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2013/10/28 14:16:43
Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
Boniface wrote: I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.
Yes, that must be it! Your mad skills at list building! Imagine those Ork, Blood Angels etc players are just a bunch of morons for not knowing how to build a winning list.
oh the arrogance!
Agreed. It's almost as if they think the list needs doesn't even need them there to move the models, choose what to use and where, what to shoot and to roll dice. Apparently the list is all you need!
Seriously, Tau may make for stronger lists, but lists alone don't win games.
2013/10/28 14:35:16
Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
Boniface wrote: I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.
Yes, that must be it! Your mad skills at list building! Imagine those Ork, Blood Angels etc players are just a bunch of morons for not knowing how to build a winning list.
oh the arrogance!
Agreed. It's almost as if they think the list needs doesn't even need them there to move the models, choose what to use and where, what to shoot and to roll dice. Apparently the list is all you need!
Seriously, Tau may make for stronger lists, but lists alone don't win games.
Debatable.
Orks in 4th ed were nearly idiot proof, even in 5th you had to go out of your way to make a bad list. Then grey knights happened... purifiers pfffft.
Guard are actually really good in this edtion (until they nerf them into the ground with the next book, cause its only got one direction to go), barrage being a snipe weapon makes them silly. A cheap mortar can kill a 30pt marine with a heavy weapon. In my eldar I take a single Shadow weaver and he MVPs every game killing 5 times his cost usually.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/28 14:38:17
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
2013/10/28 14:48:52
Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
Boniface wrote: I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.
Yes, that must be it! Your mad skills at list building! Imagine those Ork, Blood Angels etc players are just a bunch of morons for not knowing how to build a winning list.
oh the arrogance!
Agreed. It's almost as if they think the list needs doesn't even need them there to move the models, choose what to use and where, what to shoot and to roll dice. Apparently the list is all you need!
Seriously, Tau may make for stronger lists, but lists alone don't win games.
Debatable.
Orks in 4th ed were nearly idiot proof, even in 5th you had to go out of your way to make a bad list. Then grey knights happened... purifiers pfffft.
Guard are actually really good in this edtion (until they nerf them into the ground with the next book, cause its only got one direction to go), barrage being a snipe weapon makes them silly. A cheap mortar can kill a 30pt marine with a heavy weapon. In my eldar I take a single Shadow weaver and he MVPs every game killing 5 times his cost usually.
No list works with zero player input. This isn't a game you can set to AFK mode, walk away, come back and have won.
The fact is that a well built list can, and will, mitigate a lot of the weaknesses of the army, or captialize on it's strengths (or both) by a really slip shod player can lose with it just as well as anything. Lists don't win games on their lwn, they just make it easier for players to win games instead.
2013/10/28 15:20:24
Subject: Re:Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
I'm going to post what I just posted on another thread literally minutes ago.
Wow, more people whining about Tau.
Mono Tau is not that powerful, if you or or opponents think it is, play better opponents or make it ultra casual.
The simply truth, Riptides aren't that great. Supported Riptides are. So, if you have a Buffmander, Many Markerlights, or allied Psyker they become much more powerful. Alone, Riptides aren't that great and IA riptides have a relatively low damage output for their cost.
Just to illustrate my points, here is the Feast of Blades Breakdown. These are some of the best 40k players around. http://www.torrentoffire.com/1745/feast-of-blades-invitational-by-the-numbers Mono Tau had a substantial losing record. Tau/Tau did better, Tau/SM, did even better, Tau/Eldar did better yet, Eldar/Tau even Better, and Pure Eldar dominating the field. Three of the bottom six players were Mono Tau.
Moral of the story, just play MonoTau, there are plenty of counters and its not as OP as you think. Things get crazy when you bring Allies into the picture, this is where Tau is getting a bad rap.
As always, make sure you and your opponent know what kind of game you are playing. The Beer and Pretzels league with a fluffy army and upgrades just for the sake of having them don't mix well with competitive players and builds. But, if you think that Tau are too powerful to even be on the table with the other codexes and need to be gimped to the asnine levels some on here have suggested either you don't understand the game, or are playing the wrong style of game with your opponents.
And as tough and as bad as Tau are, Eldar are far far worse and more powerful yet get less hate because people erroneously hate Riptides more than Eldar Jetbikes.
Zagman wrote: I'm going to post what I just posted on another thread literally minutes ago.
Wow, more people whining about Tau.
Mono Tau is not that powerful, if you or or opponents think it is, play better opponents or make it ultra casual.
The simply truth, Riptides aren't that great. Supported Riptides are. So, if you have a Buffmander, Many Markerlights, or allied Psyker they become much more powerful. Alone, Riptides aren't that great and IA riptides have a relatively low damage output for their cost.
Just to illustrate my points, here is the Feast of Blades Breakdown. These are some of the best 40k players around. http://www.torrentoffire.com/1745/feast-of-blades-invitational-by-the-numbers Mono Tau had a substantial losing record. Tau/Tau did better, Tau/SM, did even better, Tau/Eldar did better yet, Eldar/Tau even Better, and Pure Eldar dominating the field. Three of the bottom six players were Mono Tau.
Moral of the story, just play MonoTau, there are plenty of counters and its not as OP as you think. Things get crazy when you bring Allies into the picture, this is where Tau is getting a bad rap.
As always, make sure you and your opponent know what kind of game you are playing. The Beer and Pretzels league with a fluffy army and upgrades just for the sake of having them don't mix well with competitive players and builds. But, if you think that Tau are too powerful to even be on the table with the other codexes and need to be gimped to the asnine levels some on here have suggested either you don't understand the game, or are playing the wrong style of game with your opponents.
And as tough and as bad as Tau are, Eldar are far far worse and more powerful yet get less hate because people erroneously hate Riptides more than Eldar Jetbikes.
hi this is the most recent tourney. Notice all the tau at the top. You cant quote one tournament as proof of your theory. This very next one invalidates saying without question elder should be more feared than tau
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/28 19:54:16
warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!
8k points
3k points
3k points
Admech 2.5k points
2013/10/28 19:55:45
Subject: Re:Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
Niexist wrote: There are 8 seperate very different units for Ravenwing, and 3 for deathwing, for a total of 11 different units in a deathwing/ravenwing combination army, how is that spam compared to bringing 3 of a single unit???
Space Marines on bikes, Space Marines in Terminator armour and Land Speeders. Not spammy at all.
Very Superstitious wrote: Spamming three riptides isn't fluffy. They are supposed to be extremely rare in the empire.
