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 Reecius wrote:
@ClockwordZion

Well said. Play the way you like!

The only issue is figuring out what everyone likes so we can all go to the same events =)

Perhaps we can form a committee who governs the unique rule set that will be used in tournaments. We could call them the High Lords of Terra, and the TOs for the events could be Inquisitors with any other judges being their Inquisitorial Acolytes....

That's about the most serious solution I can present. I'm not a high tournament player (I do like a good competitive game though) so whatever is done will not likely effect me much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
Blackmoor why you don't like FW?

When we talk about FW we are not really talking about the IA: Apoc book (I have not seen the new one yet). What we are talking about is that in the nooks and crannies of almost every IA book there is a broken unit (all imperial btw) and when put together create an broken list. We are not talking about the Chaos Contemptor dread or any other bad units, just the broken ones. Think IG artillery for starters.

Wait....when did the Arvus Lighter, Aquila Lander or the Avenger Strike Fighter become broken? Or the Vulture be considered more broken than the Vendetta? I don't think ALL of the Imperial stuff is broken.

Also the IG artillery was mostly broken thanks to GW's artillery rules (the crew using the gun's Toughness when you roll to wound them was a bit much I think).

 Reecius wrote:
@winterman

Well, that is actually going to be an issue with Codices, too. The digital versions get updated electronically and if someone hasn't updated theirs, you could find yourself in a situation where two people have different versions of the rules, or a different version than the judges or, crappiest of all, a change to the rules mid tournament.

We were talking about on the last FAQ call, how this move to digital is really going to alter the way tournaments are run as the rules come out faster and faster and are changing under our feet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and congrats on the strong turnout for your event!

Thanks for the kudos.

And yeah I agree the eRules are going to be a bigger and bigger issue going forward but its significantly different situation.

--Adepta Sororitas, I know what that is and what should be in there. If it gets an update the digital website at least lets me know I need to take a look/find someone with the book. It also updates automatically -- I don't need to order it from England. If there happens to be some overlap between other books its ok because they are self contained (eg condemnor boltguns can be different between codexes without much issue -- its silly when there is but it doesn't cause a TO much issue).

--Forgeworld is no such animal. Each IA book has the potential of mix of loyalist and non-loyalist stuff. The units they contain changes over time (IA Apoc books always contain different stuff from the last ones). There's overlap between books, even recent ones and its hard to tell if anything has changed. We know that hydra platforms changed in the 3 months or so between Aeronauticus and IA1 2nd ed. How can we ever know that won't happen again? There's stuff from IA12 is in Apoc 6ed, has it changed at all? Who knows unless you somehow acquire both books.

That really is the difference and the issue I have. With codexes I determine the current rules on a codex by codex basis. Check website for 15 codexes and expansions, check FAQs, check didgital website, done. With FW its a unit by unit basis. If I want to really be on top of things I need to know where the latest rules are. Only Adepticon has ever made that effort and this year their document was obsolete almost as soon as it was published.

Personally I don't care one way or other about the supposed balance issues with Forgeworld, the game has yet to ever be really balanced as players will always try and find ways to exploit any supposed balance, whether you include Forgeworld, institute comp or even use custom missions. I also don't thing there's much weight on either side of the 'is it offical' arguments cause tournaments are their own animal entirely anyways even if its fully sanctioned by the studio.

The only problem I have is the time consuming and potentially expensive task keeping up with what is current as far as Forgworld

 Dugg wrote:
Lately in our league down here almost all gripping has been over Tau, Seer Council and Demons lately. No one is crying about FW. Unless they have to play me for a make-up game and I bring the pain, but they did that with me WAY before FW. Just don't miss a league game Guys.

Besides you, most people do not want to spend the money on a broken FW list. The FW units that I want to use at the LVO come out to $272.00 and that is a lot for 4 models that I will only use once or twice a year (and whose rules can change at any time).

Most people do not want to spend the money on FW. That is the only thing that is keeping people ignorant of how brutal it is.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Dugg wrote:
Lately in our league down here almost all gripping has been over Tau, Seer Council and Demons lately. No one is crying about FW. Unless they have to play me for a make-up game and I bring the pain, but they did that with me WAY before FW. Just don't miss a league game Guys.

Besides you, most people do not want to spend the money on a broken FW list. The FW units that I want to use at the LVO come out to $272.00 and that is a lot for 4 models that I will only use once or twice a year (and whose rules can change at any time).

Most people do not want to spend the money on FW. That is the only thing that is keeping people ignorant of how brutal it is.

So GW hasn't invalidated units or options through new codexes or FAQs? I guess my Repentia unit didn't get dragged into a dark ally and beaten with a Nerf Bat then.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So GW hasn't invalidated units or options through new codexes or FAQs? I guess my Repentia unit didn't get dragged into a dark ally and beaten with a Nerf Bat then.

They do it, but it takes GW years. Even with the quick release schedules they are replacing 4th edition codexes that are many years old.

And FYI, Repemtia have always been bad so nothing has changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
Blackmoor why you don't like FW?

When we talk about FW we are not really talking about the IA: Apoc book (I have not seen the new one yet). What we are talking about is that in the nooks and crannies of almost every IA book there is a broken unit (all imperial btw) and when put together create an broken list. We are not talking about the Chaos Contemptor dread or any other bad units, just the broken ones. Think IG artillery for starters.

Wait....when did the Arvus Lighter, Aquila Lander or the Avenger Strike Fighter become broken? Or the Vulture be considered more broken than the Vendetta? I don't think ALL of the Imperial stuff is broken.

Also the IG artillery was mostly broken thanks to GW's artillery rules (the crew using the gun's Toughness when you roll to wound them was a bit much I think).

