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[Post New] 2013/11/06 15:53:41
    Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




VV are very bad in the BA codex because of their price point. I find that drop pod BA don't have enough of an alpha strike because of low model count. Tau should be able to intercept the horridly overcosted BA VV before they can really do anything, including assault. Remember, the interception happens at the end of *movement*.

Fragnoughts are generally solid, and work much better against Tau than Eldar. Eldar often have zero good targets for their drop turn and then just flee the scene, leaving them a waste of points. It looks very silly, but wave serpents deployed back to back really nerfs drop schemes.

You have to ask yourself when its cowardice and when people are just sick of scooping their models against the latest net list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/06 15:56:45

 
   
[Post New] 2013/11/06 18:48:41
    Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
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Made in gb
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





*bursts though room with axe* HEEEAAARRRS JHONNY!!!

 Zagman wrote:
 happygolucky wrote:
Ive stopped paying attention to this thread.

Spoiler:


All in all the thread has became the following:
-mobbed by competitive gamers (as per usual on these types of threads) lording over that people should not play casual games by stating that they should not take "crap" units.
-Same Tau players whining that people should be forced to play their triple tide list (by heavily implying it so)
-obnoxious posters Saying that other gamers are not better tactician's then them because "Tau lists are evenly balanced"..
-Painting? WTF has that got to do with how Tau play?
-So many people on there high horses, its makes me despair
-Casual gamers crying that everything in Tau is OP and how its always the beardy gamers who play them

For me Tau are not OP I will agree here with the competitive crowd that anyone saying Tau are OP are whining, these people will also be the people who say that at least one Helldrake on the board at being a WAAC TFG Power gamer, etc, etc

All army's have a strength and a weakness, the problem with which frustrates people is in the next paragraph..

What frustrates people about Tau is that their strength covers their weakness so efficiently that it gives people the Illusion that Tau are OP, and the Tau weakness is that they suck in close combat. Ok so now we (the players) have established the weakness we will try to exploit it (as any tactician would do).. If only it were that simple with the case of Tau..

Im going to put forth CSM as the opposing army (since its my main army and its a good example of how imbalanced the game is) and say CSM were to have repeat games against the classic Riptide gunline everyone keeps on talking about now in the CSM codex that codex in majority is a close combat army with bolters. ok so Im going to use a few squads of CSM with plasma guns, great some nice AP 2 fire and some Boltguns, next im going to use 20 Khorne Berserkers because that would be exploiting the weakness of the Tau: A big massive CC unit to rip the line apart. now Im going to use a Juggerlord with spawn (again exploiting the weakness of Tau: big meaty CC unit) next im going to use double Helldrakes (because if my opponents going to use triple Riptides im going to use Helldrakes) now im going to add in a pair of mauler fiends (again exploiting their weakness) and 2 Maulerfiends, now I have a nice themed force which could have a punch as well.

Deployment: Dawn of war, Mission: purge the Alien (because lets say how that is rolled).

Ok we roll off and the Tau player goes first. he fires the marker lights at my plasma squad in some ruins and manages to get 4 marker lights on each squad, ok nothing bads happening... until the Riptides start blazing their guns, all overcharge successfully and then bombard the units within the ruins both squads are in ruins at opposite edges so one two Riptides go for each squad whilst another goes for my Juggerlord unit in the centre.

Both Riptides don't scatter their blasts and are dead on target covering 7 guys each, the Tau player then takes the marker light counters off reducing my cover save to above a 6+ meaning I don't get a cover save. Tau player now gets 7 wounds, that is a total of 7 guys dead, no saves of any kind allowed, I then take a moral test and fall back 7-8"... Ok well that was strong but I will not be demoralised... next the Juggerlord takes hits from the riptide, and manages to get some serious damage on him (I do not know the Str. of the Overcharge blast so I don't know if it would instant death them all, but I will go on the assumption that it wont, hopefully giving this discussion fairness), now because of how I placed the unit (we will say there are 6 spawn and the Juggerlord) and how wound allocation works now there 2 Spawn dead without any saves as both middle parts of the each opponents deployment zones have no cover and the terrain is Symmetrical for fairness, he then fires at my Juggerlord unit again with his FW and because of weight of fire kills my Lord and another spawn then the missile sides from the Broadsides kill the rest of the spawn.. Ok so again heavy losses (Tau 4-0 through Slay the Warlord, First blood and the kill point for the Juggerlord) but I can live with it, plus I now know the units I need to take out ASAP which are the pathfinders, plus my Berserker's in the middle (as I would have no other place to put them if I wanted to get into assault quickly) have not been touched and both plasma squads roll to rally and fail running away another 7-8" moving off the board