I don't know what fluff you're reading, but pretty much the only fluff I've come across with regards to Riptides describes several of them working together.
Zagman wrote: I'm going to post what I just posted on another thread literally minutes ago.
Wow, more people whining about Tau.
Mono Tau is not that powerful, if you or or opponents think it is, play better opponents or make it ultra casual.
The simply truth, Riptides aren't that great. Supported Riptides are. So, if you have a Buffmander, Many Markerlights, or allied Psyker they become much more powerful. Alone, Riptides aren't that great and IA riptides have a relatively low damage output for their cost.
Just to illustrate my points, here is the Feast of Blades Breakdown. These are some of the best 40k players around. http://www.torrentoffire.com/1745/feast-of-blades-invitational-by-the-numbers Mono Tau had a substantial losing record. Tau/Tau did better, Tau/SM, did even better, Tau/Eldar did better yet, Eldar/Tau even Better, and Pure Eldar dominating the field. Three of the bottom six players were Mono Tau.
Moral of the story, just play MonoTau, there are plenty of counters and its not as OP as you think. Things get crazy when you bring Allies into the picture, this is where Tau is getting a bad rap.
As always, make sure you and your opponent know what kind of game you are playing. The Beer and Pretzels league with a fluffy army and upgrades just for the sake of having them don't mix well with competitive players and builds. But, if you think that Tau are too powerful to even be on the table with the other codexes and need to be gimped to the asnine levels some on here have suggested either you don't understand the game, or are playing the wrong style of game with your opponents.
And as tough and as bad as Tau are, Eldar are far far worse and more powerful yet get less hate because people erroneously hate Riptides more than Eldar Jetbikes.
and, with the very next post, everything you have said is invalidated.
hi this is the most recent tourney. Notice all the tau at the top.
Did you actually bother to read his post before you "invalidated" it? In your link, you have to go down all the way to #42 to find a Tau army without allies. Below an SoB army and a Blood Angels army.
"The Emporer is a rouge trader."
- Charlie Chaplain.
2013/10/28 20:04:03
Subject: Re:Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
Three out of the first 4 are Tau allied with Tau? Presumably to get more Riptides? Does that not say somehting about their / The Tau Codexes power in the game?
First time I read their stats I was shocked about hard Riptides are to kill.........High toughness wth a 2+ armour then they get a a 5++ and Feel no pain if that was not enough.....
Its a bit sick when there are a number of them..........
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Zagman wrote: I'm going to post what I just posted on another thread literally minutes ago.
Wow, more people whining about Tau.
Mono Tau is not that powerful, if you or or opponents think it is, play better opponents or make it ultra casual.
The simply truth, Riptides aren't that great. Supported Riptides are. So, if you have a Buffmander, Many Markerlights, or allied Psyker they become much more powerful. Alone, Riptides aren't that great and IA riptides have a relatively low damage output for their cost.
Just to illustrate my points, here is the Feast of Blades Breakdown. These are some of the best 40k players around. http://www.torrentoffire.com/1745/feast-of-blades-invitational-by-the-numbers Mono Tau had a substantial losing record. Tau/Tau did better, Tau/SM, did even better, Tau/Eldar did better yet, Eldar/Tau even Better, and Pure Eldar dominating the field. Three of the bottom six players were Mono Tau.
Moral of the story, just play MonoTau, there are plenty of counters and its not as OP as you think. Things get crazy when you bring Allies into the picture, this is where Tau is getting a bad rap.
As always, make sure you and your opponent know what kind of game you are playing. The Beer and Pretzels league with a fluffy army and upgrades just for the sake of having them don't mix well with competitive players and builds. But, if you think that Tau are too powerful to even be on the table with the other codexes and need to be gimped to the asnine levels some on here have suggested either you don't understand the game, or are playing the wrong style of game with your opponents.
And as tough and as bad as Tau are, Eldar are far far worse and more powerful yet get less hate because people erroneously hate Riptides more than Eldar Jetbikes.
hi this is the most recent tourney. Notice all the tau at the top. You cant quote one tournament as proof of your theory. This very next one invalidates saying without question elder should be more feared than tau
Yep, posting results where the O'VesaStar came out of nowhere and before people knew how to deal with it. Also, people have brought their eldar up to speed after finding they pretty much destroy Tau. Results from the latest tournaments have Tau placing behind Tau/Tau, Tau/SM, Tau/Eldar, Eldar/Tau, Eldar. Don't forget to note how much of that field included Tau.
Mono Tau isn't that strong, but they bring a ton to other armies. The meta is constantly evolving and takes time to settle. We are only beginning to realize the effects of SM.
PS, the NOVA was not the most recent major tournament and was pre SM. You know, that army which brings a hard counter for Broadsides, Riptides, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: Strangely enough, pure Tau was on the final table at FoB Invitational.
Edit: I had to go to 27th to find Mono Tau. And 3 of the bottom 6 were Mono Tau. That tells a different story.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: Three out of the first 4 are Tau allied with Tau? Presumably to get more Riptides? Does that not say somehting about their / The Tau Codexes power in the game?
First time I read their stats I was shocked about hard Riptides are to kill.........High toughness wth a 2+ armour then they get a a 5++ and Feel no pain if that was not enough.....
Its a bit sick when there are a number of them..........
And that was right after Farsight Enclave dropped and it hit the Meta hard. Now, the Meta has adjusted and Riptide Spam is much weaker than it was before. GravSpam is a pretty hard counter. The O'VesaStar doesn't seem to be faring as well this last two months.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/28 20:11:58
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Reanimation protocol is
Snip~
Getting tired of playing Kill Team against a Necron player whose throwing 20 damn whatevers at my 6 Chosen and they keep getting back up. At least in a fire fight with Tau, they have the good decency to die when I roll a 6 through their fxcking eye piece. ><
Sorry bring this back for a sec.
Those necrons shouldn't be getting back up as they aren't a unit. killing one is removing the whole unit: AKA no Res
Back to OP, a Big chunk of all the complaints always stems from lack of LOS, and not understanding the damn rules. Also half the people not wanting to change there current lists to accommodate the new changes.
As something i should sig eventually.
Savageconvoy wrote: These threads still kill me. In 5th I never had a shortage of players that would field a ton of missile launchers and lascannons to one shot my expensive suits and broadsides and every game was an uphill battle. When I mentioned how hard it was I got the response "That's just how it goes with an out of date codex"
So my answer to what's 'fair' use is anything you find in the codex and within the FOC limitations. I never saw people change their list to cater to my underpowered codex before so I don't think it warrants me returning the favor.
hi this is the most recent tourney. Notice all the tau at the top. You cant quote one tournament as proof of your theory. This very next one invalidates saying without question elder should be more feared than tau
Chaos Space marines is down at 54, so depressing.