Someone needs to read a little better. I said that there is “a” broken unit in the FW books, not all imperial units are broken.

The vendetta is way over powered because it has rules and a point cost for a skimmer, and then was given flyer rules. So because they have a broken unit it is perfectly fine to give them even more? If it is just as good as a vendetta, then you would not mind having forge world banned?

 Blackmoor wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So GW hasn't invalidated units or options through new codexes or FAQs? I guess my Repentia unit didn't get dragged into a dark ally and beaten with a Nerf Bat then.

They do it, but it takes GW years. Even with the quick release schedules they are replacing 4th edition codexes that are many years old.

And FYI, Repemtia have always been bad so nothing has changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
Blackmoor why you don't like FW?

When we talk about FW we are not really talking about the IA: Apoc book (I have not seen the new one yet). What we are talking about is that in the nooks and crannies of almost every IA book there is a broken unit (all imperial btw) and when put together create an broken list. We are not talking about the Chaos Contemptor dread or any other bad units, just the broken ones. Think IG artillery for starters.

Wait....when did the Arvus Lighter, Aquila Lander or the Avenger Strike Fighter become broken? Or the Vulture be considered more broken than the Vendetta? I don't think ALL of the Imperial stuff is broken.

Also the IG artillery was mostly broken thanks to GW's artillery rules (the crew using the gun's Toughness when you roll to wound them was a bit much I think).

Someone needs to read a little better. I said that there is “a” broken unit in the FW books, not all imperial units are broken.

The vendetta is way over powered because it has rules and a point cost for a skimmer, and then was given flyer rules. So because they have a broken unit it is perfectly fine to give them even more? If it is just as good as a vendetta, then you would not mind having forge world banned?

Even if we consider the vulture too powerful (it really isn't), why ban all Forgeworld?

Let's not go down this rabbit hole, guys, there has been plenty of discussion on what IG units are overpowered in the Forgeworld books... no need to rehash it all here.

And the new Tau suit puts them all to shame, anyway

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Dugg wrote:
Lately in our league down here almost all gripping has been over Tau, Seer Council and Demons lately. No one is crying about FW. Unless they have to play me for a make-up game and I bring the pain, but they did that with me WAY before FW. Just don't miss a league game Guys.

Besides you, most people do not want to spend the money on a broken FW list. The FW units that I want to use at the LVO come out to $272.00 and that is a lot for 4 models that I will only use once or twice a year (and whose rules can change at any time).

Most people do not want to spend the money on FW. That is the only thing that is keeping people ignorant of how brutal it is.

That's a bold statement to state that players don't want to buy FW units. You might want to check those facts and ask FW how their sales are going these days. A very large and still growing list of fellow gamers down here and I get together to order FW and save on that shipping all the time. You want in on the next order?

Why would you only use them twice? I use mine all the time. Most of the time in games my friends have requested I play them or simple don't care what I play, and we have a great time playing. If any of my friends ask me not to play with my FW units I don't, without a second thought, and we still have a great time playing. Pretty Simple.

I will play you with any crazy "broken" units/lists you end up buying Blackmoor. If you spend money on crazy broken FW models and no one else will play with you I will invite you down here to play. I will BBQ up some spicy Wings and we will throw back some ice cold beverages and we might even have a pretty damn good time. I'll even invite other FW and non-FW playing buddies and we'll have a big ForgeWorld LOVE FEST.

But back to this threads point...

Don't worry Blackmoor, I am already looking into installing a tissue holder for you and anyone else that will need to wipe away their tears over such a silly issue. (if you got upset about that "Silly" comment you are in the Tissue category) haha But don't worry Guys, I will not remove the Cup Holders and I will have plenty of adult beverages for the rest of us Zen playing Gamers.

*The only rule in 40k that must always be part of my games and I am pretty serious about it is RULE #1 "Have Fun" The rest is ever changing and evolving.

 Dugg wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Dugg wrote:
Lately in our league down here almost all gripping has been over Tau, Seer Council and Demons lately. No one is crying about FW. Unless they have to play me for a make-up game and I bring the pain, but they did that with me WAY before FW. Just don't miss a league game Guys.

Besides you, most people do not want to spend the money on a broken FW list. The FW units that I want to use at the LVO come out to $272.00 and that is a lot for 4 models that I will only use once or twice a year (and whose rules can change at any time).

Most people do not want to spend the money on FW. That is the only thing that is keeping people ignorant of how brutal it is.

That's a bold statement to state that players don't want to buy FW units. You might want to check those facts and ask FW how their sales are going these days. A very large and still growing list of fellow gamers down here and I get together to order FW and save on that shipping all the time. You want in on the next order?

Why would you only use them twice? I use mine all the time. Most of the time in games my friends have requested I play them or simple don't care what I play, and we have a great time playing. If any of my friends ask me not to play with my FW units I don't, without a second thought, and we still have a great time playing. Pretty Simple.

I will play you with any crazy "broken" units/lists you end up buying Blackmoor. If you spend money on crazy broken FW models and no one else will play with you I will invite you down here to play. I will BBQ up some spicy Wings and we will throw back some ice cold beverages and we might even have a pretty damn good time. I'll even invite other FW and non-FW playing buddies and we'll have a big ForgeWorld LOVE FEST.

But back to this threads point...

Don't worry Blackmoor, I am already looking into installing a tissue holder for you and anyone else that will need to wipe away their tears over such a silly issue. (if you got upset about that "Silly" comment you are in the Tissue category) haha But don't worry Guys, I will not remove the Cup Holders and I will have plenty of adult beverages for the rest of us Zen playing Gamers.

