how the entire army is played.

I love playing my Ravenwing/Deathwing army. It isn't optimal because of the ridiculous amount of ap2 that is in the game now, but still a blast to play and it really feels like I am doing Dark Angels things. It's high risk, mediocre reward but an absolute blast to play and play against, from what I have been told. Spamming three of a single unit like a riptide or a heldrake just seems to me more of a powergaming move than a fluff one. Yeah riptides are there in the codex but it also says they are a very rare thing. Fielding 3+ riptides just isn't fluff friendly. I honestly don't even mind heldrake spam that much from a fluff perspective, I just dislike how they toast my bikes.

Different strokes for different folks though. I don't mind playing competitively, but when I'm playing my fun fluffy list I don't want to go up against a tournament curbstomping list.

So.... Spamming crappy units = fluffy and themed, but spamming good units = douchy powergaming and unfluffy?

Gotcha.

Thud wrote:

 Very Superstitious wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Very Superstitious wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine

I don't care about winning, I care about having fun. Having my fluffy army crushed by triptide or any other competitive list is absolutely no fun for me. So don't whine when I don't feel like playing against a powergaming list and say no to playing you.

I have to ask this. What is a "Fluffy" army. Because everything in the codex is fluff. Tau do use riptides, they are fluff.

To me at least, a fluffy army is one that has a specific theme around it that really defines how the entire army is played.

I love playing my Ravenwing/Deathwing army. It isn't optimal because of the ridiculous amount of ap2 that is in the game now, but still a blast to play and it really feels like I am doing Dark Angels things. It's high risk, mediocre reward but an absolute blast to play and play against, from what I have been told. Spamming three of a single unit like a riptide or a heldrake just seems to me more of a powergaming move than a fluff one. Yeah riptides are there in the codex but it also says they are a very rare thing. Fielding 3+ riptides just isn't fluff friendly. I honestly don't even mind heldrake spam that much from a fluff perspective, I just dislike how they toast my bikes.

Different strokes for different folks though. I don't mind playing competitively, but when I'm playing my fun fluffy list I don't want to go up against a tournament curbstomping list.

So.... Spamming crappy units = fluffy and themed, but spamming good units = douchy powergaming and unfluffy?

Gotcha.

There are 8 seperate very different units for Ravenwing, and 3 for deathwing, for a total of 11 different units in a deathwing/ravenwing combination army, how is that spam compared to bringing 3 of a single unit???

I will say I play Tau and it seems like we get a lot for our points sometimes.

But I don't win all that many games believe it or not, although that's more me not having that much skill than a reflection on the army I think.

Thud wrote:

 Very Superstitious wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Very Superstitious wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine

I don't care about winning, I care about having fun. Having my fluffy army crushed by triptide or any other competitive list is absolutely no fun for me. So don't whine when I don't feel like playing against a powergaming list and say no to playing you.

I have to ask this. What is a "Fluffy" army. Because everything in the codex is fluff. Tau do use riptides, they are fluff.

To me at least, a fluffy army is one that has a specific theme around it that really defines how the entire army is played.

I love playing my Ravenwing/Deathwing army. It isn't optimal because of the ridiculous amount of ap2 that is in the game now, but still a blast to play and it really feels like I am doing Dark Angels things. It's high risk, mediocre reward but an absolute blast to play and play against, from what I have been told. Spamming three of a single unit like a riptide or a heldrake just seems to me more of a powergaming move than a fluff one. Yeah riptides are there in the codex but it also says they are a very rare thing. Fielding 3+ riptides just isn't fluff friendly. I honestly don't even mind heldrake spam that much from a fluff perspective, I just dislike how they toast my bikes.

Different strokes for different folks though. I don't mind playing competitively, but when I'm playing my fun fluffy list I don't want to go up against a tournament curbstomping list.

So.... Spamming crappy units = fluffy and themed, but spamming good units = douchy powergaming and unfluffy?

Gotcha.

Spamming three riptides isn't fluffy. They are supposed to be extremely rare in the empire. And yes, spamming what is generally viewed as OP is a pretty douchy powergaming move. I don't mind playing (well I do slightly) playing against triptide or 3drake with my competitive lists, but when I tell someone I am playing my casual silly list and they drop triptide or the like on the field, that just isn't nice. I don't go into a casual game with my 4 Land Raider list when I know they would be ill equipped to deal with it, even though it would be fluffy for Dark Angels. When I play casual games I play for the fun that the battle is going to be and not to win, although that is always icing on the cake. Dropping triptide in a casual game is just an donkey-cave move and there is absolutely no way to spin it any other way.

