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From the comments in the thread here: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/10/forgeworld-becomes-official-for.html

aarondembskibowdenOctober 31, 2013 at 5:41 AM

It's been official since forever. People have always taken polite phrasing to justify their incorrect opinions on what's official.

To GW, it's all official, and always has been, Like it or not, that's the literal truth. To see it being heralded now as something new to adapt to (or worse, that it's still not official) is the very definition of missing the point.[/i]

aarondembskibowdenOctober 31, 2013 at 7:04 AM

That's the thing. GW has released that statement, but the fanbase mistake it as "Forge World is a different company, so they don't count."

GW have released the statement countless times. With the 40K Approved stamps. With Forge World stuff being on almost every page and in almost every army in White Dwarf for months. With every Imperial Armour book since #2 saying "Consider these official, but be nice if an opponent hasn't read the rules, so ask permission." Because of that misunderstanding becoming so entrenched, FW changed it in recent updates to "inform your opponent you're using these rules" with no "ask" at all.

That's how GW chose to release the statement. It's the same as Black Library being canon. To GW, it's all the same, it's all canon, it's all official. But because people apply their misunderstandings to how the company functions, you get this meme about needing "GW" to release a statement.

They did. They have. It's clear as day. People just don't realise what GW is, and take their misconceptions as truth.

aarondembskibowdenOctober 31, 2013 at 7:08 AM

I think the biggest misunderstanding is the triumvirate of "companies" that make up GW.

They're just departments, in the same building. Their designers all go to the same range meetings. Their top brass all talk, all plan, all discuss stuff.

There's a lot more communication than people seem to believe.

Is that a copy and paste from somewhere, muwhe? I'm not seeing the context here. I'm guessing it's not your text since it's italicized... clarification appreciated

Gosh, if he could just get "GW" somewhere anywhere to post to that effect, even on their FB page, it might be just enough to clear the air and make the lives of TOs/etc. everywhere that much easier ...

ADB posted on Faiet.

That said he is a little off. GW hasn't always considered them official. They didn't allow them in the GT's and unless I'm mistaken the Throne of Skulls they still run doesn't allow FW.

That said, if TO's pick it up and run with it I'm down for my codex SM to be Mantis Warriors. What's that? Divination on C:SM Libbies? Yes please! (And this is one of the least abusive things I could do )

Anyone being honest and experienced enough with present meta/list design to know what you can do with them will admit there's a lot of powerful stuff you can do with FW, and we haven't seen much of ANY of it in the events that've allowed it yet.

That said, the point shouldn't be about game balance and power. There are WAY too many people opposed to it for every event right now and TO to just blanket allow, and that's just how it is. If GW can get clear enough, however, everyone will follow suit (one way or another).

To the point that they still to this day have local GW stores where they disallow its use on occasion, and have even fairly recently disallowed their use in GW-sponsored events ... that's exactly the kind of mixed message that frankly sponsors the continued issue among many players.

During 3rd edition. The UK GT did not let you use space wolf scouts, and the US GT let you use forgeworld including flyers for at least one season. As of the last time I looked at it GW did not allow allies at the Throne of Skulls in the UK.

For me the argument over whether it was official or not-official was always a non-starter and never really in question. It was always official. I think Aaron sort of sums it up as to why.

The issue is just being official does not mean events have to use it. There are a lot of things in “official” 40k that we choose to allow or disallow at events.

Variety is good, and it allows attendees to participate in the sort of events they want to play.

I do not see anything here changing that other than maybe finally people will stop with the official or not official arguments.

My understanding has always been that the forgeworld units are not as vetted or playtested as the mainstream GW counterparts. That is partially what contributes to some of the issues with the rules that forgeworld releases (see http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2013/10/forgeworlds-newest-argument-for-not.html.

I was unaware that Games Workshop didn't allow allies at their events. I looked at the rulespack for Throne of Skulls, and the only thing that they restricted from GW's last remaining official tournament were forgeworld entries and expansion entries (ala Storm of Magic). Soure: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2730448a_Throne_of_Skulls_Rules_WHWorld_2013.pdf.