*The only rule in 40k that must always be part of my games and I am pretty serious about it is RULE #1 "Have Fun" The rest is ever changing and evolving.

Sounds like a hot date to me!

 Blackmoor wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So GW hasn't invalidated units or options through new codexes or FAQs? I guess my Repentia unit didn't get dragged into a dark ally and beaten with a Nerf Bat then.

They do it, but it takes GW years. Even with the quick release schedules they are replacing 4th edition codexes that are many years old.

Might want to check to see how often those rules FW has really get updated. Most of them are years old before any changes occur. The only ones that aren't are the Experimental rules which get their major update and will stay the same for years.

 Blackmoor wrote:
And FYI, Repemtia have always been bad so nothing has changed.

Tell that to all the stuff I've killed with them. And even when they didn't kill anything they served as a major distraction (tell an opponent that the unit of crazy women with chainswords are S6, AP2 with Armorbane and they will not only keep their tanks far away from them, but won't Deep Strike near them, or generally want to get close to them. They also waste shooting at them). Since losing FnP they became significantly less good.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Someone needs to read a little better. I said that there is “a” broken unit in the FW books, not all imperial units are broken.

Either way you want to slice it, I disagree. I'd love to see the list of which specific units the community agrees are broken along with a rational argument that explains why (instead of you know, "it's Forgeworld!"). The thing is there isn't a consistent one that exists. Some people thing this is OP, others thing that is, but there is no set list and if there was you could just ban those specific units from the tournament (might want to police all the regular GW "broken" stuff while you're at it too), or release an alteration to bring them back in line (perhaps Artillery Crews don't use the gun's toughness to nerf the Thudd Guns, Big Guns and emplaced artillery units to being good but not TOO good?). It's a tournament, if you're willing to do the actual work to iron the wrinkles out of the game then that's up to you.

 Blackmoor wrote:
The vendetta is way over powered because it has rules and a point cost for a skimmer, and then was given flyer rules. So because they have a broken unit it is perfectly fine to give them even more? If it is just as good as a vendetta, then you would not mind having forge world banned?

Who said anything was as good as a Vendetta? The Vulture was a skimmer too, as where most of the flyers, but not all of them got better when the new rules came out. And those who did benefited not because they were FW, but because of how the flyer rules work. All the blame for things doesn't rest on FW, especially when they aren't the ones who write the core rules (which are the rules that players will always try to bend over a table and take advantage of).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is FW wasn't breaking the game when people played it in 5th (wound allocations shenanigans where doing a much better job of that in 5th than FW ever was), nor do they break the game in 6th. I feel the real issue is people don't want to change how their game is played, or refuse to believe that the stuff that comes out of FW isn't nearly as broken as they claim. Nothing they sell is "free" points wise, nor does it break FOC (I don't know of anything they have that you can play in 40k that doesn't take up a FOC slot).

Honestly a lot of things fall into an issue I've seen with competitive 40k as a whole since 6th started: not enough damned terrain.

Emplaced artillery? Can't pivot (they're immobile unless you take a specific vehicle), has a 45 degree firing arc, and if you kill or break the crew the gun automatically dies. Also a number of the guns need LOS to be effective (full distance scatter with no adjustment for BS), or to even shoot. Guess what we don't have enough of on most people's tables that allows Tau to be so good as a turtled up firebase? LOS blocking terrain as well as just terrain in general. There is a severe lack of terrain density on the tables I've seen pictured from tournaments and it often doesn't "fill out" like it needs to according to the rules themselves.

Remedy4389 wrote:

 Dugg wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Dugg wrote:
Lately in our league down here almost all gripping has been over Tau, Seer Council and Demons lately. No one is crying about FW. Unless they have to play me for a make-up game and I bring the pain, but they did that with me WAY before FW. Just don't miss a league game Guys.

Besides you, most people do not want to spend the money on a broken FW list. The FW units that I want to use at the LVO come out to $272.00 and that is a lot for 4 models that I will only use once or twice a year (and whose rules can change at any time).

Most people do not want to spend the money on FW. That is the only thing that is keeping people ignorant of how brutal it is.

That's a bold statement to state that players don't want to buy FW units. You might want to check those facts and ask FW how their sales are going these days. A very large and still growing list of fellow gamers down here and I get together to order FW and save on that shipping all the time. You want in on the next order?

Why would you only use them twice? I use mine all the time. Most of the time in games my friends have requested I play them or simple don't care what I play, and we have a great time playing. If any of my friends ask me not to play with my FW units I don't, without a second thought, and we still have a great time playing. Pretty Simple.

I will play you with any crazy "broken" units/lists you end up buying Blackmoor. If you spend money on crazy broken FW models and no one else will play with you I will invite you down here to play. I will BBQ up some spicy Wings and we will throw back some ice cold beverages and we might even have a pretty damn good time. I'll even invite other FW and non-FW playing buddies and we'll have a big ForgeWorld LOVE FEST.

But back to this threads point...

Don't worry Blackmoor, I am already looking into installing a tissue holder for you and anyone else that will need to wipe away their tears over such a silly issue. (if you got upset about that "Silly" comment you are in the Tissue category) haha But don't worry Guys, I will not remove the Cup Holders and I will have plenty of adult beverages for the rest of us Zen playing Gamers.

*The only rule in 40k that must always be part of my games and I am pretty serious about it is RULE #1 "Have Fun" The rest is ever changing and evolving.

Sounds like a hot date to me!

haha YEP! and Blackmoor better bring me flowers!

I'm not reading back through all those pages. I'm just going to chime in here.

Until the FW units are included in normal army codices they will never be accepted as "official".