2013/10/28 20:59:14
Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
We get it Martel732, lament all BA players cause they have an old dex and they are overcosted. We get it, they'll come around again. It sucks, there is only one competitive BA build and it involves spamming Ravens. This is a normal part of 40k.
*bursts though room with axe* HEEEAAARRRS JHONNY!!!
Ive stopped paying attention to this thread.
All in all the thread has became the following: -mobbed by competitive gamers (as per usual on these types of threads) lording over that people should not play casual games by stating that they should not take "crap" units. -Same Tau players whining that people should be forced to play their triple tide list (by heavily implying it so) -obnoxious posters Saying that other gamers are not better tactician's then them because "Tau lists are evenly balanced".. -Painting? WTF has that got to do with how Tau play? -So many people on there high horses, its makes me despair -Casual gamers crying that everything in Tau is OP and how its always the beardy gamers who play them
For me Tau are not OP I will agree here with the competitive crowd that anyone saying Tau are OP are whining, these people will also be the people who say that at least one Helldrake on the board at being a WAACTFG Power gamer, etc, etc
All army's have a strength and a weakness, the problem with which frustrates people is in the next paragraph..
What frustrates people about Tau is that their strength covers their weakness so efficiently that it gives people the Illusion that Tau are OP, and the Tau weakness is that they suck in close combat. Ok so now we (the players) have established the weakness we will try to exploit it (as any tactician would do).. If only it were that simple with the case of Tau..
Im going to put forth CSM as the opposing army (since its my main army and its a good example of how imbalanced the game is) and say CSM were to have repeat games against the classic Riptide gunline everyone keeps on talking about now in the CSM codex that codex in majority is a close combat army with bolters. ok so Im going to use a few squads of CSM with plasma guns, great some nice AP 2 fire and some Boltguns, next im going to use 20 Khorne Berserkers because that would be exploiting the weakness of the Tau: A big massive CC unit to rip the line apart. now Im going to use a Juggerlord with spawn (again exploiting the weakness of Tau: big meaty CC unit) next im going to use double Helldrakes (because if my opponents going to use triple Riptides im going to use Helldrakes) now im going to add in a pair of mauler fiends (again exploiting their weakness) and 2 Maulerfiends, now I have a nice themed force which could have a punch as well.
Deployment: Dawn of war, Mission: purge the Alien (because lets say how that is rolled).
Ok we roll off and the Tau player goes first. he fires the marker lights at my plasma squad in some ruins and manages to get 4 marker lights on each squad, ok nothing bads happening... until the Riptides start blazing their guns, all overcharge successfully and then bombard the units within the ruins both squads are in ruins at opposite edges so one two Riptides go for each squad whilst another goes for my Juggerlord unit in the centre.
Both Riptides don't scatter their blasts and are dead on target covering 7 guys each, the Tau player then takes the marker light counters off reducing my cover save to above a 6+ meaning I don't get a cover save. Tau player now gets 7 wounds, that is a total of 7 guys dead, no saves of any kind allowed, I then take a moral test and fall back 7-8"... Ok well that was strong but I will not be demoralised... next the Juggerlord takes hits from the riptide, and manages to get some serious damage on him (I do not know the Str. of the Overcharge blast so I don't know if it would instant death them all, but I will go on the assumption that it wont, hopefully giving this discussion fairness), now because of how I placed the unit (we will say there are 6 spawn and the Juggerlord) and how wound allocation works now there 2 Spawn dead without any saves as both middle parts of the each opponents deployment zones have no cover and the terrain is Symmetrical for fairness, he then fires at my Juggerlord unit again with his FW and because of weight of fire kills my Lord and another spawn then the missile sides from the Broadsides kill the rest of the spawn.. Ok so again heavy losses (Tau 4-0 through Slay the Warlord, First blood and the kill point for the Juggerlord) but I can live with it, plus I now know the units I need to take out ASAP which are the pathfinders, plus my Berserker's in the middle (as I would have no other place to put them if I wanted to get into assault quickly) have not been touched and both plasma squads roll to rally and fail running away another 7-8" moving off the board
Ok my first turn, I move my Berserker's up front head on to combat the gunline (since that is their role on the Battlefield) as well as the Maulerfiends to combat the pathfinders hiding among the ruins, I then run the Berserker's 3" as that is what I rolled and I did not have the range to shoot and then in the assault phase (seizing the chance and would know it would help me out) charge the FW behind the ADL as I was too far out for the pathfinders, but alas I fail my charge distance. Now tau players Turn two... I then start thinking and praying to the dark gods that my saves help me live..
Tau turn 2: 2 units of crisis suits enter the Battlefield with a PEN commander via DS landing on target, pathfinders again marker light away, this time at the Maulerfiends both get 2 marker lights on them each fiend, in the shooting phase the missile sides then fire using up the marker lights at the fiends glancing, reducing one to one HP and one to 2 HP... okay they are still alive yey ... the crisis suits then blow up both fiends through their shooting ... Oh.. then all riptides fire at the Berserker unit killing them all with overcharge blasts... within two turns the CSM player is tabled and cannot place his drakes on the board as the CSM player does not have any units on the board..
Ok so now the CSM player has to think how to beat the Tau with his CSM, he knows he will be using CC units since majority of his units are CC in the codex..
-Deep striking? Ok well CSM knows that there is lots of interceptor fire, so CSM player knows that its going to get lit up and probably die. -Outflanking/getting stuff out of reserve close to the Tau players units? the amount of interceptor also prevents that. -Allies? great so now that CSM player who only wanted CSM now has to buy another army to find ways to beat that list.
Now this has not been "mathammered" and this has not been a personal experience, but the simulation is deliberate, and whilst I know there will be "those people" who will comment saying that "people don't use KB" or "it wont scatter on target all the time" if your one of those people then you have clearly missed the point of the post beyond an epic scale. This is to show Tau players why people get frustrated with their army, the CSM player had only goy halfway to the board, with no chance of surviving, tell me would you like to be in the CSM players shoes? to get wiped off the board within two turns finding out that your units you want to choose had no chance of survival? this is what irks many people of the tau codex, they have essentially made Tau Codex: Team America: World Police, guns blazing without little or any thought required, blazing their guns as if they were having a BBQ, they cover there weakness that well..