I have to agree - no one is obligated to play against anyone else.

I went to the store this week - a tau player was there, and had trouble getting a game. No one wanted to play him.

His army is always the same - minimum firewarriors, max all other shooting, maybe 10% painted. He cordons off his army behind an aegis, and doesn't move.

Every single time, it is the same thing.


Why bother?

By the way, I guess I should mention I don't take the defensive line in my army. It's not even something I think about so I keep forgetting it's actually a thing people use with Tau.

I think the real issue is less with the Tau codex (thoug it can be OP with certain buolds), but with people still playing terrain like it's 5th edition. If you can draw a clear line of sight eithout SOME kind of cover or LOS terrain from any point on any table edge to any point on the opposite table edge you're not doing it right. Planet cueball and Agriworld fights are dead, playmore terrain and things get more even.

And remember to roll for Night Fight. It cuts some of the Tau firepower down a bit as less units can shoot.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
My Order of the Bloody Rose esque Sisters army with two squads of outflanking melta-dominions is going to get crushed generally by a 'tuned' army?

Aye... my SoB in general have no problems with AV14 or Tau. Tanks just go poof and I have enough bodies to spend on taking out Tau infantry so the army gets crippled and non-scoring. I seldom manage to take out all the silly jump-around suits but I don't need to as long as they stay away from my few remaining scoring models.

I haven't had any issues finding games, but then again I run a farsight enclave with 1 riptide and no gimmick farsight bomb.

Tau players can make the game more interesting if they don't use copy/paste gunlines.

Virtually every codex can come up with an optimal build, whatever the hell that is, and be competitive. Ultimately, it comes down to which mission and table type the game is. Exactly how well will a tau army do on the short table with 5 objectives and 12 fire warriors as troop choices? Probably not very good. Tau armies aren't terribly good against av 13-14 either for that matter. I've seen IG armies tear Tau to pieces. I've seen chaos demons shred a Tau army, and I've watched Eldar completely destroy a Tau army.

If your argument is, you don't like playing Tau, because you don't have fun against Tau, ok, fair enough. If your argument is you don't like playing Tau because they hold a massive advantage over every other army, your best bet is to buy a Tau codex, understand it, and then build an army that can exploit it's weaknesses.

Units are typically spammed because they are too good for their cost in points. If one such unit is cheap and extremely good, why not have a maximum number of them?

In our group we don't/can't follow wysiwyg on models all the time, but we indicate what is what on the model. I have not fielded the same list more than a couple of times. It is fun to have varying opposition instead of always facing 3 Riptides, WS spam or flycrons with the usual number of wraiths.

Last I played our Tau he fielded Vespids and 2 Devilfish. It was good fun.

Naw wrote:
Units are typically spammed because they are too good for their cost in points. If one such unit is cheap and extremely good, why not have a maximum number of them?

In our group we don't/can't follow wysiwyg on models all the time, but we indicate what is what on the model. I have not fielded the same list more than a couple of times. It is fun to have varying opposition instead of always facing 3 Riptides, WS spam or flycrons with the usual number of wraiths.

Last I played our Tau he fielded Vespids and 2 Devilfish. It was good fun.

Agreed, I hate playing the same list over and over again, heck thats why I have so many points into Dark Angels, if I want I can run greenwing, or Deathwing (currently not enough bikes to run ravenwing YET!)

Poly Ranger wrote:


Do you realise probability and statistics are used to calculate EVERYTHING in our modern world; consumer patterns, weather patterns, insurance values, investments, bookmakers odds, performance of employees, etc etc. You can use maths and a good understanding of probability to affect the world around you and every successful business person, teacher, accountant, doctor, salesman, etc etc, DOES! Using the laws of probability rather than gut instint is what will make you successful. Whilst probability cannot give you EXACT numbers, it will tell you the most likely outcomes and what to expect so you can plan accordingly. Dismissing probability because it does not give definite values is foolish and shows a distint lack of understanding of probabilities. (Read up on bell curves to get a basis of understanding)
And please - claiming that you won't do the maths because you can't be bothered shouldn't be a proud boast - it is an example of either laziness or ignorance of mathematics. It is offhanded comments like this and ones such as the older generations saying without any embarrassment "oh I was never any good at maths at school" (could you imagine them admitting they struggled with reading at school with no embarrassment?), that makes it difficult for us maths teachers to make our pupils understand how important mathematics is for their development and comprehension of the world around them!