Ok my first turn, I move my Berserker's up front head on to combat the gunline (since that is their role on the Battlefield) as well as the Maulerfiends to combat the pathfinders hiding among the ruins, I then run the Berserker's 3" as that is what I rolled and I did not have the range to shoot and then in the assault phase (seizing the chance and would know it would help me out) charge the FW behind the ADL as I was too far out for the pathfinders, but alas I fail my charge distance. Now tau players Turn two... I then start thinking and praying to the dark gods that my saves help me live..

Tau turn 2: 2 units of crisis suits enter the Battlefield with a PEN commander via DS landing on target, pathfinders again marker light away, this time at the Maulerfiends both get 2 marker lights on them each fiend, in the shooting phase the missile sides then fire using up the marker lights at the fiends glancing, reducing one to one HP and one to 2 HP... okay they are still alive yey ... the crisis suits then blow up both fiends through their shooting ... Oh.. then all riptides fire at the Berserker unit killing them all with overcharge blasts... within two turns the CSM player is tabled and cannot place his drakes on the board as the CSM player does not have any units on the board..

Ok so now the CSM player has to think how to beat the Tau with his CSM, he knows he will be using CC units since majority of his units are CC in the codex..

-Deep striking? Ok well CSM knows that there is lots of interceptor fire, so CSM player knows that its going to get lit up and probably die.
-Outflanking/getting stuff out of reserve close to the Tau players units? the amount of interceptor also prevents that.
-Allies? great so now that CSM player who only wanted CSM now has to buy another army to find ways to beat that list.

Now this has not been "mathammered" and this has not been a personal experience, but the simulation is deliberate, and whilst I know there will be "those people" who will comment saying that "people don't use KB" or "it wont scatter on target all the time" if your one of those people then you have clearly missed the point of the post beyond an epic scale. This is to show Tau players why people get frustrated with their army, the CSM player had only goy halfway to the board, with no chance of surviving, tell me would you like to be in the CSM players shoes? to get wiped off the board within two turns finding out that your units you want to choose had no chance of survival? this is what irks many people of the tau codex, they have essentially made Tau Codex: Team America: World Police, guns blazing without little or any thought required, blazing their guns as if they were having a BBQ, they cover there weakness that well..

On the other side of the Argument, I do feel empathy for the Tau players that don't get games as I had this problem sort of, as once I had proxied a Lifta-droppa battlewagon (which I was intending to buy when I had the cash) for an Apoc game (back before the Current IA: Apoc book when they could glance D6 times still in 6th) against my opponents who was a Necron opponent and a tau opponent (the Tau Codex was the current one people use today), now The Tau player was great, nothing wrong with the Tau, however the Necron players stated acting up on one occasion which put me off Apoc..

Basically I was using my Orks with a Stompa and a Skullhammer battle fortress (this was also the Apoc edition before the current one) it was around 600pts aside, but I digress, the Necron/Tau went first turn and managed to kill off a vindicator (giving them first blood) I had a LR reduced to 1 HP (as I was using Orks and CSM) from gauss fire and both super-heavies were reduced to 2-4 HP (remember that Stompas had 12 HP alongside the Skull hammer) with combined effort from both armies... Ok so heavy hitting but that's ok as its part of the game... Now my first turn, I glance my Necron opponents only Monolith once with my LR I then fired at the Monolith again with my Lifta-Droppa wagon, I hit it then drag it somewhere then glance it 3 more times wrecking it...

My Necron opponent then stated having a right go at me saying how broken and OP it was and unless I bought the appropriate model my opponent would not let me use it again, this moment took 20mins wasting game time and the Tau opponent left the gaming area to the store as he was sick of the arguing, I was just struck on the spot and just told my opponent that I liked the unit for its look and rules (as you Tau players would for your stuff), we did get back to the game in which the Necron Opponent killed the Lifta-droppa with some Crypteks (so it got one shotted off the board anyway?) and both super-heavies died, The Necron Opponent then makes a remark saying how the gauss weapons did not have to worry about super-heavies... this ticked me off real bad after all that whining he made about the wagon, but I kept it to myself.

