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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 07:27:35
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Twisting Tzeentch Horror
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 07:27:54
DS:80S++G++MB+I+Pw40k92/f#+D+A++/areWD156R++T(R)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 07:30:41
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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DeathReaper wrote: Abandon wrote:
At any point was the wound unsaved?
Answer: Yes. Nothing else about the wound matters to ES
(emphasis mine)
The underlined can not be true otherwise we are not treating the wound as saved...
Plus, you do not know if you actually have an unsaved wound until FNP is resolved because you could have to treat the wound as saved instead of Unsaved.
The process for determining a unsaved wound is on page 15, the process is in full, and none of those steps require me to check for FNP, or even take the effects into account.
When is a wound take on either the 'Saved' or 'Unsaved' status? - On the pass or fail of armour / cover / Invun save.
Am I required to check for FNP before the wound is Saved or unsaved in that process? - No
Do we play the game based on the changes of a special rule that hasn't been resolved? - No
I know I have a unsaved wound, the rules tell me so. For that unsaved wound at that point in time to be anything but a unsaved wound, FNP has to go back in time and change it. My last few pages have been about why that does not happen-
Treat (the wound) as having been saved
VS
(the wound) is treated as having been saved
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/02 07:49:19
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 07:50:21
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Nem wrote:
The process for determining a unsaved wound is on page 15, the process is in full, and none of those steps require me to check for FNP, or even take the effects into account.
Re-read the FNP rules, it is in there.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 08:31:09
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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DeathReaper wrote: Nem wrote:
The process for determining a unsaved wound is on page 15, the process is in full, and none of those steps require me to check for FNP, or even take the effects into account.
Re-read the FNP rules, it is in there.
Where does FNP say it doesn't know if the wound is unsaved until its resolved? FNP tells you the wound is unsaved, until its resolution.
''When a model with this special rule suffers a unsaved wound'...'Roll a D6 each time a unsaved wound is suffered'....
So is the wound Unknown? No, its Unsaved, FNP acknowledges, at that time, the wound is unsaved.
edit] If you are referring to ''can avoid being wounded'' (Note, this is not referring to a unsaved, or saved wound, just the 'wound', in fact it uses the verb form 'wounded' so its referring to an action, not the object (read between the lines))
Which is what you do upon a pass, you do not take the wound on the model, you have avoided putting that wound on the wounds stat line of the model. The model has avoided -1 W. It has avoided the modification that happens when you suffer a unsaved wound. I have applied that rule, without changing the fact there was a unsaved wound.
It doesn't equate to - we go back in time and the wound disappears from existence.
In fact those words make a good case to FNP only avoiding being 'wounded' (the modification to the stat line) and not other things that might have happened because you suffered a unsaved wound, it does not avoid the wound, the wound is a object, wounded is a verb, an action, so it is avoiding an action - one of the 'actions' a wound goes through.
As it can't avoid being 'wounded' (as it is when a hit roll is passed, state before saved) or the 'Wound' (when given the status of saved or unsaved) as they have all already happened, I can't do anything to 'Avoid being on the toilet a hour ago' now, it CAN avoid being wounded as it is applied to the stat line, so It must be referring to the wound at the time the wound makes the modification to the W / Wound characteristic.
Which means FNP is powerless to stop, halt, change or block any other special rule which only required a unsaved wound.
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This message was edited 32 times. Last update was at 2013/11/02 10:04:38
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 11:22:48
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Sinewy Scourge
Crawfordsville Indiana
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Remember, FnP is not a save, as such treating as saved does not equal saved. It is in the FnP rule that "treat as saved" "is not a saving throw". So no matter how you say treat as=is, the rule specifically calls it out as not. The wound is unsaved, even if the end effect is no wound.