FW units are generally thought of as an expansion to the core game. It's FW's own doing as their books (mostly) play like a stand alone campaign.

The units in Imperial Armour Apocalypse with a 40K icon... Now that in my opinion is fair game. Why? Because that book IMO is not a game "expansion", but a game "supplement" much like the new codex supplements for Farsight Enclaves, Black Legion or Sentinels of Terra.

 oni wrote:
I'm not reading back through all those pages. I'm just going to chime in here.

Until the FW units are included in normal army codices they will never be accepted as "official".

*Ahem*
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/HYDRA-FLAK-TANK.html

And I'm sure there are more you can find in the IG tanks section.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Emplaced artillery? Can't pivot (they're immobile unless you take a specific vehicle), has a 45 degree firing arc, and if you kill or break the crew the gun automatically dies. Also a number of the guns need LOS to be effective (full distance scatter with no adjustment for BS), or to even shoot. Guess what we don't have enough of on most people's tables that allows Tau to be so good as a turtled up firebase? LOS blocking terrain as well as just terrain in general. There is a severe lack of terrain density on the tables I've seen pictured from tournaments and it often doesn't "fill out" like it needs to according to the rules themselves.

You are looking at it like a noob. Yes on paper that is what it says, but all of those statements are countered.

Can't pivot (they're immobile unless you take a specific vehicle), has a 45 degree firing arc,

You set up in a corner so you can see the whole board.

and if you kill or break the crew the gun automatically dies.

You have a Lord Commisar with the Command Squad gives you a re-rollable leadership of 10.

Also a number of the guns need LOS to be effective

Every gun needs LOS to be effective (Unless you are Tau)

(full distance scatter with no adjustment for BS),

You just cast prescience on them, so they get to re-roll the scatter dice in case you miss.

Guess what we don't have enough of on most people's tables that allows Tau to be so good as a turtled up firebase? LOS blocking terrain as well as just terrain in general.

You mean LOS blocking terrain which Vultures and Heavy Gun Platforms pretty much ignore? Funny thing is that if it was not for FW, you can hide from IG with LOS blocking terrain.

And you think it is just toughness 7 with a 3+ save that makes IG artillery good? You forgot to address the part where IG artillery get to "go to ground" behind and Aegus defense line for a 2+ cover save, and then get to use "get back into the fight" to shoot the next turn. Also how you get to add Rune Priest with divination so that they ignore cover, and re-roll failed to hit rolls etc.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
@ClockwordZion

Well said. Play the way you like!

The only issue is figuring out what everyone likes so we can all go to the same events =)

Perhaps we can form a committee who governs the unique rule set that will be used in tournaments. We could call them the High Lords of Terra, and the TOs for the events could be Inquisitors with any other judges being their Inquisitorial Acolytes....

That's about the most serious solution I can present. I'm not a high tournament player (I do like a good competitive game though) so whatever is done will not likely effect me much.

We already do (although it isn't ALL events, just some of the bigger events)! haha, problem is, we're having trouble keeping up and on the same page now with all the digital stuff and pace of releases.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Emplaced artillery? Can't pivot (they're immobile unless you take a specific vehicle), has a 45 degree firing arc, and if you kill or break the crew the gun automatically dies. Also a number of the guns need LOS to be effective (full distance scatter with no adjustment for BS), or to even shoot. Guess what we don't have enough of on most people's tables that allows Tau to be so good as a turtled up firebase? LOS blocking terrain as well as just terrain in general. There is a severe lack of terrain density on the tables I've seen pictured from tournaments and it often doesn't "fill out" like it needs to according to the rules themselves.

You are looking at it like a noob. Yes on paper that is what it says, but all of those statements are countered.

Okay, that made me laugh. You said "noob" as if that makes you somehow "win".

 Blackmoor wrote:

Can't pivot (they're immobile unless you take a specific vehicle), has a 45 degree firing arc,

You set up in a corner so you can see the whole board.

No matter what you do you'll still have dead zones. Took 3 guns and pointed them 3 different directions? Then at least 1 won't be able to fire each turn.

 Blackmoor wrote:

and if you kill or break the crew the gun automatically dies.

You have a Lord Commisar with the Command Squad gives you a re-rollable leadership of 10.

Precision Shots. Picking him off with Barrage. Assaults.

 Blackmoor wrote:

Also a number of the guns need LOS to be effective

Every gun needs LOS to be effective (Unless you are Tau)

No, even Tau need LOS. The point was that tables aren't terrain heavy enough which is a large part of the problem.

 Blackmoor wrote:

(full distance scatter with no adjustment for BS),

You just cast prescience on them, so they get to re-roll the scatter dice in case you miss.

So you took a Lord Commisar and a Primaris Psyker as your HQ? Or did you ally in Eldar so you can still give orders? Hope you didn't mind spending points on allies instead of your guns. Oh and the guns can't take orders.

 Blackmoor wrote:

Guess what we don't have enough of on most people's tables that allows Tau to be so good as a turtled up firebase? LOS blocking terrain as well as just terrain in general.

You mean LOS blocking terrain which Vultures and Heavy Gun Platforms pretty much ignore? Funny thing is that if it was not for FW, you can hide from IG with LOS blocking terrain.

First you say everyone needs LOS then you say that the IG don't. Pick a story and stick with it!

Vultures are flyers. Flyers that are less powerful damage dealing wise than Vendettas and only get the advantage of Vector Dance over said Vendettas to compensate. And Heavy Gun Platforms are more expensive than Heavy Weapons teams, and if I remember correctly they can't move. Also I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as a Barrage Autocannon. LOS still matters there. That goes back to my point about terrain again.

