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Jouglas, you are so WAACY, you couldn't beat me with a golden FW army hand crafted by Chuck Norris and thrice blessed by the Pope himself!

The Jokes on you Reecius!! Even with my All Golden Forgeworld Army sitting across from your Eldar Army I would be the one pointing and asking "What's that Unit Do again?" "What is that's models Stats again?" and I would still crush you. But you are correct, we should let the last 3 times I've Tabled you in GTs dictate our next meeting. Anything is possible, right? Either way we will play with Class and a Cold Beverage and have an Epic time.

I seem to recall stomping a new mud-hole in your butt last time you played my Eldar!

You're getting senile in your old age, Jouglas!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I choose not to remember the other 3 games which shall not be mentioned! hahaha

I am getting old, thanks for pointing that out. I forget that and where I left my keys more and more these days. You are a Class act GreyBush!

I am a bit surprised you "forgot" the last time we met across the Table. That was the time I showed you the proper way to play IG/SW and tabled you top of 3. Do you still get flash backs or wake up in a cold sweat over that one?

Missed the vote, I need 100% FW allowance or I can't play, period, not enough stuff that can count as for regular IG codex.

Bobthehero, I'm guessing you then need more than unlimited FW- you need FW army lists, too. As I quoted muwhe on the last page, even events (such as Reecius runs!) which allow FW seldom allow the army lists, as the units get updated piecemeal and not the entire list.

So you, as well as Peregrine, are asking for something almost no TO offers currently, and there's a reason for that! The challenges of doing so were listed in muwhe's quote last page, and even Reecius/Dugg aren't pushing for their allowance, nor are they allowed in Reecius' "unrestricted FW" events.

Just don't go to tournaments and play friendly games, problem solved.

I have not been to many tournaments, but the ones I've been to have brought around the realization that I should stop.

If you want to play 100% Forgeworld, just do it, don't look to a tournament to allow you to play it. I'm sure at any LGS you're more then welcome to play Forgeworld, I know I am wherever I play down here. Let's just face facts, tournaments won't EVER go 100% Forgeworld until Forgeworld just starts releasing Codex-type books instead of hundreds of IA lists with bunches of errata and changes in consecutive books.

I mean is it really that hard for Forgeworld to release a book Codex: Elysians, or Codex: Death Korps?? In the end, Forgeworld is more of a narrative team then a straight up rules team, and I know this has been said and fought down, but I believe that to be the reason they don't just release Codex type books.

I'm all for 100% Forgeworld, but I understand the restrictions at tournaments, it's already 110% of their work to get the venues, prizes, and players... now they have to go through the FW books and compile all the latest versions? Nah, just play in regular games, I don't find tournaments to be 'Standard' games.

Since you asked needle, no. Your viewpoint is unrestricted fw. Nearly 80% of those polled disagree with you. Not even 50% want even restricted forgeworld. Just the way it is. And as others have pointed out, the pro fw crowd would be better off noting that at least quite a few people are ok with a little bit. It destroys your position entirely to subsequently either spit on that outcome or try to spin it as broader than it is.

Matt also makes an excellent point. Tournament organizers are bracketed with myriad costs and concerns. None of these prevent playing with any rules, even ones you make up yourself, on a daily basis.

 Dugg wrote:
I am getting old, thanks for pointing that out. I forget that and where I left my keys more and more these days. You are a Class act GreyBush!

I am a bit surprised you "forgot" the last time we met across the Table. That was the time I showed you the proper way to play IG/SW and tabled you top of 3. Do you still get flash backs or wake up in a cold sweat over that one?

You didn't table me, I conceded! hahaha

@Thread

And guys, this argument has run its course. If you like FW cool, if not, cool. Room for both types of events.

Viva la variety!

Look at what you started Reece. you should feel bad

Reecius, I like your posts man but you started this thread, then you want to end it when discussion points to data that doesn't line up with your stance. You just laid out the exact wrong takeaway to draw from this data, imo, so forgive me for picking out this phrase:

If you like FW cool, if not, cool.