On the other side of the Argument, I do feel empathy for the Tau players that don't get games as I had this problem sort of, as once I had proxied a Lifta-droppa battlewagon (which I was intending to buy when I had the cash) for an Apoc game (back before the Current IA: Apoc book when they could glance D6 times still in 6th) against my opponents who was a Necron opponent and a tau opponent (the Tau Codex was the current one people use today), now The Tau player was great, nothing wrong with the Tau, however the Necron players stated acting up on one occasion which put me off Apoc..
Basically I was using my Orks with a Stompa and a Skullhammer battle fortress (this was also the Apoc edition before the current one) it was around 600pts aside, but I digress, the Necron/Tau went first turn and managed to kill off a vindicator (giving them first blood) I had a LR reduced to 1 HP (as I was using Orks and CSM) from gauss fire and both super-heavies were reduced to 2-4 HP (remember that Stompas had 12 HP alongside the Skull hammer) with combined effort from both armies... Ok so heavy hitting but that's ok as its part of the game... Now my first turn, I glance my Necron opponents only Monolith once with my LR I then fired at the Monolith again with my Lifta-Droppa wagon, I hit it then drag it somewhere then glance it 3 more times wrecking it...
My Necron opponent then stated having a right go at me saying how broken and OP it was and unless I bought the appropriate model my opponent would not let me use it again, this moment took 20mins wasting game time and the Tau opponent left the gaming area to the store as he was sick of the arguing, I was just struck on the spot and just told my opponent that I liked the unit for its look and rules (as you Tau players would for your stuff), we did get back to the game in which the Necron Opponent killed the Lifta-droppa with some Crypteks (so it got one shotted off the board anyway?) and both super-heavies died, The Necron Opponent then makes a remark saying how the gauss weapons did not have to worry about super-heavies... this ticked me off real bad after all that whining he made about the wagon, but I kept it to myself.
I then have told myself that I would never play Apoc again, in which since then I have only played it once against a different opponent, I also have abandoned my Orks after that as I just felt crap for using them after that game, since then I occasionally use them. What I am trying to say to Tau players is that I do understand that it would be really annoying not getting games, after all you spent around £150 for those riptides and more for the rest, and I can understand on some level that it would be frustrating not being able to get games with the stuff you bought as was I with the Lifta-Droppa, but in all honesty without trying to sound harsh or snarky, but maybe you have to turn down that amp from 11 to maybe 7, by all means use stuff you want to use, but don't go all spammy with your best units unless you want tourney practice, in which case always alert your opponent before playing, if your playing just a normal game try to turn the volume down, and don't be surprised if someone does not want to play your list, after all you know how deadly your list is and so does your opponent, same here I wouldn't act or be surprised if my opponent refuse a game against me if I were to use Typhus plague zombies with triple Drakes. Maybe with the spare points you will find a new unit you will like (yeah it may not amount to the same power as the Riptide but it maybe one of those units that you may like just because the unit looks or feels on the battlefield is awesome for you just saying but trying different things has its own bonuses as well as the multiple units you used before hand ).
The point of the post was to show both sides (who have segregated themselves and now started attacking each other by the throat, in what appears to be violating rule 1 of Dakka which is to be polite from my perspective). each others argument without the sharpened stakes and keeping the civility of this discussion. If anyone starts to cherry pick my post to use to your arguing advantage then you have clearly missed the point of my post and therefore just showing how stuck up you are about your side of the argument.
The things that imbalancing does to us all in 40k eh?
I don't have a problem with Tau in general, I like the Riptide model and think it looks really cool my gripe is with the filthy elves... I mean Eldar and those rusty tin heads... I mean Necrons
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/28 22:03:52
The Tau are weakest in a phase of the game that often doesn't even happen against them or doesn't have any meaningful impact on the outcome. That is, you feed the assault squad an expendable unit and then just shoot them to next turn.
2013/10/28 22:11:18
Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
What happened to reliance on synergy as a weakness?
A lot of there strength still comes from multiple different units working together?
Why are both of your examples so extremely skewed
there is nearly nothing that stops deep strikes from scattering that doesn't involve models being put closer (aka in charge range). If you know your going to face riptides why are you clumping models together to allow 7 hits per template that's just silly. and for that matter why are you failing EVERY moral test? The examples them selves just erked me though anyway I will agree dice happens. consistent or not.
Edit: geeze i should refresh first. (at happygolucky)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/28 22:22:10
*bursts though room with axe* HEEEAAARRRS JHONNY!!!
ClockworkZion wrote: Also love the "I stopped paying attention, so let's post a wall of text" post right above my previous post.
Works a charm , just posting final thoughts on my opinion of the whole thread.
At least it was not a trolling post
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Desubot wrote: What happened to reliance on synergy as a weakness?
A lot of there strength still comes from multiple different units working together?
Why are both of your examples so extremely skewed
there is nearly nothing that stops deep strikes from scattering that doesn't involve models being put closer (aka in charge range). If you know your going to face riptides why are you clumping models together to allow 7 hits per template that's just silly. and for that matter why are you failing EVERY moral test? The examples them selves just erked me though anyway I will agree dice happens. consistent or not.
Edit: geeze i should refresh first. (at happygolucky)
As I said it was deliberate to show each groups side of the argument so both side's could agree on some type of ground (what that ground is, is up to the posters) without the rudeness that many posters have posted in this thread (because in general people are willing to listen if you put both sides of the argument in a non bias layout)
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/10/28 22:38:41
All in all the thread has became the following:
-mobbed by competitive gamers (as per usual on these types of threads) lording over that people should not play casual games by stating that they should not take "crap" units.
-Same Tau players whining that people should be forced to play their triple tide list (by heavily implying it so)
-obnoxious posters Saying that other gamers are not better tactician's then them because "Tau lists are evenly balanced"..
-Painting? WTF has that got to do with how Tau play?
-So many people on there high horses, its makes me despair
-Casual gamers crying that everything in Tau is OP and how its always the beardy gamers who play them
For me Tau are not OP I will agree here with the competitive crowd that anyone saying Tau are OP are whining, these people will also be the people who say that at least one Helldrake on the board at being a WAACTFG Power gamer, etc, etc
All army's have a strength and a weakness, the problem with which frustrates people is in the next paragraph..
What frustrates people about Tau is that their strength covers their weakness so efficiently that it gives people the Illusion that Tau are OP, and the Tau weakness is that they suck in close combat. Ok so now we (the players) have established the weakness we will try to exploit it (as any tactician would do).. If only it were that simple with the case of Tau..