 Blackmoor wrote:
And you think it is just toughness 7 with a 3+ save that makes IG artillery good? You forgot to address the part where IG artillery get to "go to ground" behind and Aegus defense line for a 2+ cover save, and then get to use "get back into the fight" to shoot the next turn. Also how you get to add Rune Priest with divination so that they ignore cover, and re-roll failed to hit rolls etc.

Guns can't go to ground.

So that's where your divination is coming from. So how much did you spend on Rune Priests to make sure you have enough Divination to go around to support the different Artillery units AND those Heavy weapon platforms you're talking about? What is your points limit you're running to get ALL of that into a list and still be effective? How much terrain are you running (besides not enough)?

Also I love how we're assuming that no one brings stuff to counter the guns either. It's almost as if your justifications live in a world where the only thing that exists is an empty board and a massive IG list (or at least one that took VERY few troops, which means you can VERY much take them in an Objective game if you just play the mission) where they have magic dice that never roll misses, and no one adapts their playstyle or lists to compensate for such a list.

I think your underestimating the Forgeworld IG list, Its definitely top 5 competative.

If it gets first turn its brutal, basically very few if any lists will compete, maybe drop pod spam, but even then its going to be super rough.

If it goes 2nd the psyker deathstars have a better than average chance against it

Do I think Forgeworld shouldn't be at tournaments because of it, No. The IG list suffers badly to 2+ rerollable save units that can multi charge it. Also adding in a vulture, or some IG defense platforms, a mortis dread in a lucious, or any of the other number of better than units don't break the meta or the game, they just add a little more spice to the game.

Are some of the forgeworld units better than thier counterparts in the books, yes, are some of them probably 10-20 points undercosted, yes, does this break the game, no.

The two main arguements against forgeworld are that there are units that are too good for thier points value, and that since the rules aren't available in the codexs then you shouldn't have to play against them.

I would tend to say that there are always going to be units that are too good for thier points, even in the main codexs and that forgeworld isn't drastically off the mark in any of its weapons with the exception of expieriemental rules which for all intensive purposes are there to sell models. And as far as access to the rules, I would say its exactly the same as if you were facing any other army that you didn't own the codex for / had friends that played, if you haven't played a sisters player in the last 2 years would you go to a tournament and complain that you shouldn't have to play them because you are unfamiliar with the rules.

As long as whoever is playing the up to date currect rules than you shouldn't have any problem facing it, the units are balanced, the agruably best build to come out of forgeworld is very good if it goes first against basically everything, but if it goes 2nd against half of the top tier armies its going to have a serious disadvantage.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 oni wrote:
I'm not reading back through all those pages. I'm just going to chime in here.

Until the FW units are included in normal army codices they will never be accepted as "official".

*Ahem*
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/HYDRA-FLAK-TANK.html

And I'm sure there are more you can find in the IG tanks section.

Yes, this is a perfect example and yes, there are more. Quite a few FW IG tanks got put into the 5th Ed. IG codex and much rejoicing was had. Why? Because there inclusion into the codex solidified them as "official".

Though if you look back to the original Imperial Armour books (the non-campaign style ones) that included these tanks Jervis Johnson himself said (in the book) they are official rules for use in regular games of 40K. So what happened that this approval / authentication didn't carry on / over to new editions? I speculate it's due to availability of the books and models, specifically here in the sates.

tiber55 wrote:
I think your underestimating the Forgeworld IG list, Its definitely top 5 competative.

If it gets first turn its brutal, basically very few if any lists will compete, maybe drop pod spam, but even then its going to be super rough.

Again, more terrain. Playing 5 peices of terrain like it's still 5th Edition is not nearly enough anymore.

Tables need to look more like this:


And less like this:


If you don't see the difference, the thing is one of those lets just about everything shoot just about anything else on the table effortlessly, the other does not.

tiber55 wrote:
If it goes 2nd the psyker deathstars have a better than average chance against it

Possibly, but I'm betting there are a number of other ways to counter it out there. Or do we still think IG leafblower style lists are the best option out there?

tiber55 wrote:
Do I think Forgeworld shouldn't be at tournaments because of it, No. The IG list suffers badly to 2+ rerollable save units that can multi charge it. Also adding in a vulture, or some IG defense platforms, a mortis dread in a lucious, or any of the other number of better than units don't break the meta or the game, they just add a little more spice to the game.

IG still suffers to the 2++ Screamerstar even with that stuff. Lucius Drop Pods don't let you assault the turn you land (instead you get to hide inside for a turn and hope they don't kill it, and then you), and a Mortis is a ranged Dread, not a close combat one, which is the Dread build people want in a Lucius.

tiber55 wrote:
Are some of the forgeworld units better than thier counterparts in the books, yes, are some of them probably 10-20 points undercosted, yes, does this break the game, no.

I honestly disagree. And anything that is cheaper tends to have drawbacks as well. It's not a strict upgrade, there are trade offs.

tiber55 wrote:
The two main arguements against forgeworld are that there are units that are too good for thier points value, and that since the rules aren't available in the codexs then you shouldn't have to play against them.

Supplements aren't in the codexes either, are we really going to argue that FW doesn't work like supplements? And from what I've seen 90% of what people complain is OP from FW gets toned down. GW not so much.

tiber55 wrote:
I would tend to say that there are always going to be units that are too good for thier points, even in the main codexs and that forgeworld isn't drastically off the mark in any of its weapons with the exception of expieriemental rules which for all intensive purposes are there to sell models. And as far as access to the rules, I would say its exactly the same as if you were facing any other army that you didn't own the codex for / had friends that played, if you haven't played a sisters player in the last 2 years would you go to a tournament and complain that you shouldn't have to play them because you are unfamiliar with the rules.

tiber55 wrote:
As long as whoever is playing the up to date currect rules than you shouldn't have any problem facing it, the units are balanced, the agruably best build to come out of forgeworld is very good if it goes first against basically everything, but it goes 2nd against half of the top tier armies its going to have a serious disadvantage.

