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Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior





A fully kitted out Space Marine has to weigh well over 300 kg. Why don’t they get stuck in mud or come crashing though floor of ruined building and stuff like that. Is there any explanation for this or is this just a “huge power armor is really cool” willing suspension of disbelief thing.
   
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Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





It's "power" armor. Designed to allow the user to operate in inhospitable environments. Presumably t has enough power that the wearer can get out of most physical situations.

That said, there are certainly areas in a few books where a marine does indeed crash through a floor or become stuck in a quagmire and dragged down to their deaths.

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Building materials are much stronger in the 41st Millennium. It's the same reason that Hive Spires don't collapse in on themselves.

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A naked Space Marine weighs, himself, 780 pounds.

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Hallowed Canoness




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Exact numbers and other background details will obviously differ depending on what sources one would be reading, but the following is from the 2E Codex: Angels of Death, which probably featured the most extensive description of power armour in any GW book to date - note the 2nd paragraph's last sentence:

The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite armour plates which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special 'honeycomb' design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium.

On its own, a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs, and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move while wearing it were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour. These fibre bundles replicate the wearer's movements, and allow him to move about easily and freely. In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy damper which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being.

The energy source of power armour is a small battery using a stacked atomic chain which is housed in the suit's back pack. The back pack also contains all the extra equipment needed to maintain life-support, air recycling, fluid recovery, and the various automatic medical functions.

The suit's helmet is fitted with automatic sensory devices which allow the wearer to see and hear quite normally, but he can also see infra-red and ultra-violet light, and hear a wider range of sound frequencies. The wearer is also able to selectively enhance a visual image or sound should he wish. If exposed to blinding lights or deafening noises, the computer processor acts as a safety valve and dampens down the stimuli preventing damage to the Space Marine.
   
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If it's reducing the suit's inetria then the Marine is actually hitting SOFTER because of it. Power armour punches = kid gloves in comparision.
   
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Hence why they are only Strength 4. They sacrifice strength for mobility.

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Zookie wrote:
A fully kitted out Space Marine has to weigh well over 300 kg. Why don’t they get stuck in mud or come crashing though floor of ruined building and stuff like that. Is there any explanation for this or is this just a “huge power armor is really cool” willing suspension of disbelief thing.


Well to discuss the usefulness of any form of powered personnel suits one must first understand where the idea came from -
words from the grandfather of power armors himself:

"... The inside of the suit is a mass of pressure receptors, hundreds of them. You push with the heel of your hand; the suit feels, amplifies it, pushes with you to take the pressure off the receptors that gave the order to push. ...negative feedback is always a confusing idea the first time, even though your body has been doing ever since you quit kicking helplessly as a baby"
-- Heilein, Robert, A. Starship Troopers, ch.7.
-- Pengui Group. Digital

Meaning the so-called "suits" enhances their strength, speed, and arguably reaction speed (as now your limbs moves faster than it would have without the suit) without actually increasing the encumbrance of the wearer. It's also worth noting that the powered suits in Heilein's novel allows its wearer to control multiple weapon modules attached to the suit through sensors in the suit (it is described that a MI can move his jaw to, or place his fingers in just the right position to control the ports that signals the comm-link and weapon modules; not as sophisticated the black carapace, mind you.)

Now to the 40k universe: extracts from the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex states that:

"... Power armour... Made from thick creamite plates and electrically motivated fibre bundles that replicate and enhance the movements of the wearer... offers some of the best protection the Imperium can provide. ..."
-- Haines, Pete, and Graham. Codex: Space Marines. ed 4. pg. 102

which follows pretty much the same technical explanation as that from Starship Troopers, so one can assume it works, to a degree, the same as the MI suits.

Now to real-life examples: from the wikipedia page on Powered exoskeleton:

"The main function of a powered exoskeleton is to assist the wearer by boosting their strength and endurance."
"Power Armor." Wikipedia. Wikimedia Foundation, 29 Oct. 2013. Web. 01 Nov. 2013.

Accordingly, what few examples of power armors we have today are capable of either enhancing user strength (XOS and HAL 5) or serving as bionics for amputees. They have served well enough to empower, as opposed to pulling back, the users.

TL;DR: pretty much every body else said. P.S.: I just really need a night to quote random stuffs to keep myself from going nuts.
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob






Soft ground isn't going to be a huge issue so long as you weigh less than half a ton or so. You can increase the foot's surface area quite a bit without causing too many issues, as proven by snowshoes.

Going by this artwork...

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130626181641/warhammer40k/images/1/13/Ultramarines_Artificer_Armour2.jpg

If the marine is 8 feet tall, I estimate his feet to be around 16" long and 10" wide, which gives roughly ten times the surface area of a normal human foot.

However, that doesn't help with weak floors, because it's more a matter of total weight than surface pressure in that case. Marines probably need to be quite aware of the strength of any structure they are walking in. I guess it's possible that their armour's auto-senses have some way of helping them avoid walking in areas that can't support their weight...

