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Hello, Dakka! I am a Blood Angels player and having just gotten my BA killed almost to the man against a work colleague in his FIRST EVER GAME, I have decided I need to switch up my Chapter. I bought the new starter set this summer, with the Dark Angels models, as I was thinking of running them as an Allied Contingent to my BA (I know, more Meks, high cost, and so on, but t would at least pass the time until, perhaps, a new BA codex comes out some year).

So, I have the DA Terminators, a Librarian, a Captain, 3 Bikes, and the tactical squad. I also bought a Ravenwing Command Squad set, not knowing whether to simply build the Apothecary, etc. or to make them into Black Knights. I have some old Veterans (same as the "new" veterans, evidently) as well. I can also "counts as" sub in elements of my BA army.

Given that I haven't used the Ravenwing+Deathwing tactic before, are there any players out there willing to offer up a decent strategy for fighting a "shoot and run" Eldar list? He ran a unit of 9 Warp Spiders last time that absolutely destroyed me. He even killed my Predator on its side armour. So, can I counter his speed with Ravenwing, and then get close enough to him to kill him with Terminators?

Any thoughts about dealing with that "Shield wave blast" that he kept blasting me with from his dedicated transports?

Anyway, I appreciate any guidance--I have only played against Eldar a couple of times, and every time they have shot my BA to death. The only thing I'm good at killing is War Walkers.

I know almost nothing about BA or DA but I can offer some input on the Eldar side.

Try to take out his transports before they can disembark the unit if you can. Trust me, us Eldar players HATE when the transport goes out before it reaches it's destination. It ruins our plans. Plus the explosion damage really works on Eldar units as they are usually weak. However, don't rush in and shoot everything at the transports if that will leave you out in the open. Your vehicles' superior armor doesn't mean anything vs. Eldar since they have Lances. So keep that in mind.

The Serpent Shield is really powerful tool when paired with the Scatter Laser which gives TL rule. What it does, in case you don't know, is it converts a penetrating hit into a glancing one with 2+ on hits on front and side. When the wave serpent uses as a weapon, it gets turned off for 1 turn. This is when he's vulnerable and this is when you should shoot the Wave Serpent.

Warp Spiders can be a pain indeed. I haven't had luck with melee with them so you can try to engage them in melee to tarpit them if you can catch them.

get a devastator squad with a PFG libby to cast rerolls on them. bye bye infantry and light tanks. remember 24 inches of death on the termies, close range helps them not you. staying out of rapid fire range helps a huge amount against bladestorm.

Eldar aspect warriors are quite skilled at melee, but not powerful.
In cc, they'll beat you to the punch, which turns out to be a wet slap. Only power weapons really make them any good, so watch out for them.

There's no real protection against the Serpent's strike, but the wave is AP-. Even the SL is only AP6.
As mentioned, save your attacks against the WS for the turn its shield is down, then hammer it. If that stops it firing the wave, that's a win, too.

Since monofilament and shuriken weapons are 'rending', assume your have no armour saves, and go for it. Eldar fall over to a stiff breeze, and massed troops charging at them makes them run for the hills. Just watch out for overwatch.

For BA, this shouldn't be a great challenge. Eldar are fast, and can dance out of LoS after shooting. Jump on them ASAP.

Try to be everywhere, and there's nowhere for the Eldar to run to.

BA are the most annoying army to fight for my eldar - they take away my speed advantage.

assault his tanks if you can - you hit on the rear armour and there is no serpent field there.

Use all fast stuff.

Have a tac squad at the back holding your objectives led by Corbulo - his 3+/2+fnp ruins eldar shooting at that squad.

Mephiston is great against wraith knights - take a DA libby, stick him on a bike and give him the 4++ field, then run Meph next to him for a bit till he gets upfield.

And - just a side note - everytime I've done a pick up game with some one, for some reason, I always lose. It doesn't make a difference what army I take.

Try taking your BA again and see if its the same result

dark angels and blood angels have some nifty combos you can pull off. I advocate the allying of DA w/ libby on the bike w/ PFG to accompany mephy. this allows you to bring 1 RW bike attack squad an a black knight squad, the best of the best imo of the DA codex. which synergize very well with the fast ASM and mech of BA. remember also sang priests are a must for every ASM in BA corbulo is an EXCELLENT tank. 2+ FnP w/ a reroll per game can really ruin anything str7 or lowers day.

Eldar are pretty good at killing marines with mass bladestorm/monofilamint weapons and speed. S6 counters most marine armor, and all the ability to ignore armor ruins power armor.

Serpents are particularly difficult to deal with from shooting. High S low AP low rate of fire weapons(e.g. lascannons) are easily jinked/demoted to glances by the shield. High dakka hull point stripping is also jinked, and Av12 negates most of it(autocannons, assault cannons). The best way to get a serpent is to assault. Even a hammer of wrath from a bike can glance the thing, and krak grenades/melta bombs up the tailpipe usually do it in. You have to catch them first, which is difficult but doable with bikes or durable jump troops.