Leafblower always hates going 2nd. You know what else makes it hard for them to table you turn 1? Not clustering up into a tight turtle formation, taking things that outflank (most books have some options that can do that), and using enough terrain that they have can't draw a bead on the entire army and the things that can shoot via Barrage don't get to roll their scatter.

FW is pretty and should be allowed.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Okay, that made me laugh. You said "noob" as if that makes you somehow "win".

Noobs always post a long laundry list of weaknesses of the FW artillery because they do not know any better, and they are all easily countered. Like:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Guns can't go to ground.

That is why you put the crew in from with their 2+ cover save. That is why you bought a ton of extra crew. You should already know that. Why do I waste the time having to explain it to you?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

First you say everyone needs LOS then you say that the IG don't. Pick a story and stick with it!

Vultures are flyers. Flyers that are less powerful damage dealing wise than Vendettas and only get the advantage of Vector Dance over said Vendettas to compensate. And Heavy Gun Platforms are more expensive than Heavy Weapons teams, and if I remember correctly they can't move. Also I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as a Barrage Autocannon. LOS still matters there. That goes back to my point about terrain again.

Now you are just being obtuse. A FW IG army has artillery that is not limited by LOS (Think Medusas and Basilisks that can't be killed). They have a Vector Dancer flyer that can position itself so it can shoot just about anywhere. No other army can ignore LOS as much as the FW IG army.

You know the most damage a Vendetta can do is 3 wounds right (not including heavy bolters)? How many a can a Vulture do...20? What game are you playing that 3 strength 9 shots are better than 20 strength 5 ones?

Iif you think that you can't fit in a couple of Rune Priests, a Vulture and a lot of artillery all you have to do is have Dugg post his list.

I am done answering your false assumptions because I could do this all day and you would still not understand.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Okay, that made me laugh. You said "noob" as if that makes you somehow "win".

Noobs always post a long laundry list of weaknesses of the FW artillery because they do not know any better, and they are all easily countered. Like:

No, noobs are the one who put FW into some kind of magical vacuum where it auto-pwns everything else.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Guns can't go to ground.

That is why you put the crew in from with their 2+ cover save. That is why you bought a ton of extra crew. You should already know that. Why do I waste the time having to explain it to you?

You know everything you're complaining about here applies to Ork Big Gunz which are ALSO T7, can use an Aegis and are BS 3 right? Guess we need to ban all of those too!

Oh, and picking the gun off with Barrage. Yes, Barrage the gun so it takes wounds first. That's an option. As is Focus Fire. "I'm going to Focus Fire my Autocannons on anything with a 4+ or worse Cover Save". Now you're just picking off the guns.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

First you say everyone needs LOS then you say that the IG don't. Pick a story and stick with it!

Vultures are flyers. Flyers that are less powerful damage dealing wise than Vendettas and only get the advantage of Vector Dance over said Vendettas to compensate. And Heavy Gun Platforms are more expensive than Heavy Weapons teams, and if I remember correctly they can't move. Also I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as a Barrage Autocannon. LOS still matters there. That goes back to my point about terrain again.

Now you are just being obtuse. A FW IG army has artillery that is not limited by LOS (Think Medusas and Basilisks that can't be killed). They have a Vector Dancer flyer that can position itself so it can shoot just about anywhere. No other army can ignore LOS as much as the FW IG army.

IG Artillery also all in the HS slot. So pick 3 units. 6 at 2K+.

 Blackmoor wrote:
You know the most damage a Vendetta can do is 3 wounds right (not including heavy bolters)? How many a can a Vulture do...20? What game are you playing that 3 strength 9 shots are better than 20 strength 5 ones?

A game where those 3 shots are killing my enemies tanks, artillery or focusing on killing enemy MCs (Hi Fateweaver!).

Also, you're the one who mentions LOS matters, then says it doesn't AND mentions Heavy Weapon Platforms in the same sentence in that it doesn't. I think you're the one who needs to spend a little time fact checking between us and getting your story straight because you're the one making factual errors here.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Iif you think that you can't fit in a couple of Rune Priests, a Vulture and a lot of artillery all you have to do is have Dugg post his list.

You can tak a max of 9 Artillery models (just the guns, not the crew) between the different unit options. They're only slightly cheaper than the tank options, can move (or pivot) and there are methods to deal with them but we're apparently playing pretend and saying there aren't.

If you're so confident that you can make such a face breaker list so easily why don't you prove it? Build a list and let people see what you think is so broken instead of making us box shadows.

 Blackmoor wrote:
I am done answering your false assumptions because I could do this all day and you would still not understand.

You're right, I can't understand what magical dream world you live in where FW is uncounterable.

You completely ignored where Blackmoor pointed out to you how they get a 2+ save. Let it go, guys... thread derail complete, and all over points that've been covered to death before. The 2+ save is trick #1 of that list, if you didn't know about it the argument is pretty much moot... and also long and already covered many times elsewhere.

IG artillery isn't the only FW model with issues... again, Reecius himself is concerned about the new Tau battlesuit.

There is no mythical list, its out there and being used.

Its a brutal list, is it worse than the rest of the super competative not fun to play against lists, no, is it just as bad, probably.

Also just so were clear the picture with a 90% board coverage of terrain would be horrible for a 40k game, if you think that would make a better tounament scene......