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All the worlds a joke and the people merely punchlines
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 11:50:45
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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megatrons2nd wrote:Remember, FnP is not a save, as such treating as saved does not equal saved. "Treated as" must mean IS otherwise the rules break Examples: If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon. But its not. So it cant make any attacks Accordingly, all vehicles are treated as being Weapon Skill l, provided that they moved in the previous turn - otherwise they are treated as being Weapon Skill 0. But their weapon skill isnt 0 or 1 so it doesnt have that stat at all. Therefor you cant attack vehicles in CC While a Chariot cannot strike blows in close combat, it's an excellent fighting platform for its rider. Accordingly, the rider of the Chariot is treated as being in base contact with allenemy models that are themselves in contact with the Chariot. But its not in base contact so cant strike. For the purposes of determining which weapons a Heavy vehicle can fire (and at what Ballistic Skill), Heavy vehicles are always treated as having remained Stationary. But they are not stationary ... so cant fire more than 1 weapon with full BS after moving.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/11/02 12:35:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 12:20:11
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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The Hive Mind
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Abandon wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Abandon wrote:rigeld2 wrote:And by allowing ES to trigger and apply you're not discounting the wound. The rules say you must discount it. Please cite the rule allowing you to ignore FNP.
It already triggered. The fact that the trigger was retrospectively removed does not change that fact.
It was removed and the wound must be discounted. Meaning applying ES is against the rules.
It's almost like rules matter or something. FNP specifically tells you the wound was saved and must be discounted.
Or do you also remove single wound models that pass FNP?
ES does not care what becomes of the wound. You did read it I hope. I mean, you quoted it so ...I'd think so but you don't seem to know that it is not dependent on the wound after it's triggered. The model has an unsaved wound, it triggers ES and FNP. ES does not care about the wound any more than that so FNP can have its way with the unsaved wound and it won't change the ES effect at all. The only question that matters for ES on this subject is:
At any point was the wound unsaved?
Answer: Yes. Nothing else about the wound matters to ES
So, according to you, models with 1 wound are removed if they pass FNP. After all, the trigger to remove them from the table happens when they are reduced to zero wounds, and the wound reduction happens on an unsaved wound.
Congrats on making FNP useless?
The question regarding FNP:
Can you treat 'the wound' as having been saved without treating everything else as if the wound had been saved?
Answer: Yes. The wound is all that matters to FNP and it does not permit you to change anything else.
That's laughable. How are you treating the wound as being saved if you are applying an effect that requires the wound to be unsaved?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 12:20:23
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 15:29:16
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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He is using FNP like every other rule in the game, he applies its effects after the rule is activated and not before, as you propose.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 15:29:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 15:35:57
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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The Hive Mind
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copper.talos wrote:He is using FNP like every other rule in the game, he applies its effects after the rule is activated and not before, as you propose.
And get FNP specifically (as in, in its rules) alters what happened before it's resolved.
It must or it would be literally useless.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 15:48:44
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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He has explained quite a few times and very accurately why FNP works after it has been activated and not before.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 15:50:53
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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copper.talos wrote:He has explained quite a few times and very accurately why FNP works after it has been activated and not before.
When you activate ES how are you treating the wound?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 15:56:31
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Why don't you read the thread before posting? This question has been answered in the 1st page.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 15:57:11
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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copper.talos wrote:Why don't you read the thread before posting? This question has been answered in the 1st page.
Why dont you answer the question?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 15:58:25
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Because it's been answered a zilion times by now. Maybe you want me to repost all 9 pages?
Edit: for a quick answer look at Nem's last post...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 15:59:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 15:59:14
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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copper.talos wrote:Because it's been answered a zilion times by now. Maybe you want me to repost all 9 pages?
Please less hostility. Thanks.
So i answer it for you. You treat it as an unsaved wound.
So my next question.
What is part of suffering an unsaved wound?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 15:59:54
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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(Re)Read Nem's last post. His answer is a lot more complete and eloquent from any of mine due to the language barrier.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 16:01:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 16:01:24
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Okay i also answer that question for you.
Part of suffering an unsaved wound is reducing the models wound count by 1 and if the model has no remaining wounds it being removed as a casualty.