The thing that I don't understand is that folks who are in favor of including forgeworld don't have an agreed upon standard of what from forgeworld can be used. For example, the Las Vegas Open is allowing *any* non super heavy / gargantuan entry (not just the 40k approved entries). But they aren't allowing forgeworld army lists. Why? If the units can be used, and they're official according to ADB, then why aren't the army lists?

From what I have seen, several people are proponents of forgeworld because it serves as a positive method of army comp. Rather than restricting units that may "break" the game, tournaments in sixth ed have allowed in forgeworld to help re-balance the game (principally against fliers earlier in the edition). That really isn't the altruistic "let's allow in more diversity" that some people are advocating, that is a TO's subjective utilization of additional unit entries to resolve what they see as problems with the way the difference codices are balanced out.

 cvtuttle wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Reecius wrote:
The Independent Characters got the happy dance on film from Adepticon two years ago (after a LOT of beers) and I thank the Emperor it has never shown up anywhere!

We are holding it for a REALLY good discount from Frontline....

Blackmail, good sir, black mail of the lowest order!

And yes, distributing rules is what I should have said, thanks for the correction. My intent was to show that they are working closely together.

"My understanding has always been that the forgeworld units are not as vetted or playtested as the mainstream GW counterparts."

That is simply hearsay.

 Reecius wrote:
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/10/forgeworld-becomes-official-for.html

Rumor: FW to become "officially approved" for 40K use.

Hahah

Nothing official yet, of course, but we were told this exact thing at the beginning of 6th by folks that knew what they were talking about and gamers doubted. Looks like the move to integrate FW and 40K is becoming more and more real.

People can still choose not to use it just like Double FoC or whatever, but this ties in to what we were told before 6th dropped, just like the allied mini-dexes as we called them which are the supplements, etc. which have all become a reality over time.

We shall see, but I am curious to hear how other TO's will react to this. We've been using FW in events for a year now and have had absolutely no issues with it at all, apart from Blackmoor who was mad that his opponent's turrets confused him but then Blackmoor categorically opposes FW so I take that with a grain of salt And just for the record Blackmoor, this is not meant to be an attack, just some friendly teasing as you so publicly oppose FW.

As the game becomes progressively more complex to the point that no normal player can possible keep up with it (we can barely keep up with it and we do this as our profession) including FW really changes nothing. We were also told that this was the intent of the game designers: to make the game so complex that the meta was in constant flux to avoid stagnation as we had at the end of 5th.

There are a few problem units in FW but the awesome thing about the company is that they actually listen to, and respond to feedback. I am appalled by that stupid new Tau suit and we wrote them and they asked for our feedback on the unit and are taking it into consideration. Nice!

Generally speaking though, nothing in FW is as powerful as what you can pull out of the Daemons, Tau, and Eldar books and help to bring more diversity to the game, and allow other armies combos to let them compete.

Discuss!

This goes in line with what I've been hearing from the GW manager meetings:

-GW relaunching website possibly with forgeworld included
-GW stores will be able to order forgeworld through the terminal again
-FW will be changing its resin to something cheaper.

With all that in mind true or not it points that GW is doing a big push with forgeworld.

 Ravenous D wrote:
This goes in line with what I've been hearing from the GW manager meetings:

-GW relaunching website possibly with forgeworld included
-GW stores will be able to order forgeworld through the terminal again
-FW will be changing its resin to something cheaper.

With all that in mind true or not it points that GW is doing a big push with forgeworld.

Been hearing this for quite some time.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
"My understanding has always been that the forgeworld units are not as vetted or playtested as the mainstream GW counterparts."

That is simply hearsay.