Warp spiders are dead lethal with rending, S7 against tanks and S6 against troops. Power armor won't survive against mass wounds, you will fail saves eventually. FNP helps, but is not a guarantee. Kill em ASAP.

Once you pop the serpents, eldar are T3 and die in droves to bolters and other dakka. A whirlwind is something to consider. It can be hidden, is cheap and dead lethal against anything not in a serpent. Also, most eldar suck in assault if you can catch them. We will slap you around real fast, but then marines strike back and eldar die. Only a few eldar units are decent in assault, and they are specialist. Shoot these with bolters, assault the rest.

Terminator armor is hit or miss, as the rending negates it, but you can tank mass S6 wounds. Mephiston is also hit or miss for this reason.

You never need Ap2 against eldar for the most part. Only 6 units in the codex have a 2+ armor save, but most characters have a 4++. Focus on mass attacks, and hitting fast.

Wow! That's a bunch of great advice--I really appreciate it all. I am glad to hear that there are some solid combinations of BA and DA, and the insights into how to attack Eldar are very helpful, too. The "Get to the Assault phase" advice seems to be prevalent, so I will try to work up a list that has high mobility and units that can deliver some kills if they can make it into close combat.

Have any of you Eldar players faced a fast Vindicator? I don't currently have the model, but it's something I have been thinking about--taking advantage of the BA fast rule on tanks to get that high strength template weapon into range. I know it can then be killed, but if I could take out most of a warp spider unit with it, it would be worth it.

I totally hear you about Corbulo--I have also used him and a Divination Librarian in a drop pod with Sternguard veterans--they can shoot up some stuff, and might be able to take out a transport as you discussed.

I did notice that none of the advice advocated taking the Deathwing termies--I guess I will avoid that and just go with the "Fast Attack" model you guys are suggesting.

Thanks again for all the advice and comments!

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:

Have any of you Eldar players faced a fast Vindicator? I don't currently have the model, but it's something I have been thinking about--taking advantage of the BA fast rule on tanks to get that high strength template weapon into range. I know it can then be killed, but if I could take out most of a warp spider unit with it, it would be worth it.

Ironically, the last 5 times I have seen a vindicator, warp spiders were responsible for blowing up 3 of the 5. Fast or not, vindicators are very chancy against eldar. Our foot soldiers will have cover, or die, not really a big deal losing some guardians to a splat cannon, wastes the shot. Against tanks it can be deadly, but with holo fields 50% of your damaging hits do nothing. Against serpents the energy field will negate the pin 5/6 times, giving you 1 in 18 odds of a penetrating hit going through a wave serpent. Front armor 13 helps, but if I can see side game over. Lance weapons will also ruin your day without cover. Once your close enough to shoot the cannon, meltas, wraithcannons and death spinners start to get into range. The best use is on footslogging wraithguard, as it negates their durability.

Warp spiders love to drop in on rear armor and ruin tanks left and right. However, spiders die just fine to bolter fire. Don't be fooled by 3+ saves, T3 means lots of saves and the spiders die to a good volly. Now, a big unit blobbed up is a prime target sure, but if your opponent does not spread out to mitigate the blast it is their loss, not your win.

Now, they are still good and a threat, but as a lone fast tank, don't expect a lot. With other armor saturation they are useful for more Av and a quick threat.

Thanks, @Sterling, for the advice. Shame--it sounds cool. Maybe if I took THREE of them... Of course, I don't want to either buy or paint three Vindicators. Oh well.

Anyway, I really appreciate it; it doesn't surprise me, but it is a little disappointing. So, what I seem to be hearing is that a viable way to fight Eldar troops is with Bolters--would a Heavy Bolter equipped Devastator squad work in that regard too? Might be good to plop them near an Objective (I know they can't hold it) and shoot exposed troops.

@Skinnerreal, what works well for "Hammering" wave serpents while their shield is down? Have you seen good examples of massed fire coming from BA or Meks? Do people run multiples of anything to get that firebase against Eldar vehicles?

I really don't fit will in the Meta game right now because I collected BA with an aesthetic in mind, so I don't have multiples of anything except Tac squads and Rhinos. So, if I'm going to buy more models, I need to know how to use them in a game to help me in some precise way.

Another question: does the Stormraven do well against Eldar? Or do lances just tear it up with its 3 HP? What about in a game where it's the only Flyer? (my buddy disdains flyers...I might teach him the error of his ways...if I can roll well and get the thing on the board before Turn 4!)