I know all that.

Statistics is my best subject in mathematics (much to the derision of my mathematician friends).

I also know that the statisticians who work on consumer patterns, insurance values, etc put a hell of a lot more numbers into their calculations than just the equivalent of BS, S/T and Sv+ comparisons that get used in 40k mathhammer.

The fact is that the maths involved in 40k strategising are so simple as to be as accurate as guessing. They're an insult to statistical analysis. In addition, all working out the statistical probabilities does in 40k is demoralise people. and destroy their fighting spirit. In stead of, "It's a small chance, but this is my only hope! FOR THE EMPEROR!!" it turns into "Oh, I can't do this, there's only a 5% chance of doing it any damage, I should just give up and pack away. This is impossible."

That is why I can't be bothered. It just damages the hobby and isn't accurate enough to be meaningful.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:


That said, the fix for the Tau is simple: MAKE THEM MORE EXPENSIVE.

I disagree entirely; Tau were only marginally more expensive under their last codex and they were terrible in 5th ed. They had already improved under 6th whilst still using their 4th ed codex, which tells me that the problem doesn't lie within the Tau codex itself, but with the fact that 6th edition has refocused the rules in a way that happens to supremely suit Tau. If you want to fix that, you need to be looking at the rule book, probably with the assaulting from vehicles (or not, as is currently the case).

Ironically I think the main problem in the Tau codex that contributes to this is the one unit that got more expensive in relative terms; the humble Devilfish. Tau shouldn't be a static gun line army IMHO, they used to be all about manoeuvre fire. But when your base transport, naked, is 80 points, you just don't want to be sinking the points into it. If the Devilfish was a more reasonable price (say 60 points), you might see more Tau players loading up the Firewarriors to move off the gun line to claim forward objectives or use the good ol' fish of fury tactics. And that would bring them in range of your precious melee units and mid-range weapons.

 Jadenim wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:


That said, the fix for the Tau is simple: MAKE THEM MORE EXPENSIVE.

I disagree entirely; Tau were only marginally more expensive under their last codex and they were terrible in 5th ed. They had already improved under 6th whilst still using their 4th ed codex, which tells me that the problem doesn't lie within the Tau codex itself, but with the fact that 6th edition has refocused the rules in a way that happens to supremely suit Tau. If you want to fix that, you need to be looking at the rule book, probably with the assaulting from vehicles (or not, as is currently the case).

Ironically I think the main problem in the Tau codex that contributes to this is the one unit that got more expensive in relative terms; the humble Devilfish. Tau shouldn't be a static gun line army IMHO, they used to be all about manoeuvre fire. But when your base transport, naked, is 80 points, you just don't want to be sinking the points into it. If the Devilfish was a more reasonable price (say 60 points), you might see more Tau players loading up the Firewarriors to move off the gun line to claim forward objectives or use the good ol' fish of fury tactics. And that would bring them in range of your precious melee units and mid-range weapons.

+1

I only ever faced them once in 5th, they looked nice but were a little 'wtf?' one the gameplay side- now of course they are far better.

my 2k list for arguments sake:

commander

3 battle suits- these guys have killed way more than the riptides combined 3 marker light hits= goodbye squad

2 riptides

36 walking FW

2x 6 FW in devilfish

2 hammerheads

3 broadsides

10 pathfinders (2x5)

its caused more trouble than I ever imagined I actually move up the board when it is needed, using an ageis line is asking for an ig army to drop manticores on it, they hurt... moreover it removes the flexibility that Tau have they are good at gunlines no doubt. But a bit of moving around makes their firepower even better, seeing 2 riptides move up the table with back up has caused more than one army to collapse. However that depends upon the opposing force, as sometimes players refuse to play ball and go for their own gun line which then ends up in them getting blown to bits.

And most of the 'abuse' I've suffered has been about pathfinders and markerlights handy for buggering up a nasty squad in short order

Boniface wrote:
I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.

Yes, that must be it! Your mad skills at list building! Imagine those Ork, Blood Angels etc players are just a bunch of morons for not knowing how to build a winning list.

oh the arrogance!