That's not what I'm getting from it- in fact, just the opposite! That there is a middle ground! I'm getting fed up with the idea that I'm either on the short bus or not, the party bus or not, etc. The poll points to a lot of folks (and I'll call out Hulksmash here as one of them, since he voted in it) that want, and are open, to a compromise position. Allowing in some FW for a start, but not unlimited.

It really doesn't have to be the the jocks versus the nerds here. That baseball playing kid just learned about sabermetrics. And that nerd just discovered all the angles required to play racquetball well, or something. Again, forgive me the analogies but the point is, and I'm going to capitalize this:

It doesn't have to be one or the other!

Okay. Got that off my chest. But please, every time the discussion starts to go somewhere, I see you say "Haha guys it's cool nevermind I'll play with FW you do whatever you want". While that's fine to say, a lot of folks are actually interested in possible other outcomes than "live and let live" here, and some of those may indeed be more events starting to allow 0-1 selection of any FW unit or the like. To me, that'd be a great win for all sides. Blackmoor is open to it, and I have to assume you're open to it. What's not to love about that!

Cheers

Edit: Oh, and don't go getting Dakka added to China's ban list with first Alpharius, now you and Dugg posting from over there . They're going to wonder what's going on!

Any other Pro FW players surprised the pro votes where that high even? I was. I thought this was pretty cool actually. This means people are coming around. I am curious how many of the Con votes were outside of the US players. I would guess a majority, after talking so much with my buddies abroad that run events.

I have faith that this will happen, eventually. It might take some time. I know I'm a big Pro FW guy, but I think it's fun and enjoy it and I hope you guys come over to the FW side. IT'S A BLAST!!!

Strong words Doug. This thread is one big internet three stooges act haha.

 Reecius wrote:

@Thread

And guys, this argument has run its course. If you like FW cool, if not, cool. Room for both types of events.

Viva la variety!

Reese, now that you have seen the results from tournament players do you wonder how much money you have left on the table?

I have been a big supporter of Frontline Gaming events in the past, but after the inclusion of Forge World I have cooled on them. I did not go to Anime-Expo or Duelcon because of this, so I know that it cost you some money.

Reading HippestHippo’s post he is reluctant to buy a LVO ticket because of this. I am sure that I am not the only one and there are others who feel this way as well.

 Dugg wrote:
I am curious how many of the Con votes were outside of the US players. I would guess a majority, after talking so much with my buddies abroad that run events.

That is pure speculation that "con" votes were from non-US players

Dugg wrote:I hope you guys come over to the FW side.

The whole point of my above post is that it doesn't have to be a "side". There is a great compromise position, I don't know why you choose to completely ignore it in your posts (Reecius as well).

Many more folks will "come around", as you say, if you embrace a position that allows limited FW. Of those surveyed, less than 20% agree with the position you and Reecius have been pushing for!

I'm hammering on this because your posts/dialogue seem unchanged even when discussing a poll like this. Why won't you consider a middle ground position for starters? When Reecius says "Viva la variety", why would you (referring to Reecius now) not consider running an event that allows limited FW, just for variety and to let people dip their toes in? It does not have to be "all or nothing".

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Reecius wrote:

@Thread

And guys, this argument has run its course. If you like FW cool, if not, cool. Room for both types of events.

Viva la variety!

Reese, now that you have seen the results from tournament players do you wonder how much money you have left on the table?

I have been a big supporter of Frontline Gaming events in the past, but after the inclusion of Forge World I have cooled on them. I did not go to Anime-Expo or Duelcon because of this, so I know that is cost you some money.

Reading HippestHippo’s post he is reluctant to buy a LVO ticket because of this. I am sure that I am not the only one and there are others who feel this way as well.

It's actually the reason I won't consider LVO as well - I know you guys put on a good show, but at the end of the day its a moderately expensive trip due to flying (compared to other GTs) and has a format (full FW) I don't care for at all. So if I went, i'd really just be going to be in Vegas, which I can schedule on my own. That being said, different strokes for different folks and such, and it sounds like it'll be a success regardless, but there may be room to take a middle ground and garner more attendees

Well, don't let this discourage future LVO's... I am not a tournament fan, but my friend and I are definitely in for this if you do it again the following year!