I've always hated deeps strikers with eldar - no interceptor and as I don't run guardians I have no bubble wrap either.
Sternguard in a pod are annoying, Frag dreads in pods are worse - they come down and use flamers to ruin a squad.
Meph works fairly well.
Storm ravens work - the only interceptor eldar get is off the aegis defence line. The eldar fliers are also made of paper.
A naked Baal predator will work better than a vindicator. (I've never had much trouble from even fast vindicators) - especially if your opponent takes wraithguard - no cover save or armour save.
A normal Pred is annoying too - bar serpents and fire prisms, most of my ranges are up to 36" - that pred has the speed to lurk at the back and chip away at wraithlords from where they can't do anything about it.
ATM - you've still got vanguard vets that can charge after deep striking. That may be worth considering, especially if you go up against Dark Reapers

I found that a dev squad with four lascannons and a librarian with a pfg level 2 for prescience and hopefully foreboding or misfortune to combat those pesky cover saves. Luckily when I used this combo I gained fnp and scoring for the unit not to mention a pred Annihilator nearby benefiting from the pfg

Using this combo I was wiping the smile of my serpent spamming friends face

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:

@Skinnerreal, what works well for "Hammering" wave serpents while their shield is down? Have you seen good examples of massed fire coming from BA or Meks? Do people run multiples of anything to get that firebase against Eldar vehicles?

I haven't played against lots of armies, as my club only seems to have a few between us.
But, I meant to say, when the Serpent's shield is down, that is the time to use your high-S weapons on it.
When the shield is up, use S6+ to glance it down, as Pens will likely get downgraded. Save your Lascannons and Meltas for the turn after the shield has been fired.

Things that have worked for me are Devs with a libby behind an ADL. Put your sarge on the quadgun or ILC and the libby gives them rerolls on their misses.

Whirlwinds are nice and cheap.

Eldar has very little in the way of interceptor so use fliers.

with luck the devs can take care of the WS and the whirlwinds can pie plate the foot troops.

I hate playing against Warp Spiders and I have never had luck with termies.

Thanks to all! I definitely have some things I can put on the table to try to get up in his face and shoot back at him too! I appreciate the advice!

pantheralegionnaire wrote:what I seem to be hearing is that a viable way to fight Eldar troops is with Bolters--would a Heavy Bolter equipped Devastator squad work in that regard too? Might be good to plop them near an Objective (I know they can't hold it) and shoot exposed troops.

@Skinnerreal, what works well for "Hammering" wave serpents while their shield is down? Have you seen good examples of massed fire coming from BA or Meks? Do people run multiples of anything to get that firebase against Eldar vehicles?

I really don't fit will in the Meta game right now because I collected BA with an aesthetic in mind, so I don't have multiples of anything except Tac squads and Rhinos. So, if I'm going to buy more models, I need to know how to use them in a game to help me in some precise way.

Another question: does the Stormraven do well against Eldar? Or do lances just tear it up with its 3 HP? What about in a game where it's the only Flyer? (my buddy disdains flyers...I might teach him the error of his ways...if I can roll well and get the thing on the board before Turn 4!)

kelewan wrote:I found that a dev squad with four lascannons and a librarian with a pfg level 2 for prescience and hopefully foreboding or misfortune to combat those pesky cover saves. Luckily when I used this combo I gained fnp and scoring for the unit not to mention a pred Annihilator nearby benefiting from the pfg

You don't even need a heavy bolter. Its a nice little addition, but that standard issue boltgun does just fine. Not much in the army gives a damn about S5 over S4 and an extra shot/range.

Mass rhinos and tac squads can work to decent effect, but not against serpents without other threats. They are still great for protection and mobility. Some others have suggested drop pods which are great. So are bikes, even jump packs if your going strict BA. BA have nasty nasty dreads that can be placed on rear serpent armor, or facing footsloggers and outright ruin them. Drop pods are also tough enough eldar cant really deal with them short of committing real fire to them, but they actually threaten us. I have lost several games due to units breaking from some stupid stormbolter on a drop pod.

Stormravens are great against eldar so long as you fly. Hover and your getting shot down. Assault cannon, multi melta, maybe hurricane. Lances are S8, but get no bonus and eldar fliers will die when looked at funny. Granted, a crimson hunter can take out almost any flier in 1 shot, just the way it is. It also gets taken out in a single shot. Av12 everywhere negates S6 spam and even S7 snap shots won't really matter. I usually ignore ravens until they hover or I have some random dakka to throw their way.

Kelwan described a squad that will blow serpents to bits. However, a smart eldar player with anything like spiders, hawks, outflanking war walkers or lots of the first shot is going to target them.

The best way to drop a serpent is in assault, but yeah anything high S once the shield is down, low S shield up. Also, focus focus focus. 5 serpents with 1 hull point each is far more dangerous than 3 with 3 HP each. If you take a serpent down to 1 hull point, it is going to shoot the shield each time. Try and finish the job.