Im going to put forth CSM as the opposing army (since its my main army and its a good example of how imbalanced the game is) and say CSM were to have repeat games against the classic Riptide gunline everyone keeps on talking about now in the CSM codex that codex in majority is a close combat army with bolters. ok so Im going to use a few squads of CSM with plasma guns, great some nice AP 2 fire and some Boltguns, next im going to use 20 Khorne Berserkers because that would be exploiting the weakness of the Tau: A big massive CC unit to rip the line apart. now Im going to use a Juggerlord with spawn (again exploiting the weakness of Tau: big meaty CC unit) next im going to use double Helldrakes (because if my opponents going to use triple Riptides im going to use Helldrakes) now im going to add in a pair of mauler fiends (again exploiting their weakness) and 2 Maulerfiends, now I have a nice themed force which could have a punch as well.
Deployment: Dawn of war, Mission: purge the Alien (because lets say how that is rolled).
Ok we roll off and the Tau player goes first. he fires the marker lights at my plasma squad in some ruins and manages to get 4 marker lights on each squad, ok nothing bads happening... until the Riptides start blazing their guns, all overcharge successfully and then bombard the units within the ruins both squads are in ruins at opposite edges so one two Riptides go for each squad whilst another goes for my Juggerlord unit in the centre.
Both Riptides don't scatter their blasts and are dead on target covering 7 guys each, the Tau player then takes the marker light counters off reducing my cover save to above a 6+ meaning I don't get a cover save. Tau player now gets 7 wounds, that is a total of 7 guys dead, no saves of any kind allowed, I then take a moral test and fall back 7-8"... Ok well that was strong but I will not be demoralised... next the Juggerlord takes hits from the riptide, and manages to get some serious damage on him (I do not know the Str. of the Overcharge blast so I don't know if it would instant death them all, but I will go on the assumption that it wont, hopefully giving this discussion fairness), now because of how I placed the unit (we will say there are 6 spawn and the Juggerlord) and how wound allocation works now there 2 Spawn dead without any saves as both middle parts of the each opponents deployment zones have no cover and the terrain is Symmetrical for fairness, he then fires at my Juggerlord unit again with his FW and because of weight of fire kills my Lord and another spawn then the missile sides from the Broadsides kill the rest of the spawn.. Ok so again heavy losses (Tau 4-0 through Slay the Warlord, First blood and the kill point for the Juggerlord) but I can live with it, plus I now know the units I need to take out ASAP which are the pathfinders, plus my Berserker's in the middle (as I would have no other place to put them if I wanted to get into assault quickly) have not been touched and both plasma squads roll to rally and fail running away another 7-8" moving off the board
Ok my first turn, I move my Berserker's up front head on to combat the gunline (since that is their role on the Battlefield) as well as the Maulerfiends to combat the pathfinders hiding among the ruins, I then run the Berserker's 3" as that is what I rolled and I did not have the range to shoot and then in the assault phase (seizing the chance and would know it would help me out) charge the FW behind the ADL as I was too far out for the pathfinders, but alas I fail my charge distance. Now tau players Turn two... I then start thinking and praying to the dark gods that my saves help me live..
Tau turn 2: 2 units of crisis suits enter the Battlefield with a PEN commander via DS landing on target, pathfinders again marker light away, this time at the Maulerfiends both get 2 marker lights on them each fiend, in the shooting phase the missile sides then fire using up the marker lights at the fiends glancing, reducing one to one HP and one to 2 HP... okay they are still alive yey ... the crisis suits then blow up both fiends through their shooting ... Oh.. then all riptides fire at the Berserker unit killing them all with overcharge blasts... within two turns the CSM player is tabled and cannot place his drakes on the board as the CSM player does not have any units on the board..
Ok so now the CSM player has to think how to beat the Tau with his CSM, he knows he will be using CC units since majority of his units are CC in the codex..
-Deep striking? Ok well CSM knows that there is lots of interceptor fire, so CSM player knows that its going to get lit up and probably die.
-Outflanking/getting stuff out of reserve close to the Tau players units? the amount of interceptor also prevents that.
-Allies? great so now that CSM player who only wanted CSM now has to buy another army to find ways to beat that list.
Now this has not been "mathammered" and this has not been a personal experience, but the simulation is deliberate, and whilst I know there will be "those people" who will comment saying that "people don't use KB" or "it wont scatter on target all the time" if your one of those people then you have clearly missed the point of the post beyond an epic scale. This is to show Tau players why people get frustrated with their army, the CSM player had only goy halfway to the board, with no chance of surviving, tell me would you like to be in the CSM players shoes? to get wiped off the board within two turns finding out that your units you want to choose had no chance of survival? this is what irks many people of the tau codex, they have essentially made Tau Codex: Team America: World Police, guns blazing without little or any thought required, blazing their guns as if they were having a BBQ, they cover there weakness that well..
On the other side of the Argument, I do feel empathy for the Tau players that don't get games as I had this problem sort of, as once I had proxied a Lifta-droppa battlewagon (which I was intending to buy when I had the cash) for an Apoc game (back before the Current IA: Apoc book when they could glance D6 times still in 6th) against my opponents who was a Necron opponent and a tau opponent (the Tau Codex was the current one people use today), now The Tau player was great, nothing wrong with the Tau, however the Necron players stated acting up on one occasion which put me off Apoc..
Basically I was using my Orks with a Stompa and a Skullhammer battle fortress (this was also the Apoc edition before the current one) it was around 600pts aside, but I digress, the Necron/Tau went first turn and managed to kill off a vindicator (giving them first blood) I had a LR reduced to 1 HP (as I was using Orks and CSM) from gauss fire and both super-heavies were reduced to 2-4 HP (remember that Stompas had 12 HP alongside the Skull hammer) with combined effort from both armies... Ok so heavy hitting but that's ok as its part of the game... Now my first turn, I glance my Necron opponents only Monolith once with my LR I then fired at the Monolith again with my Lifta-Droppa wagon, I hit it then drag it somewhere then glance it 3 more times wrecking it...
My Necron opponent then stated having a right go at me saying how broken and OP it was and unless I bought the appropriate model my opponent would not let me use it again, this moment took 20mins wasting game time and the Tau opponent left the gaming area to the store as he was sick of the arguing, I was just struck on the spot and just told my opponent that I liked the unit for its look and rules (as you Tau players would for your stuff), we did get back to the game in which the Necron Opponent killed the Lifta-droppa with some Crypteks (so it got one shotted off the board anyway?) and both super-heavies died, The Necron Opponent then makes a remark saying how the gauss weapons did not have to worry about super-heavies... this ticked me off real bad after all that whining he made about the wagon, but I kept it to myself.