It was accually BJ from the 40K Global podcast who said that. He was talking about his time at GW while he was a playtester.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Reecius wrote:
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/10/forgeworld-becomes-official-for.html

We shall see, but I am curious to hear how other TO's will react to this. We've been using FW in events for a year now and have had absolutely no issues with it at all, apart from Blackmoor who was mad that his opponent's turrets confused him but then Blackmoor categorically opposes FW so I take that with a grain of salt And just for the record Blackmoor, this is not meant to be an attack, just some friendly teasing as you so publicly oppose FW.

Just as an FYI, those turrets where just one of several issues in our game and that was the 8th and last game over a long weekend. He just wanted to win more than I wanted to fight and so I wanted to get an early start on my 6 hour drive home.

And I was not really mad at Isreal (I really loved his Tau shirt). I just used those turrets as an example of why FW should not be allowed at a tournament.

They got rid of all the playtesters a long time ago.

@Blackmoor

Fair enough.

And yes, Israel's Tau muscle shirt is legendary! hahaha

If this is true I will specifically make a CSM/Ork ally list with a contemptor dreadnought and a Mega-Dredd... Just because I could

Even more reason to pick up a Fire Hawk for my Dark Angels. I am just waiting for official rules to make sure it is worth it (and still able to be used in Dark Angels).

You guys have it all wrong!!! Blackmoor will do a little dance once this happens he will be so HAPPY. Why? Because Blackmoor isn't happy unless he has something to cry about. :p

 TimmyMWD wrote:
My understanding has always been that the forgeworld units are not as vetted or playtested as the mainstream GW counterparts. That is partially what contributes to some of the issues with the rules that forgeworld releases (see http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2013/10/forgeworlds-newest-argument-for-not.html.

I was unaware that Games Workshop didn't allow allies at their events. I looked at the rulespack for Throne of Skulls, and the only thing that they restricted from GW's last remaining official tournament were forgeworld entries and expansion entries (ala Storm of Magic). Soure: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2730448a_Throne_of_Skulls_Rules_WHWorld_2013.pdf.

The thing that I don't understand is that folks who are in favor of including forgeworld don't have an agreed upon standard of what from forgeworld can be used. For example, the Las Vegas Open is allowing *any* non super heavy / gargantuan entry (not just the 40k approved entries). But they aren't allowing forgeworld army lists. Why? If the units can be used, and they're official according to ADB, then why aren't the army lists?

From what I have seen, several people are proponents of forgeworld because it serves as a positive method of army comp. Rather than restricting units that may "break" the game, tournaments in sixth ed have allowed in forgeworld to help re-balance the game (principally against fliers earlier in the edition). That really isn't the altruistic "let's allow in more diversity" that some people are advocating, that is a TO's subjective utilization of additional unit entries to resolve what they see as problems with the way the difference codices are balanced out.

The last time aI had checked in on the Throne of Skulls rules was very early in 6th edition (living 250 miles from the nearest game much less tournament has made me lose interest in keeping up with everything) so like I said at that time they were not allowing allies.

 Dugg wrote:
You guys have it all wrong!!! Blackmoor will do a little dance once this happens he will be so HAPPY. Why? Because Blackmoor isn't happy unless he has something to cry about. :p

I guess some people can't win in 6th edition and need the crutch of forge world to do well, and then attack those who can win without it.

True story: After going 4-0 on day 1 of the Adepticon championships I was looking all around for Dugg to make it also into the final 16. Then I remembered that they are not allowing Forge World into the championships, and that he sucks
at 6th edition 40k without it, and it all made sense.

@TimmyMWD –

The issue with 40k Forge World army lists is pretty simple. Forge World might release a book and that book may contain a some new units along with some army list for the “theme of the book” that allows those units to be taken in the army list section. That is all well and good. It also works generally well for a bit. However, at some future point Forge World will include updated versions of those units in an IA: Apocalypse book, or IA: Aeronautica or another compendium type book. Generally this involves some tweak to the unit rules, and/or a point change.

So now the most current version of these unit rules exist in the latest book release. At the same time it is pretty seldom that the entire army list from that book gets an updated. So most of the time you are left with an army list still having the old listing.