I then have told myself that I would never play Apoc again, in which since then I have only played it once against a different opponent, I also have abandoned my Orks after that as I just felt crap for using them after that game, since then I occasionally use them. What I am trying to say to Tau players is that I do understand that it would be really annoying not getting games, after all you spent around £150 for those riptides and more for the rest, and I can understand on some level that it would be frustrating not being able to get games with the stuff you bought as was I with the Lifta-Droppa, but in all honesty without trying to sound harsh or snarky, but maybe you have to turn down that amp from 11 to maybe 7, by all means use stuff you want to use, but don't go all spammy with your best units unless you want tourney practice, in which case always alert your opponent before playing, if your playing just a normal game try to turn the volume down, and don't be surprised if someone does not want to play your list, after all you know how deadly your list is and so does your opponent, same here I wouldn't act or be surprised if my opponent refuse a game against me if I were to use Typhus plague zombies with triple Drakes. Maybe with the spare points you will find a new unit you will like (yeah it may not amount to the same power as the Riptide but it maybe one of those units that you may like just because the unit looks or feels on the battlefield is awesome for you just saying but trying different things has its own bonuses as well as the multiple units you used before hand ).

The point of the post was to show both sides (who have segregated themselves and now started attacking each other by the throat, in what appears to be violating rule 1 of Dakka which is to be polite from my perspective). each others argument without the sharpened stakes and keeping the civility of this discussion. If anyone starts to cherry pick my post to use to your arguing advantage then you have clearly missed the point of my post and therefore just showing how stuck up you are about your side of the argument.

The things that imbalancing does to us all in 40k eh?

I don't have a problem with Tau in general, I like the Riptide model and think it looks really cool my gripe is with the filthy elves... I mean Eldar and those rusty tin heads... I mean Necrons



Wow, that post was rather pointless, but you road in on your high horse anyway. You seem to care enough about this thread and pay enough attention to put up a block of dribble. I normally don't insult people's writing or posts like this, but wow, that was a poorly written mess. The points you attempted to make could have been made in a quarter of the text.

Now, I actually read it and wish I could get that precious minute back.

Though, I may have misunderstood, if your point was to bring levity and make the thread feel ridiculous, you did quite well.


I'm going to reiterate my points.

Tau aren't as OP as people think. The competitive scene is changing to show that, if you still think otherwise, pay more attention to the Meta. Tau need allies or end up as allies themselves and usually with Eldar. Eldar are far more frightening than Tau and vastly more powerful. Daemons are very strong, so are Space Marines, and CSM can still pull its weight.

So, anyone who is whining that Tau are OP, take a look at 6th Ed Eldar, then the history of 40k. It happens. It changes. Deal.

If you are a casual gamer, which there is nothing wrong with, stop whining. You play for fun and don't worry about optimizing, so don't worry if armies aren't perfectly balanced. Your problem is when you want to play a casual game against a competitive player.

I'm getting sick and tired of people complaining..."I'm a casual gamer and like to take fluffy lists.... but I hate that I can't beat competitive armies." If you've got a problem talk to your casual opponents.



Casual players and Competitive players need to communicate their expectations and wants clearly. For most its a continuum, and if the gap between players is too wide problems arise. Find opponents who are looking for the same type of game you are.

Effective communication would solve all of our problems. Don't expect everyone else to play the same game you do.


Obviously I came back to this thread observing what had became of it and well... Just same old competitive internet tough guys just trying to lord it over the casual players that there playstyle is better than theirs and how people should buy units they don't want to play for their their playstyle.

Since I expected someone to be "that guy" who would completely miss the point of my post and have your head so far deep in the sand, I will dumb it down just for you:

There was only one point I agreed with you and that was Tau are not OP, they have a major weakness which is CC however there weakness is so well covered by their strength in terms of efficiency from their shooting capability's that it gives the illusion that they are OP this is common for the people of the internet as it has been perceived.

Similarly in order to beat the Tau (or in this case triple riptide gunline spam) people may have to buy units or entire new armies for allies, that they would not have wanted just to compete with that list never mind about winning.