I then have told myself that I would never play Apoc again, in which since then I have only played it once against a different opponent, I also have abandoned my Orks after that as I just felt crap for using them after that game, since then I occasionally use them. What I am trying to say to Tau players is that I do understand that it would be really annoying not getting games, after all you spent around £150 for those riptides and more for the rest, and I can understand on some level that it would be frustrating not being able to get games with the stuff you bought as was I with the Lifta-Droppa, but in all honesty without trying to sound harsh or snarky, but maybe you have to turn down that amp from 11 to maybe 7, by all means use stuff you want to use, but don't go all spammy with your best units unless you want tourney practice, in which case always alert your opponent before playing, if your playing just a normal game try to turn the volume down, and don't be surprised if someone does not want to play your list, after all you know how deadly your list is and so does your opponent, same here I wouldn't act or be surprised if my opponent refuse a game against me if I were to use Typhus plague zombies with triple Drakes. Maybe with the spare points you will find a new unit you will like (yeah it may not amount to the same power as the Riptide but it maybe one of those units that you may like just because the unit looks or feels on the battlefield is awesome for you just saying but trying different things has its own bonuses as well as the multiple units you used before hand ).
The point of the post was to show both sides (who have segregated themselves and now started attacking each other by the throat, in what appears to be violating rule 1 of Dakka which is to be polite from my perspective). each others argument without the sharpened stakes and keeping the civility of this discussion. If anyone starts to cherry pick my post to use to your arguing advantage then you have clearly missed the point of my post and therefore just showing how stuck up you are about your side of the argument.
The things that imbalancing does to us all in 40k eh?
I don't have a problem with Tau in general, I like the Riptide model and think it looks really cool my gripe is with the filthy elves... I mean Eldar and those rusty tin heads... I mean Necrons
You my sir are a hero, I will agree that the Tau bring in a new meta of covering weaknesses, if all codices were like this I think less people would travel to other TT wargames, problem is quite frankly the Tau made a big power leap instead of new codex power creep (to you naysayers please grab the old BT codex, or DA codex....or really any out of date codex and try to play against the newer codices....idk how SoB do it).
Really I will grant that if Tau dex was out in 5e I think it would have been a good codex that would have covered weaknesses, but not nullifying weaknesses (for instance if there wasnt overwatch tau would have to be much more strategic, rather than just burn markerlights til cheese)
EDIT: and please Tau players dont try to feed me the tripe of "WE GET THE NEW CODEX SO LEAVE US ALONE IN OUR CHEESE" because all that makes me want to do is interwebz slap you in the face when you gripe about the next cheesy army....then again thats how I feel about all the people who say that about their army, I started DA in mid 5th where they were subpar....and I will keep playing them when they go subpar later this edition/next edition
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/28 23:49:30
DA 4000 points W/L/D 6e 3/2/0
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And 100% Primed!
2013/10/29 00:55:26
Subject: Re:Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
I'm just pure evil and run my Riptide around. He be a attention whore. Not much attention is paid to my three Hammerheads,,,,
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2013/10/29 01:20:17
Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
All in all the thread has became the following:
-mobbed by competitive gamers (as per usual on these types of threads) lording over that people should not play casual games by stating that they should not take "crap" units.
-Same Tau players whining that people should be forced to play their triple tide list (by heavily implying it so)
-obnoxious posters Saying that other gamers are not better tactician's then them because "Tau lists are evenly balanced"..
-Painting? WTF has that got to do with how Tau play?
-So many people on there high horses, its makes me despair
-Casual gamers crying that everything in Tau is OP and how its always the beardy gamers who play them
For me Tau are not OP I will agree here with the competitive crowd that anyone saying Tau are OP are whining, these people will also be the people who say that at least one Helldrake on the board at being a WAACTFG Power gamer, etc, etc
All army's have a strength and a weakness, the problem with which frustrates people is in the next paragraph..
What frustrates people about Tau is that their strength covers their weakness so efficiently that it gives people the Illusion that Tau are OP, and the Tau weakness is that they suck in close combat. Ok so now we (the players) have established the weakness we will try to exploit it (as any tactician would do).. If only it were that simple with the case of Tau..
Im going to put forth CSM as the opposing army (since its my main army and its a good example of how imbalanced the game is) and say CSM were to have repeat games against the classic Riptide gunline everyone keeps on talking about now in the CSM codex that codex in majority is a close combat army with bolters. ok so Im going to use a few squads of CSM with plasma guns, great some nice AP 2 fire and some Boltguns, next im going to use 20 Khorne Berserkers because that would be exploiting the weakness of the Tau: A big massive CC unit to rip the line apart. now Im going to use a Juggerlord with spawn (again exploiting the weakness of Tau: big meaty CC unit) next im going to use double Helldrakes (because if my opponents going to use triple Riptides im going to use Helldrakes) now im going to add in a pair of mauler fiends (again exploiting their weakness) and 2 Maulerfiends, now I have a nice themed force which could have a punch as well.
Deployment: Dawn of war, Mission: purge the Alien (because lets say how that is rolled).
Ok we roll off and the Tau player goes first. he fires the marker lights at my plasma squad in some ruins and manages to get 4 marker lights on each squad, ok nothing bads happening... until the Riptides start blazing their guns, all overcharge successfully and then bombard the units within the ruins both squads are in ruins at opposite edges so one two Riptides go for each squad whilst another goes for my Juggerlord unit in the centre.
Both Riptides don't scatter their blasts and are dead on target covering 7 guys each, the Tau player then takes the marker light counters off reducing my cover save to above a 6+ meaning I don't get a cover save. Tau player now gets 7 wounds, that is a total of 7 guys dead, no saves of any kind allowed, I then take a moral test and fall back 7-8"... Ok well that was strong but I will not be demoralised... next the Juggerlord takes hits from the riptide, and manages to get some serious damage on him (I do not know the Str. of the Overcharge blast so I don't know if it would instant death them all, but I will go on the assumption that it wont, hopefully giving this discussion fairness), now because of how I placed the unit (we will say there are 6 spawn and the Juggerlord) and how wound allocation works now there 2 Spawn dead without any saves as both middle parts of the each opponents deployment zones have no cover and the terrain is Symmetrical for fairness, he then fires at my Juggerlord unit again with his FW and because of weight of fire kills my Lord and another spawn then the missile sides from the Broadsides kill the rest of the spawn.. Ok so again heavy losses (Tau 4-0 through Slay the Warlord, First blood and the kill point for the Juggerlord) but I can live with it, plus I now know the units I need to take out ASAP which are the pathfinders, plus my Berserker's in the middle (as I would have no other place to put them if I wanted to get into assault quickly) have not been touched and both plasma squads roll to rally and fail running away another 7-8" moving off the board
Ok my first turn, I move my Berserker's up front head on to combat the gunline (since that is their role on the Battlefield) as well as the Maulerfiends to combat the pathfinders hiding among the ruins, I then run the Berserker's 3" as that is what I rolled and I did not have the range to shoot and then in the assault phase (seizing the chance and would know it would help me out) charge the FW behind the ADL as I was too far out for the pathfinders, but alas I fail my charge distance. Now tau players Turn two... I then start thinking and praying to the dark gods that my saves help me live..