By my thought process you are left with two options if you want to allow Forge World army lists.
1. Take it upon yourself to tie out all the army lists to the most current unit rules and make any needed adjustments to the army lists.
2. Allow the older lists, and accept that you will have the same model being played under different rules. Including the distinct possibility that someone may have that same model in both a primary and ally detachment functioning differently.

Option 1: This could be a lot of work depending on the release schedule. Events as you well know have to balance time and resources. Even at events like AdeptiCon the percentage of people that would take advantage and run a Forge World army are pretty small. Is the effort required worth it or is that time and effort better spent someplace it can have a bigger impact on more attendees? I generally feel it is to small of an impact for the work required and as an event organizer my time is better spent elsewhere.

Option 2: One of biggest complaints we hear with regard to Forgeworld is “knowing” the rules. I just think that it is a bad idea to have identical models on the table or being played at the event, that are using different rules. It is asking for trouble, can lead to bad feelings and misunderstandings. All things we prefer to avoid.

So in the end, it is one thing to allow Forge World units. Allowing army lists creates additional considerations.

All that said we have at times, with the Gladiator allowed some selected army lists. I also think you can make a stronger case to allow the Warhammer Forge WFB lists, as generally there is a lot less change happening at Warhammer Forge.

muwhe, when you mention Warhammer forge army lists are you just referring to chaos dwarfs, or are there others? Chaos dwarfs seems pretty well accepted in the fantasy community... I actually played against them in one of the main fantasy tournies at Adepticon '12

 TimmyMWD wrote:
For example, the Las Vegas Open is allowing *any* non super heavy / gargantuan entry (not just the 40k approved entries).

Just to clarify: there are no units non-Apocalypse which are not "40k approved", other than maybe some obscure old unit that hasn't had updated rules since before the "40k approved" icon was introduced. Everything FW publishes is either "40k approved" or "Apocalypse". The only reason for a broader policy than "40k approved" is to cover the rare potential situation where something is clearly supposed to be a normal 40k unit but wasn't technically labeled correctly under the modern system. The actual list of units allowed is going to be almost identical, if not truly identical.

(Unless of course you're talking about experimental rules, which are not official and can only be allowed via house rules.)

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Dugg wrote:
You guys have it all wrong!!! Blackmoor will do a little dance once this happens he will be so HAPPY. Why? Because Blackmoor isn't happy unless he has something to cry about. :p

I guess some people can't win in 6th edition and need the crutch of forge world to do well, and then attack those who can win without it.

True story: After going 4-0 on day 1 of the Adepticon championships I was looking all around for Dugg to make it also into the final 16. Then I remembered that they are not allowing Forge World into the championships, and that he sucks
at 6th edition 40k without it, and it all made sense.

Boom!!!

Jouglas, I smell a grudge match in the works! Three games, 1 with, 1 without FW and 1 at either player's discretion, last man standing wins!

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Dugg wrote:
You guys have it all wrong!!! Blackmoor will do a little dance once this happens he will be so HAPPY. Why? Because Blackmoor isn't happy unless he has something to cry about. :p

I guess some people can't win in 6th edition and need the crutch of forge world to do well, and then attack those who can win without it.

True story: After going 4-0 on day 1 of the Adepticon championships I was looking all around for Dugg to make it also into the final 16. Then I remembered that they are not allowing Forge World into the championships, and that he sucks
at 6th edition 40k without it, and it all made sense.

haha, I'm not attacking you buddy, I'm just saying you like to whine and cry about things. It's kind of your thing. Some people are not happy unless they have something to complain about. My Grampa was that way. I wont say you are fully that way in life but HOLY CRAP you will jump on that soap box every chance you get to cry about FW in 6th.

And by the way, my Non-FW record is still about a 12-1 W-L average in 6th and I do play without FW (rules/units) all the time, I still play with the FW models because they are AWESOME. I play about 3 non-FW games to 1 FW game on average. So you might want to check all the facts before you make those kinds of statements, or don't, I wont lose any sleep over it.