What's better then Vegas? 40K AND Vegas... yes.

 Matt1785 wrote:
What's better then Vegas? 40K AND Vegas... yes.

40K, Vegas, and limited FW allowance, maybe?

I'm just saying "Viva la variety" means that, it'd be really great to see a variety of events offered out west. I'm on the east coast so it's not an issue for me, but it seems Frontline only runs "unrestricted FW" events now.

By the same token, it'd be great to see some limited FW allowance added to some events on the east coast that currently don't allow any FW (not all events, just some ).

@RiTides

Open to, not necessarily want

@Reece

The open season on FW has been a reason quite a few of the locals in my area who travel x'd vegas off their plans for next year.

Personally, I'm in the same boat at Target. You guys run great events from what I hear (I moved before you got rolling) but I'm just not enough of a fan of all FW 40k to fly to Vegas for the weekend. And it's something I would likely put on my calendar if it was limited FW. But it'll likely be a great event even without me there (some would say better ).

@Thread and @Reece

Counter-point: Allowing FW units at LVO actually encouraged me to sign up.

I *like* the variety FW brings to the game. I *enjoy* having to adapt and overcome the challenges that FW units can bring to the table. I'm actually considering bringing a list w/o any FW units. Just to see if I can take on the "supposed unfair FW units".

My motto?

"Bring it bish!"

Played a Scorpian list recently with Loth.

Loth still went down under a hail storm of splinter cannons. 'cuz everyon knows it's just an beaky!

Just as a thought...I suspect that had you polled people on Special Characters in say, 2006, your responses would have been similar, with Special Characters still requiring opponents permission and often/usually banned at many tournaments.

Such a practice just a couple years later would engender nothing but ridicule.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Just as a thought...I suspect that had you polled people on Special Characters in say, 2006, your responses would have been similar, with Special Characters still requiring opponents permission and often/usually banned at many tournaments.

Such a practice just a couple years later would engender nothing but ridicule.

That is because GW removed the wording in codexes that special characters were with opponent’s permission...that and the fact that back then special characters sucked.

And if, as rumored, GW similarly changes/clarifes/WhateverVerbYouWant their stance regarding FW to make it "more mainstream", you will be right Vaktathi. But that has not happened yet... I will be happy when it does, one way or the other

I think the finecast going away / going to FW production rumor ties into this, too- that would certainly spur GW to make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that all FW products are allowed. So, maybe we'll finally get that over and done with in 2014

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Just as a thought...I suspect that had you polled people on Special Characters in say, 2006, your responses would have been similar, with Special Characters still requiring opponents permission and often/usually banned at many tournaments.

Such a practice just a couple years later would engender nothing but ridicule.

That is because GW removed the wording in codexes that special characters were with opponent’s permission...that and the fact that back then special characters sucked.

The "Opponents Permission" thing remained a written rule in many codex books up until they got replaced in 5th edition, the rule still existed after the convention became ignored for many armies.

The convention of "opponents permission' however is something that people realized applies to literally everything and you can't force someone to play against anything they don't want to, leading to FW's statement of "Our units are official Warhammer 40,000 units. If someone does not wish to play against our units, as they may not wish to play against a Codex:Tau Empire Army for example, that is their decision." FW has stated that they make units intended to be used in 'standard' games of Warhammer 40,000, within the usual limitations of Codex selection and force organisation charts (almost word for word there).

It would appear the situation isn't much different, even many FW units also suck (just as with SC's, some suck, some are really good).

 RiTides wrote:
And if, as rumored, GW similarly changes/clarifes/WhateverVerbYouWant their stance regarding FW to make it "more mainstream", you will be right Vaktathi. But that has not happened yet... I will be happy when it does, one way or the other

I will be too, I hope this happens, however as I explained earlier, I don't know if we'll ever get such a statement, because from GW's perspective, they already have and they don't need executive management to do it.

I think the finecast going away / going to FW production rumor ties into this, too- that would certainly spur GW to make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that all FW products are allowed. So, maybe we'll finally get that over and done with in 2014

We can only hope

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Just as a thought...I suspect that had you polled people on Special Characters in say, 2006, your responses would have been similar, with Special Characters still requiring opponents permission and often/usually banned at many tournaments.