Tau turn 2: 2 units of crisis suits enter the Battlefield with a PEN commander via DS landing on target, pathfinders again marker light away, this time at the Maulerfiends both get 2 marker lights on them each fiend, in the shooting phase the missile sides then fire using up the marker lights at the fiends glancing, reducing one to one HP and one to 2 HP... okay they are still alive yey ... the crisis suits then blow up both fiends through their shooting ... Oh.. then all riptides fire at the Berserker unit killing them all with overcharge blasts... within two turns the CSM player is tabled and cannot place his drakes on the board as the CSM player does not have any units on the board..
Ok so now the CSM player has to think how to beat the Tau with his CSM, he knows he will be using CC units since majority of his units are CC in the codex..
-Deep striking? Ok well CSM knows that there is lots of interceptor fire, so CSM player knows that its going to get lit up and probably die.
-Outflanking/getting stuff out of reserve close to the Tau players units? the amount of interceptor also prevents that.
-Allies? great so now that CSM player who only wanted CSM now has to buy another army to find ways to beat that list.
Now this has not been "mathammered" and this has not been a personal experience, but the simulation is deliberate, and whilst I know there will be "those people" who will comment saying that "people don't use KB" or "it wont scatter on target all the time" if your one of those people then you have clearly missed the point of the post beyond an epic scale. This is to show Tau players why people get frustrated with their army, the CSM player had only goy halfway to the board, with no chance of surviving, tell me would you like to be in the CSM players shoes? to get wiped off the board within two turns finding out that your units you want to choose had no chance of survival? this is what irks many people of the tau codex, they have essentially made Tau Codex: Team America: World Police, guns blazing without little or any thought required, blazing their guns as if they were having a BBQ, they cover there weakness that well..
On the other side of the Argument, I do feel empathy for the Tau players that don't get games as I had this problem sort of, as once I had proxied a Lifta-droppa battlewagon (which I was intending to buy when I had the cash) for an Apoc game (back before the Current IA: Apoc book when they could glance D6 times still in 6th) against my opponents who was a Necron opponent and a tau opponent (the Tau Codex was the current one people use today), now The Tau player was great, nothing wrong with the Tau, however the Necron players stated acting up on one occasion which put me off Apoc..
Basically I was using my Orks with a Stompa and a Skullhammer battle fortress (this was also the Apoc edition before the current one) it was around 600pts aside, but I digress, the Necron/Tau went first turn and managed to kill off a vindicator (giving them first blood) I had a LR reduced to 1 HP (as I was using Orks and CSM) from gauss fire and both super-heavies were reduced to 2-4 HP (remember that Stompas had 12 HP alongside the Skull hammer) with combined effort from both armies... Ok so heavy hitting but that's ok as its part of the game... Now my first turn, I glance my Necron opponents only Monolith once with my LR I then fired at the Monolith again with my Lifta-Droppa wagon, I hit it then drag it somewhere then glance it 3 more times wrecking it...
My Necron opponent then stated having a right go at me saying how broken and OP it was and unless I bought the appropriate model my opponent would not let me use it again, this moment took 20mins wasting game time and the Tau opponent left the gaming area to the store as he was sick of the arguing, I was just struck on the spot and just told my opponent that I liked the unit for its look and rules (as you Tau players would for your stuff), we did get back to the game in which the Necron Opponent killed the Lifta-droppa with some Crypteks (so it got one shotted off the board anyway?) and both super-heavies died, The Necron Opponent then makes a remark saying how the gauss weapons did not have to worry about super-heavies... this ticked me off real bad after all that whining he made about the wagon, but I kept it to myself.
I then have told myself that I would never play Apoc again, in which since then I have only played it once against a different opponent, I also have abandoned my Orks after that as I just felt crap for using them after that game, since then I occasionally use them. What I am trying to say to Tau players is that I do understand that it would be really annoying not getting games, after all you spent around £150 for those riptides and more for the rest, and I can understand on some level that it would be frustrating not being able to get games with the stuff you bought as was I with the Lifta-Droppa, but in all honesty without trying to sound harsh or snarky, but maybe you have to turn down that amp from 11 to maybe 7, by all means use stuff you want to use, but don't go all spammy with your best units unless you want tourney practice, in which case always alert your opponent before playing, if your playing just a normal game try to turn the volume down, and don't be surprised if someone does not want to play your list, after all you know how deadly your list is and so does your opponent, same here I wouldn't act or be surprised if my opponent refuse a game against me if I were to use Typhus plague zombies with triple Drakes. Maybe with the spare points you will find a new unit you will like (yeah it may not amount to the same power as the Riptide but it maybe one of those units that you may like just because the unit looks or feels on the battlefield is awesome for you just saying but trying different things has its own bonuses as well as the multiple units you used before hand ).
The point of the post was to show both sides (who have segregated themselves and now started attacking each other by the throat, in what appears to be violating rule 1 of Dakka which is to be polite from my perspective). each others argument without the sharpened stakes and keeping the civility of this discussion. If anyone starts to cherry pick my post to use to your arguing advantage then you have clearly missed the point of my post and therefore just showing how stuck up you are about your side of the argument.
The things that imbalancing does to us all in 40k eh?
I don't have a problem with Tau in general, I like the Riptide model and think it looks really cool my gripe is with the filthy elves... I mean Eldar and those rusty tin heads... I mean Necrons
Wow, that post was rather pointless, but you road in on your high horse anyway. You seem to care enough about this thread and pay enough attention to put up a block of dribble. I normally don't insult people's writing or posts like this, but wow, that was a poorly written mess. The points you attempted to make could have been made in a quarter of the text.
Now, I actually read it and wish I could get that precious minute back.
Though, I may have misunderstood, if your point was to bring levity and make the thread feel ridiculous, you did quite well.
I'm going to reiterate my points.