Sure, I only went 3-1 first day at Adepticon this past year, 1st time I haven't been in the top 16 and I think I only missed the cut by a half dozen-dozen, maybe, out of what 240'ish, but that can happen. I'm not going to whine and cry about my lose and point the finger and say my opponents list was OP, he was lucky, I had bad luck or go on AND ON about what was allowed or not allowed. It was what it was. And honestly I always blame myself when I don't win and try not to make to many excuses. I knew going in what the rules were, what the restrictions were, what the new Meta was and I chose to play in the tournament. Just because I play with little Army men doesn't mean I have to stop acting like an adult. This wasn't my first or last rodeo buddy but it is in the past and I'm all about the future. Adapt and Overcome, right guys?

Like I told you at Adepticon, congratulations for making it into the top 16 this last year. It is a big accomplishment and it's a tough field over there so again way to go bud.

This whole foregworld "argument" is pretty silly in the long run. The FW 40k approved stamp is there. TOs will decide what the rules/restrictions will be and we will decide to play or not play in their tournament. Crying about it to the same people over and over again is just white noise and becomes annoying and pointless.


@ Reecius - ... or better yet 2 out of 3 and we switch lists from the Broadside Bash, my HobbyKiller FW list played by Blackmoor and his Draigo (no FW) List played by me, same Lists and Mission we played there for all 3 games. I would be willing to bet I win 2 if not all 3 times. What do you say Blackmoor? I mean I suck in 6th and ForgeWorld is OP so let's put some money down on it and play like men. We can make it a friendly bet, 100 per Win, sound good?

Well http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Boy-That-Escalated-Quickly-Anchorman.gif

Forgeworld will never be accepted, not in the way that their advocates want it to be. Realistically most TOs/gaming groups aren't going to allow lists full of over-powered cheese that most players haven't even heard of to gak all over some newbie.

That and the average gamer would have to have read about twice as many rulebooks as he currently has done - and not just rulebooks that can be flicked through in GW, but expensive FW-only rulebooks. Consequently the contents of these rulebooks will remain obscure and the average gamer will stay clear of FW.

Guys, it's silly to say one person is whining/crying/going-on-and-on when the fact is you both are on either side of the issue. Ribbing can be good fun but it can also go too far. Agree to disagree, hmm? Someone isn't a whiner, Or less of a 40k player, than you just because they don't agree with you.

You can't say you're being an adult while at the same time calling someone a whiner/cryer, I don't use those words in my adult interactions. You also can't say it while questioning someone's skill because they use a certain unit. So, like I said, please let it go / agree to disagree. Maybe GW really will be clearer on this one day, but until then this is the same old ground and not worth fighting over.

xruslanx wrote:
Forgeworld will never be accepted, not in the way that their advocates want it to be. Realistically most TOs/gaming groups aren't going to allow lists full of over-powered cheese that most players haven't even heard of to gak all over some newbie.

That and the average gamer would have to have read about twice as many rulebooks as he currently has done - and not just rulebooks that can be flicked through in GW, but expensive FW-only rulebooks. Consequently the contents of these rulebooks will remain obscure and the average gamer will stay clear of FW.

From this post, the impression I get is that you consider FW to be on the same level as non-GW wargames.



Also, does the average gamer really read every codex? Really?

I see little difference between FW rules and 50$ supplements, both are luxuries beyond the core game and main army books. One says Games Workshop and the other says Games Workshop with a FW logo. You can actually GET the FW books in hard copy tho when they're released which makes them actually easier to use than supplements, which is ironic considering the complaint is the difficulty in obtaining the FW rules.

My main and ongoing problem with FW is that they need to stop changing unit rules with every book every 3 months (I'm looking at you Mortis Contemptor...). As a TO tho I couldn't care less what GW says, since they don't run, they don't support and they don't care about tournaments. Plenty of events restrict things that are in the core rulebook, it's just preference.