The other board looked fine in terms of area coverage of terrain, what it lacked is a large LoS blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the board, adding that one piece would make all the difference. Making the board give a blanket 5+ cover save and block line of sight from anything over 12 inches is just silly.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

tiber55 wrote:
I think your underestimating the Forgeworld IG list, Its definitely top 5 competative.

If it gets first turn its brutal, basically very few if any lists will compete, maybe drop pod spam, but even then its going to be super rough.

Again, more terrain. Playing 5 peices of terrain like it's still 5th Edition is not nearly enough anymore.

Tables need to look more like this:

Spoiler:

Lol. Do you play as orks by any chance? That is an awful table.

For some reason I missed the captions the first time- that is definitely an Infinity table, which plays best when choked with terrain... and also only requires 10 models to a side

Yeah the table he's pointing at is an Infinity table, the one he's saying is bad was an alternate layout NOVA table (they're actually both NOVA tables); the alternate layout definitely was too open. That Infinity one is too open also, for Infinity; I think we'll be like doubling for next year. The 40k tables will be getting double the large LOS blockers.

Perhaps unrelated, but the game needs a LOT more LOS-blocking terrain than ANY TOURNAMENT PRESENTLY IS FIELDING (yes, I'm including everybody). The game could also use the removal of 2++ re-rolling units (There are 2, and neither is from FW, and both are absurd for the average player to try and deal with, to a level of magnitude greater than anything FW or regular 40k).

Talk of whether FW is "broken" seems ... again ... pointless. Familiarity, fairness, comfort-levels, officiality, etc., are all fairly relevant. Point is, there are a lot of FW units (mostly IG) that are very, very difficult for and painful for the average 40k player to deal with. They are difficult enough for veteran players even (ref: our team vs. the BOLS team at AdeptiTeam last year, a game I doubt we'd have won if we weren't plying them with silly FW units like Ahazra Redth, Thudd Guns and Vulture). Adding them doesn't really address things like the 2++ re-rollers above, but it also doesn't make the tournament experience any more FORGIVING. It may add variety, but I think that's obvious ... more options should = more variety.

But I don't really see anyone putting forth the crazy idea that adding more stupid units to the average tournament is actually going to make it nicer on average players, so what's the point of arguing that it won't? It's as much a given as "add more units = more variety is likely."

 RiTides wrote:
You completely ignored where Blackmoor pointed out to you how they get a 2+ save. Let it go, guys... thread derail complete, and all over points that've been covered to death before. The 2+ save is trick #1 of that list, if you didn't know about it the argument is pretty much moot... and also long and already covered many times elsewhere.

IG artillery isn't the only FW model with issues... again, Reecius himself is concerned about the new Tau battlesuit.

The gun model can never go to ground so can't benefit from a 2+ save from doing so. If you focus fire on a 4+ only models with a 4+ cover save can take the wounds, leaving only the guns. And if they don't drop for the 2+ then you're hosing crew and forcing leadership checks. Even if you have a re-rollable Ld10 you can, and sometimes do fail. And if you don't fail the second time, that's okay, you just lost another model.

I didn't miss it, people just didn't understand that I was pointing out a problem with assuming that going to ground would solve the issue.

Sometimes I wish I had a good art program so I could draw the issue with the fields of fire. No matter how you lay it out there are dead zones for each Artillery unit, and if you fan the guns to cover a wider range of the board, at least 1 gun will not be able to shoot at a given target at a time. If you don't fan them and instead keep the guns parallel, you get a wider cone (especially at the far table edge) but the amount of dead space around the guns increases, meaning that it's even possible that they might leave you with clear avenues of approach as well.

And then their is Outflanking, Scouting, Snipers, Other Barrages, and a general list of tactics to deal with gunlines, emplaced or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
For some reason I missed the captions the first time- that is definitely an Infinity table, which plays best when choked with terrain... and also only requires 10 models to a side

Yeah, but it's a great example of what about a 40k table should look a lot more like, hence why I used it. I knew it wasn't perfect but honestly I was posting under a bit of a time crunch.

And for the one comment who said it would be bad for 40k, apparently you've never had the joy of playing City Fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MVBrandt wrote:
Yeah the table he's pointing at is an Infinity table, the one he's saying is bad was an alternate layout NOVA table (they're actually both NOVA tables); the alternate layout definitely was too open. That Infinity one is too open also, for Infinity; I think we'll be like doubling for next year. The 40k tables will be getting double the large LOS blockers.

Good to hear. And yes, that was a very bad NOVA table there. About the only armies who are happy on a table like that are Drop Pod armies, and Gunlines.

MVBrandt wrote:
Perhaps unrelated, but the game needs a LOT more LOS-blocking terrain than ANY TOURNAMENT PRESENTLY IS FIELDING (yes, I'm including everybody). The game could also use the removal of 2++ re-rolling units (There are 2, and neither is from FW, and both are absurd for the average player to try and deal with, to a level of magnitude greater than anything FW or regular 40k).

Agreed. More terrain, especially LOS blocking terrain, solves most problems with the current game to include Tau gunlines and IG Artillery lists.

MVBrandt wrote:
Talk of whether FW is "broken" seems ... again ... pointless. Familiarity, fairness, comfort-levels, officiality, etc., are all fairly relevant. Point is, there are a lot of FW units (mostly IG) that are very, very difficult for and painful for the average 40k player to deal with. Adding them doesn't really address things like the 2++ re-rollers above, but it also doesn't make the tournament experience any more FORGIVING. It may add variety, but I think that's obvious ... more options should = more variety.