Such a practice just a couple years later would engender nothing but ridicule.

That is because GW removed the wording in codexes that special characters were with opponent’s permission...that and the fact that back then special characters sucked.

But when FW removes same special wording it doesn't count. Amazing the double standards some people have about the same company.

 Matt1785 wrote:
Just don't go to tournaments and play friendly games, problem solved.


I mean is it really that hard for Forgeworld to release a book Codex: Elysians, or Codex: Death Korps??

No, here's Codex: Siege Regiment http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/dkksiegelist.pdf

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Just as a thought...I suspect that had you polled people on Special Characters in say, 2006, your responses would have been similar, with Special Characters still requiring opponents permission and often/usually banned at many tournaments.

Such a practice just a couple years later would engender nothing but ridicule.

That is because GW removed the wording in codexes that special characters were with opponent’s permission...that and the fact that back then special characters sucked.

But when FW removes same special wording it doesn't count. Amazing the double standards some people have about the same company.

Exactly!

One is GW and the other is FW.

I hate to point this out, but BFG, who's FW is far more broken then 40k's will ever be, allowed FW at Adepticon last year.

The world did not end. No villages were burned, no women raped, no daemons summoned.

The change to meta was far, far less than the release of, say, FAQ 2010.

This is the same group of people who screamed and shat themselves when space marines were offered the ability to swap the BC for single str 2 lance weapon on the SM strike cruiser for no additional points. For those not into the game, they are two broadly similar weapons at roughly the same str value.

FW ships for BFG are freaking awesome. But there aren't nearly as many units for BFG as there are for 40k from FW.

The same is true for fantasy, chaos dwarfs are easy to allow as it's just one list in one book. 40k is a very different beast, and the work required to include it is a lot more severe than for BFG or fantasy.

But maybe you were volunteering

Haha, you guys, read the title of the thread, this was obviously a joke from day one. I totally accept that I started this so, fair enough, I take responsibility for that, but I reserve the right to declare when it has gone to absurd level! haha

@Blackmoor

Blackmoor, bud, you do support our events by coming to most of them but you have talked more gak about them than any single person on the internet, ever, by a large margin. If you come or not you will still talk about what happened, probably critically and then follow it up with, but I like the guys and will probably go to the event, like you always do. Either way it doesn't matter, because you'll still find something to be critical about, haha, it's just the way you are. Some people will come with FW, some won't. The people posting on these and other forums tend to represent a very vocal minority of people so we don't worry too much about this chatter here. It is almost entirely anecdotal, anyway.

@RiTides

I am not saying stop the conversation, I am saying it's run its course and we're bored with it. Look at Doug and my posts through the thread, we're just goofing off at this point because what's been said has been said. Some people seem to think Adepticon's poll is a victory one way or the other when all it is is a sample of opinion of people who go to that specific event and it shows what we already know: a lot of folks want it both ways. Our polls have showed the people who go to our events want FW so there you have it.

You guys can keep going round and round with it if you choose, but I am tired of it, personally. I am getting off of the merry-go-round.

@Hulk and Co.

If you guys choose not to go because you may play against FW, OK. That is your choice. Some folks choose not to go because it is in Vegas (believe it or not) or because we use layered missions or because they don't like us or because they don't like no comp events, or no sports, or player placed terrain, or no player placed terrain, or competitive events or whatever. On pretty much every issue you can think of pertaining to running a tournament we've had folks tell us this issue or another is a deal breaker for them.

Long story short, we can't and won't please everyone. We don't even care if we please everyone, haha, just as many as we can. We strive to please everyone but accept it is an impossible goal to achieve in actuality. And, according to our polls, data shows us unequivocally that the people that want to go to our events want FW. if that changes, so will we. Easy peasy.

So, come and have fun to our event if you want, it looks like it's going to sell out with or without you FW opponents either way so no sweat off our back. We'd love to see you come of course, genuinely, but we won't shed any tears if you don't.