Now my next question. If feel no pain is passed do you reduce the models wound count by 1?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 16:02:28
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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I guess you still haven't read Nem's post...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 16:05:02
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Okay i answer that question for you too.
If you pass feel no pain you dont reduce the models wound count by 1.
Now my next question. If part of suffering an unsaved wound is reducing the models wound count by 1 and you pass feel no pain and therefor dont reduce the models wound count by 1 did you suffer an unsaved wound?
And now to nems post. Nems post assumes that reducing the models wound count by 1 isnt part of suffering an unsaved wound. This is the flaw in his argumentation.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 16:08:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 16:19:23
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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The Hive Mind
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Nem wrote:Where does FNP say it doesn't know if the wound is unsaved until its resolved? FNP tells you the wound is unsaved, until its resolution.
And what does its resolution say?
edit] If you are referring to ''can avoid being wounded'' (Note, this is not referring to a unsaved, or saved wound, just the 'wound', in fact it uses the verb form 'wounded' so its referring to an action, not the object (read between the lines))
Which is what you do upon a pass, you do not take the wound on the model, you have avoided putting that wound on the wounds stat line of the model. The model has avoided -1 W. It has avoided the modification that happens when you suffer a unsaved wound. I have applied that rule, without changing the fact there was a unsaved wound.
It doesn't equate to - we go back in time and the wound disappears from existence.
In fact those words make a good case to FNP only avoiding being 'wounded' (the modification to the stat line) and not other things that might have happened because you suffered a unsaved wound, it does not avoid the wound, the wound is a object, wounded is a verb, an action, so it is avoiding an action - one of the 'actions' a wound goes through.
As it can't avoid being 'wounded' (as it is when a hit roll is passed, state before saved) or the 'Wound' (when given the status of saved or unsaved) as they have all already happened, I can't do anything to 'Avoid being on the toilet a hour ago' now, it CAN avoid being wounded as it is applied to the stat line, so It must be referring to the wound at the time the wound makes the modification to the W / Wound characteristic.
Which means FNP is powerless to stop, halt, change or block any other special rule which only required a unsaved wound.
That would be true if the actual rules didn't tell you to discount the wound and that it has been saved. You can ignore that fact all you want, but your position will be incorrect when you do.
After passing FNP the wound is saved. You are applying an effect that requires an unsaved wound to a model that has not suffered an unsaved wound. This is against the rules. Cite permission to ignore that fact. Automatically Appended Next Post: copper.talos wrote:He has explained quite a few times and very accurately why FNP works after it has been activated and not before.
And he's as incorrect as he's always been because he's ignoring what's actually written in favor of inserting his bias.
I am saying he's biased as I don't see any other explanation for why he refuses to acknowledge - or address - that his stance literally breaks rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 16:20:52
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 16:43:49
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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Nem is a she, my avatars is me,
As for not reducing the wound,you don't because FNP addresses that 'treat (the wound) as having been saved'
FNP happens after a unsaved wound, before modifying the characteristics of 'Wounds'. Now, applying the effect of FNP, the next action is the modification. We check, and the wound is saved. Literal permission to do so in FNP 'Avoid being wounded' (spoke about that part on my post this morning). So you avoid the -w modification (not words 40k uses for that, but you understand my meaning)
We know special rules can interrupt the order, nothing suggests any can be played backwards
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It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 16:59:03
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Sorry about the confusion! Where I come from you don't get to see any girls playing 40K
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 18:28:50
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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[DCM]
GW Public Relations Manager (Privateer Press Mole)
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This thread is starting to generate alerts--and several posts are borderline passive/aggressive. Let's tone it down and stay objective please.
Ryan
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Adepticon TT 2009---Best Heretical Force
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 18:38:14
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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The Hive Mind
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Nem wrote:Nem is a she, my avatars is me,
As for not reducing the wound,you don't because FNP addresses that 'treat (the wound) as having been saved'
FNP happens after a unsaved wound, before modifying the characteristics of 'Wounds'. Now, applying the effect of FNP, the next action is the modification. We check, and the wound is saved. Literal permission to do so in FNP 'Avoid being wounded' (spoke about that part on my post this morning). So you avoid the -w modification (not words 40k uses for that, but you understand my meaning)
We know special rules can interrupt the order, nothing suggests any can be played backwards
Sorry about the "he"s.