Fair enough, the "broken" talk is mostly subjective for sure, but I do like to try and iron out some of the claims I see about it because they often require there to be a situation where the FW player's dice do nothing wrong, the other player's dice do nothing right and there is nowhere to hide on the table, nor strategies or options to handle it.

I don't think anything other than maybe making everyone play an identical Marine list would make the tournament experience more "forgiving".

MVBrandt wrote:
But I don't really see anyone putting forth the crazy idea that adding more stupid units to the average tournament is actually going to make it nicer on average players, so what's the point of arguing that it won't? It's as much a given as "add more units = more variety is likely."

I disagree with assessing them as "stupid units" (you'll hurt their feelings ), mostly because the issues with the game are ones that come from the core rule mechanics and GW's main dev studio, not FW. FW may have some stuff that's unbalanced now, but they'll beat it with a Nerf Bat if they get enough feedback that there is something wrong (often resulting in free rules until the next book with that unit comes out) while GW does not.

And honestly in a game where people think you need to play X if you're fielding Army Y to win, I'd always welcome more variety (even if all I get out of it are 3 flyers, 2 of which suck and a single Transport which is....kind of awesome while still being very "meh". ).

You're getting to the point well enough; there's 0 point to arguing about what units are broken or not. I don't think Thudd Guns or Vultures are going to improve the Tournament Experience for anyone, and they provably (and already have if you want to actually go looking) worsen the experience for some. BUT the experience can already be AWFUL if you run into a Screamerstar or Jetcouncil. Both lists can be played to above average success by relatively inexperienced gamers frustrating the hell out of average opponents. When you put them in the hands of a top tier player, it becomes absolutely horrid for your average tourney-goer to play against.

FW DOES have units with similar "ugh" nature to them. Trying to prove or disprove that statement, however, is not really the determining factor for whether or not to include them.

Perhaps the biggest issue, that this thread and no other will ever solve, is that there are a LOT of players who either really don't know anything about FW, or who adamantly are against playing with it. While certain REGIONS may differ, this is still the case across the vast majority of at least the US (and I often see European players echo this).

A tournament can build itself up on the "FW legal" front, or it can be big enough in a con environment that changes will generally be sustained by attendance no matter what, but it's very difficult for events in the midranges to take risky gambles on potentially unpopular moves. TOs lose a SHITTON of money running these things as it is. So when a vocal minority (as most vocal groups on the internets are) starts trashing those who make whatever decisions they make (pro FW or against) ... well, it's silly. They're not making their decisions based upon what somebody said was a good or bad unit on the internets. They're making their decisions with the concert of their volunteers and peers in a way they consider mitigates the most risk to their already-taxed wallets in operating their events.

If you want FW, you need to motivate a clear VAST majority from among the PRESENT CONSTITUENTS and potential constituents of the events you're trying to influence. All the back and forth about individual units and how to counter them and whether they're broken or not is utterly pointless in comparison.

MVBrandt wrote:
You're getting to the point well enough; there's 0 point to arguing about what units are broken or not. I don't think Thudd Guns or Vultures are going to improve the Tournament Experience for anyone, and they provably (and already have if you want to actually go looking) worsen the experience for some. BUT the experience can already be AWFUL if you run into a Screamerstar or Jetcouncil. Both lists can be played to above average success by relatively inexperienced gamers frustrating the hell out of average opponents. When you put them in the hands of a top tier player, it becomes absolutely horrid for your average tourney-goer to play against.

Pulling the "broken" argument aside, the point remains that it's not FW or GW's fault then, but rather players who ruin the enjoyment of the game for others by working to create combinations like that.

And even if you Comp the tournament, or rewrite rules or outright ban things you'll never really fix the issue as there are players who just move onto other combos. Like I said, the only way to soften this game is everyone play the same exact army.

MVBrandt wrote:
FW DOES have units with similar "ugh" nature to them. Trying to prove or disprove that statement, however, is not really the determining factor for whether or not to include them.

Honestly that's all personal and depends on the kind of people you play more than the units themselves.

MVBrandt wrote:
Perhaps the biggest issue, that this thread and no other will ever solve, is that there are a LOT of players who either really don't know anything about FW, or who adamantly are against playing with it. While certain REGIONS may differ, this is still the case across the vast majority of at least the US (and I often see European players echo this).

LOTS of players don't even know their own codex properly, much less other people's. Arguing against FW just because people can't be bothered to learn their own codex much less any other is a bit silly since you're not getting past the fact that some people don't want to spend the time or effort to get past their own codex.

MVBrandt wrote:
A tournament can build itself up on the "FW legal" front, or it can be big enough in a con environment that changes will generally be sustained by attendance no matter what, but it's very difficult for events in the midranges to take risky gambles on potentially unpopular moves. TOs lose a SHITTON of money running these things as it is. So when a vocal minority (as most vocal groups on the internets are) starts trashing those who make whatever decisions they make (pro FW or against) ... well, it's silly. They're not making their decisions based upon what somebody said was a good or bad unit on the internets. They're making their decisions with the concert of their volunteers and peers in a way they consider mitigates the most risk to their already-taxed wallets in operating their events.

Oh understandable, which is why I already posted that TOs run what they want, it's their tournament after all.

MVBrandt wrote:
If you want FW, you need to motivate a clear VAST majority from among the PRESENT CONSTITUENTS and potential constituents of the events you're trying to influence. All the back and forth about individual units and how to counter them and whether they're broken or not is utterly pointless in comparison.

And that's fair and I'm not trying to make every tourney do anything, Like I said, it's your event, run what you like. I'm not going to make anyone do or not do anything in that regards nor do I have the free time to bother trying.