Tau aren't as OP as people think. The competitive scene is changing to show that, if you still think otherwise, pay more attention to the Meta. Tau need allies or end up as allies themselves and usually with Eldar. Eldar are far more frightening than Tau and vastly more powerful. Daemons are very strong, so are Space Marines, and CSM can still pull its weight.
So, anyone who is whining that Tau are OP, take a look at 6th Ed Eldar, then the history of 40k. It happens. It changes. Deal.
If you are a casual gamer, which there is nothing wrong with, stop whining. You play for fun and don't worry about optimizing, so don't worry if armies aren't perfectly balanced. Your problem is when you want to play a casual game against a competitive player.
I'm getting sick and tired of people complaining..."I'm a casual gamer and like to take fluffy lists.... but I hate that I can't beat competitive armies." If you've got a problem talk to your casual opponents.
Casual players and Competitive players need to communicate their expectations and wants clearly. For most its a continuum, and if the gap between players is too wide problems arise. Find opponents who are looking for the same type of game you are.
Effective communication would solve all of our problems. Don't expect everyone else to play the same game you do.
Good for you, you proved my point. You have the hours needed to build an army, but no time to paint it despite the numerous ways to speed paint (airbrush, dipping, power washing) and making excuses for it. Where there is a will there is a way. I don't harp on anyone that is trying. But it takes the slightest bit of effort to paint an army.
And you have proved mine, maybe it takes the slightest bit of effort to paint an army but not if you want to paint the army WELL. Yes, a life outside of my hobby is an "excuse" you must be blessed to have so much free time on your hands. And for your information with all that I still have a partially painted army that is being finished up what I don't like is the label of "everyone is lazy and making excuses" as its a laughable comment. Saying taking care of your family or serving your country is an "excuse" is ridiculous, so kudos for you man for having ample free time.
Like gmaleron, I don't paint nearly as much as I used to. Too busy with work and fething these days. As for playing hard-to-counter lists, bring it. I don't mind getting tabled. I'll figure out how to stomp your list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/29 02:02:38
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
2013/10/29 03:07:59
Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
Seems like many people just used my thread to complain about other things but what the topic was......... not what I was going for lol. However, I think the problem stems from the fact that Tau get a lot of benefits in this edition with the rules that favor shooting armies, and since shooting is all they can do, thats what makes many players feel like that they are unbalanced. Now like I have said earlier, the Tau are not OP, however its no fun playing against an Army that has all of the answers for overwatch, skyfire, and ignoring cover all in one book for fairly cheap units. Many people at my store seeing Tau being tweaked in a few areas, as they are by far the army receiving the most complaints from people at the moment, as they have become a competitive players dream army in terms of smashing opponents, because they can do it so easily without even trying. Its not hard to make competitive list with Tau, if anything its the easiest thing to do because many Tau players just make a gunline and say come at me, which no one wants to play against as the rules make it way to one-sided.
My only beef or if you can even call it that is that I feel the marker-light spam should only be used in the regular shooting phase, and not be allowed in the skyfire or over watch. With so much marker light spamming these days, it makes it impossible for assaulting armies to get even close to opponents a lot of the time, and that I feel makes it really unbalanced. Whats the point of even having asaulting units anymore if they can't even assault turn 1? Sure many people (aka Tau and IG players) would say that would be too strong for armies such as BA's and Orks, but at least it brought variety to the game. Also, Eldar are a lot differnt then the Tau, as yes they can be strong but in the process, the trade-off is that Eldar have very few units on the field, as there models are extremely expensive, especially compared to the Tau, which is why I haven't had issues with Eldar as they have elite, but small forces that I can usually deal with.
The fact of the matter remains is that it's not the Tau who are too strong in themselves, but the rules for this edition of 40k make them extremely hard to fight, and its obvious the idiots at GWHQ didn't think things through and now they are having to deal with this issue. as the GW rep at my store has heard that they keep receiving complaints to how unbalanced the Tau book is, not necessary from the book itself, but from the rules that GW made in this edition buy strengthening the shooting phase and making assaulting null. Also, I think the issue is that far too many power gamers play Tau just because its the easiest army to spam certain units and one that allows them to utterly destroy people as 40k is all about shooting,
I will play Tau if they aren't bringing the usual gunline, Riptide and Broadside spam list with a hundred marker lights, but thats rare these days and I won't play in a game where I know it will be no fun and one where I will get frustrated in. I can admit it, Im the type of guy who voices his frustration but thats who I am, and though its not like Im complaining 24/7 about it, but I will get frustrated if I play an Army like that, and it takes the fun out of the game completely.
2013/10/29 03:17:23
Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
Is there a function difference between OP and undercosted? Because I feel that a lot of Tau units are undercosted for how the rules of 6th edition work. Basically, shooting troops need to be more expensive and assault troops need to be cheaper. In some cases, a LOT cheaper.
And I've said it several times that Eldar are even worse for sheer lethality and undercostedness. The Wave Serpent has finally stolen the title from the Vendetta.
2013/10/29 07:51:10
Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
You my sir are a hero, I will agree that the Tau bring in a new meta of covering weaknesses, if all codices were like this I think less people would travel to other TT wargames, problem is quite frankly the Tau made a big power leap instead of new codex power creep (to you naysayers please grab the old BT codex, or DA codex....or really any out of date codex and try to play against the newer codices....idk how SoB do it).
By having a seriously powerful codex with the exception of our lack of anti-air options. :p
The only reason you don't see threads complaining about outflanking melta dominions is because so few people have to face them in the first place.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2013/10/29 07:58:52
Subject: Have you Seen this Happening: Tau Players not Getting Games?
Martel732 wrote: Is there a function difference between OP and undercosted? Because I feel that a lot of Tau units are undercosted for how the rules of 6th edition work. Basically, shooting troops need to be more expensive and assault troops need to be cheaper. In some cases, a LOT cheaper.
And I've said it several times that Eldar are even worse for sheer lethality and undercostedness. The Wave Serpent has finally stolen the title from the Vendetta.
nothing the tau have is undercosted , they pay for everything . serpents are cheap either . What both those armies do is show bad design in other codex. Tau and eldar have great synergy between units , you can almost feel that both those codex were designed with armies in mind and not just randomly making up single units . But I guess when someone designes a faction you play for decades it is different then some random dude being forced to do copy pasta and add new units the sells department thinks new codex should have.
8k points
3k points
3k points
Night Lords (40k): 3500pts
Klan Zaw Klan: 4000pts
, just posting final thoughts on my opinion of the whole thread.
W/L/D 6e 3/2/0
W/L/D 6e 0/2/0