Also the situation is not about two competitive people playing a tournament game, we are talking about a pickup game, and in pickup games people don't usually expect "Netlist X and Y" in fact its rather the opposite its just two people just wanting a game and a few laughs, not a game to be focusing on (hence why I used the Khorne Berserker's Vs. the Triple tide spam), for one the tau player just wanted to crush their opponent whilst the other player just wanted a game and see few things go boom, not to be utterly tabled within two turns, and you could say the same for the IG player and the Tau player one wanted to have a game the other just wanted to utterly destroy his/her opponent. it is not fun being completely tabled game after game against the same list and finding out that the only way to beat the list is to buy more stuff the player did not want to, so it is perfectly reasonable to not give the game (however I think the IG player should not have accepted the request to play the game then turn it down as soon as he saw the Riptides out, that was kinda bad sportsmanship from the IG player imo).

Similarly as I said in the post I can also empathise with Tau player as I know somewhat on the lines of not being able to play (although not to the scale of my whole army being written off) as my example of the Lifta-Droppa wagon as shown, I felt a disheartened when my opponent had a go at me for using the Lifta-Droppa wagon during the Apoc game (which did ruin the experience of playing Apoc and large games for me) but I could not be able to comprehend how Tau players feel if they are not getting games after they had bought so many expensive models only to get turned down because their list is "too good" I know I would feel really bad if my Orks got the update and then people just stopped playing against them after waiting so long for a new codex like the vet Tau players.

The point of my post was not to bash a group of players (as no insults were used and I did try to talk in a calm matter) it was to show each group the other persons side of the augment in a calm and non insulting manner (as people listen when your not insulting them!) as before the post it was getting heated (imo) to the point where people were up against other peoples throats (metaphorically of course).

All I am kinda seeing from you a lot through the thread is bellowing at people who have a who think Tau maybe a bit too powerful telling them that they are nicely balanced, then going on yelling that Eldar are OP? can you not see your hypocrisy? fact of the matter is in 40k no army is balanced, they are either "good", "allies material" or "bad" Tau are very good, not OP as people say, but very good that there are "Top tier" even on their own, similarly Eldar are now at "Top Tier" for their speed and accuracy. To me Both are as bad as each other just in their own way, for example Tau have shed load amount of good shooting no ,matter what list is played, they can negate my cover and boost their accuracy with brilliant guns and rules that when combed with certain guns makes it almost impossible to get to assault sometimes even out of your deployment zone. Eldar on the other hand are just as bad, with the amount of Jink saves on AV12 and twin-linking firepower combing with "Bucket full of AP2-storming" it makes the game turn to a tactical fight to "if I don't shoot down those wave serpents, I'm dead" which is also no fun to play against either, in many ways Tau and Eldar are the perfect opponents for eachother as Tau can strip their cover saves but Eldar have the AP2 firepower to take down the major oncoming threats (such Battle suit deep strike for example).

If your playing competitively, which there is nothing wrong with, then please stop complaining, you brought your hardest list and so did your opponent, if you don't follow your own advise of adapting and overcoming the enemy (in your case Eldar) then the fault is with you, not the opponents army.

Similarly I did take that same advise away with me and I could quite easily adapt to Gunline Tau, all I need is some IG allies and some barrage (probably a Manticore since a squadron of Basilisk's in British pounds is too expensive for me to invest in) and now I have some firepower that ignores the Sv of a FW and Pathfinders and also ignores their cover save, so if I were to fight Tau I know I would have a blast (quite literally), so thanks for that advise

Note: Quote seems to not be working

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/06 18:52:43

Night Lords (40k): 3500pts
Klan Zaw Klan: 4000pts

 Grey Templar wrote:

Orks don't hate, they just love. Love to fight everyone.


Whatever you use.. It's Cheesy, broken and OP  
   
[Post New] 2013/11/07 16:13:57
    Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
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Made in us
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Hatfield, PA

 Rommel44 wrote:
It wasn't cowardice dude, reason the IG player refused to play is because he is still learning the game and having his teeth kicked in by a power gamer wouldn't have helped him, and this guy he would have played was planning on taking a super cheese list against him so no, I don't blame the kid, I blame the Tau player in this case, as he still hasn't gotten a game in 2x weeks as no one wants to deal with his shenanigans. Speaking of BA's, I actually have been testing out a Drop Pod list with them and so far it has performed very well again gun-line armies, including the Tau, for two reasons. 1st reason is that Furious Dreadnoughts are just amazing against everyone once they Drop Pod in, as not many things can stand up to 2x of them Drop Poding in Turn 1x and torching there troops with hvy. flamers. 2nd reason is that the Vanguard Vets are a solid option for the BA army in this case, as they deep strike turn 2 (most of the time) and then are able to still assault the turn they come in as they can still do it thanks to the BA army book. So far I have tried out a squad of these guys with great success and I plan to test this list out against that particular Tau player this weekend so he can stop complaining about not getting any games.