You are still, even using your interpretation, not discounting the wound or treating it as saved. The FNP rules require that you do both.
Why are you applying an unsaved wound effect to a model that has not suffered an unsaved wound?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 19:05:58
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Sinewy Scourge
Crawfordsville Indiana
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To those that say FnP becomes a saved wound;
How do you play it against a hexrifle?
The hexrifle specifically states no saves of any kind, as such rolling FnP breaks the hexrifle's rule. But as it is not an instant death weapon(being removed from play) than you break the FnP rule if you don't test.
Which one takes precedence? They both use the unsaved wound as a trigger. FnP is not allowed as "treat as saved" equals "is saved" and "no saves of any kind are allowed".
The only logical sequences are that all special rules take effect and stack, as per the multiple special rules bit I quoted earlier in this thread, or using the rule on page 9 establishing the order in which the events would take place.
Meaning in my turn FnP after ES, or the Hexrifle, and in your turn FnP first.
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All the worlds a joke and the people merely punchlines
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 20:07:04
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Actually, thats not what the FNP rule says.
To break it somewhat down for me.
RAW:
Theres no possible rule anyone could cite to convince the opposing side. RAW is therefor unclear in my book although i would argue for the no ES side.
HIWPI:
SInce i dont play an army with FNP or ES i wouldnt really be bothered. But im playing GK so Vindicare are effected by the ruling at hand. What im thinking is that with playing FNP saves wounds for all purposes less rule problems occur and i would take that route.
megatrons2nd wrote:To those that say FnP becomes a saved wound;
How do you play it against a hexrifle?
The hexrifle specifically states no saves of any kind, as such rolling FnP breaks the hexrifle's rule.
FNP is not a save. As noted in the FNP rule.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/11/02 20:12:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 20:58:49
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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Np both, it's one on the many problems communicating over the internet's. I think at this point we can agree we're not going to be able to persuade each other without resorting to the tau methodology*
Best to end with smiley faces all around, as we all got a little heated  .
*defiantly implying brain washing
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It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 23:35:20
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Sinewy Scourge
Crawfordsville Indiana
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Mywik wrote:
Actually, thats not what the FNP rule says.
To break it somewhat down for me.
RAW:
Theres no possible rule anyone could cite to convince the opposing side. RAW is therefor unclear in my book although i would argue for the no ES side.
HIWPI:
SInce i dont play an army with FNP or ES i wouldnt really be bothered. But im playing GK so Vindicare are effected by the ruling at hand. What im thinking is that with playing FNP saves wounds for all purposes less rule problems occur and i would take that route.
megatrons2nd wrote:To those that say FnP becomes a saved wound;
How do you play it against a hexrifle?
The hexrifle specifically states no saves of any kind, as such rolling FnP breaks the hexrifle's rule.
FNP is not a save. As noted in the FNP rule.
So then you agree that treat as saved does not equal saved. Which transitively means you agree that ES still functions.
If not, then you agree that FnP may not be used against the Hexrifle.
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All the worlds a joke and the people merely punchlines
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 23:47:20
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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megatrons2nd wrote:
So then you agree that treat as saved does not equal saved. Which transitively means you agree that ES still functions.
If not, then you agree that FnP may not be used against the Hexrifle.
I dont. Feel no pain can be used against the hex rifle since its not a save and is therefor not ignored by an ability that ignores saves. Theres no conflict.
What you are arguing has nothing to do with the question discussed in this thread.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/02 23:50:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 23:50:19
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Wrong; FNP is specifically not a save; it converts an unsaved wound to a saved one, and erases the unsaved part from ever existing.
Again: part of having an unsaved wound is reducing a models wounds by 1. Stating ES operates means the models wounds must have been reduced by 1.
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