Rommel there is a big difference between a new player not wanting to waste time playing against a power gamer who doesn't care that he is a new player and experienced players just refusing to play against a given army despite who is playing it. Also sounds like you are trying something new for your army to be able to deal with Tau. *That* is the way it works. Army build X keeps losing, then try Army build Y instead and don't just run away and avoid those opponents ever.

Skriker
CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War 
   
[Post New] 2013/11/07 17:20:36
    Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 Skriker wrote:
 Rommel44 wrote:
It wasn't cowardice dude, reason the IG player refused to play is because he is still learning the game and having his teeth kicked in by a power gamer wouldn't have helped him, and this guy he would have played was planning on taking a super cheese list against him so no, I don't blame the kid, I blame the Tau player in this case, as he still hasn't gotten a game in 2x weeks as no one wants to deal with his shenanigans. Speaking of BA's, I actually have been testing out a Drop Pod list with them and so far it has performed very well again gun-line armies, including the Tau, for two reasons. 1st reason is that Furious Dreadnoughts are just amazing against everyone once they Drop Pod in, as not many things can stand up to 2x of them Drop Poding in Turn 1x and torching there troops with hvy. flamers. 2nd reason is that the Vanguard Vets are a solid option for the BA army in this case, as they deep strike turn 2 (most of the time) and then are able to still assault the turn they come in as they can still do it thanks to the BA army book. So far I have tried out a squad of these guys with great success and I plan to test this list out against that particular Tau player this weekend so he can stop complaining about not getting any games.


Rommel there is a big difference between a new player not wanting to waste time playing against a power gamer who doesn't care that he is a new player and experienced players just refusing to play against a given army despite who is playing it. Also sounds like you are trying something new for your army to be able to deal with Tau. *That* is the way it works. Army build X keeps losing, then try Army build Y instead and don't just run away and avoid those opponents ever.

Skriker


Lol I haven't avoided him at all mate. Like I have said earlier, I have played 4x games against him and I am sitting at 2-1-1 against him, with my one loss coming from an Apocalypse game he intentionally set up to his favor from the start and he spammed as much cheese as he could, and with the new rules favoring shooting, it gave him a huge edge in that one. He isn't fun to play against, and last week after he finally got a game in (Tau Riptide Spam vs Tau Riptide spam................ really boring to watch ), he began bragging on how he loves that GW nerfed the Assault face and how his Army really doesn't have a serious weakness as he can take care of the Assault phase with the marker light shenanigans and other stuff, so I would like to prove him wrong in this case, as yes BA arent amazing, however there Vanguard Vets can still Assault the turn they come in with there special rule, so Im hoping to wipe that smug grin off his face and make him rage quit .

That being said, its kinda bad when a Tau player brags how GW gave his army a huge boost with the nerfing of the Assault phase, as all the Tau do is shoot and shoot some more........ Makes you wonder why in my experience do I see a lot of power gamers going Tau these days.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/07 17:26:54

 
   
[Post New] 2013/11/07 18:00:12
    Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The one time I saw the old C:SM list try VV vs Tau, they got intercept splatted. VV are terrible for the cost.
   
[Post New] 2013/11/07 23:06:29
    Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Martel732 wrote:
The one time I saw the old C:SM list try VV vs Tau, they got intercept splatted. VV are terrible for the cost.


They aren't amazing, however they are more worth there points in the BA book, as the whole army has the Decent of Angels special rule which is very useful, especially when you equip your Drop Pods with locator beacons. Not saying that they are amazing or anything, however they are very solid and a good option against Tau, as once they get into assault they fold over like a stack of cards. Only is GW decided to ruin the ASsault phase and make this all about shooting......... making 40k in general pretty boring which is why Im more focused on fantasy right now lol.
   
[Post New] 2013/11/07 23:07:43
    Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




They are 35 pts a model after jump pack for BA. That's insane. The new VV are much better.
   
 
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