   
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Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh





Christchurch, NZ

A Space Marine probably does come crashing through buildings on occasion, but would prefer to tell you about the time he fought off 340 Tyranids with a half-empty bolt pistol and a length of rusty pipe.

As has been said, surface area of the feet and gravity dampers would help with the weight of the armour. Bear in mind though, even a Guardsman would have to watch where he was walking to avoid falling through a ruin or drowning in a swamp. A Space Marine would just have to be more careful.

I'm now picturing a crane pulling a disgruntled, muddy Ultramarine out of a swamp while his brothers point and laugh...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 11:14:24


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I think there is fluff written about marines in power armour smashing through stuff when they land from orbit... Also maybe the exhaust ports in a suit have a limited lifting ability for if they fall into a bog of whatever? Hey, if they fell into a bog, it wouldn't matter anyway, there's even fluff about them fighting wars underwater

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 Psienesis wrote:
A naked Space Marine weighs, himself, 780 pounds.
lol

No.

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All together, even if the Marine with his armor weighed 1k pounds it wouldn't be a huge issue.

Its all down to surface pressure. A 100 pound women wearing high heels exerts greater force on the floor than a 250 pound man wearing sneakers.

A normal structure of any integrity would be able to support a marine.


The difference between a marine walking across a weakened structure and a normal human would be small. You wouldn't have the case where its perfectly fine for a human to walk across but a marine will crash right through.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 18:28:14


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 Omegus wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
A naked Space Marine weighs, himself, 780 pounds.
lol

No.


That's about accurate, actually.

At seven feet tall, a muscular man can weigh about, say, from 300+ pounds (Like Shaq) or over 400 (As in, say, the Great Khali or the Big Show).

A Space Marine is proportionately far more muscular and wider than a human being, with bones reinforced by metalz and gak, extra organs, or the black carapace.

Plus, the Deathwatch numbers support 700 pound Space Marines.

How much do you think they should weigh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grey Templar wrote:
All together, even if the Marine with his armor weighed 1k pounds it wouldn't be a huge issue.

Its all down to surface pressure. A 100 pound women wearing high heels exerts greater force on the floor than a 250 pound man wearing sneakers.

A normal structure of any integrity would be able to support a marine.


The difference between a marine walking across a weakened structure and a normal human would be small. You wouldn't have the case where its perfectly fine for a human to walk across but a marine will crash right through.




Look at how big a Marine's boots are. You know what they say about big boots. Big boots, greater surface area to distribute your weight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 06:51:03


 
   
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Nasty Nob






Spreading your weight across a wider surface area isn't going to stop you falling through a floor though. Floorboards already spread your weight out, but if you put too much total weight on there, the beams (or whatever support elements there are) will break anyway.

A tank might have less surface pressure under it's tracks than a car has under it's wheels, but it will still break bridges that are perfectly safe for cars. Total mass does matter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 09:14:07


   
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I can't recall a Space Marine ever actually standing in, say, a rusty shack.
   
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 Omegus wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
A naked Space Marine weighs, himself, 780 pounds.
lol

No.


Average NFL defensive tackle, arguably the closest real-life example we have to someone on the build of a Space Marine, is 6'2" and weighs 300 pounds.. A Space Marine is, on average, a full foot taller, half again as wide, with *significantly* increased muscle-mass, a subdermal armored shell on his ribcage and several extra organs. Being more than twice the weight of a football player is not so hard to imagine.

For comparative imagery:

Spoiler:



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I thought the Marines were at least 8'?

Saw a picture of it somewhere.

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BrotherHaraldus wrote:I thought the Marines were at least 8'?

Saw a picture of it somewhere.
In GW's material, Marines average 7 feet in armour - this appears mainly in the codices, but Jes Goodwin once also drew a lifesize picture for their Inquisitor game:

Spoiler:


Perhaps this is the picture you saw. Note, however, that the scale begins at 2 feet instead of at 1 ... a mistake that Jes admitted in this podcast (where he also jokes about how Marines seem to get "progressively bigger in every book" in reference to the liberties that certain Black Libary authors take).
Due to 40k fluff being what it is, such detail are up to the individual author or fan to decide, and independent from GW's original writings it just seems that a lot of people think "bigger = better".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 22:39:39


 
   
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 Lynata wrote:
BrotherHaraldus wrote:I thought the Marines were at least 8'?

Saw a picture of it somewhere.
In GW's material, Marines average 7 feet in armour - this appears mainly in the codices, but Jes Goodwin once also drew a lifesize picture for their Inquisitor game:

Spoiler:


Perhaps this is the picture you saw. Note, however, that the scale begins at 2 feet instead of at 1 ... a mistake that Jes admitted in this podcast (where he also jokes about how Marines seem to get "progressively bigger in every book" in reference to the liberties that certain Black Libary authors take).
Due to 40k fluff being what it is, such detail are up to the individual author or fan to decide, and independent from GW's original writings it just seems that a lot of people think "bigger = better".


Ah, that is the one. I had only seen the upper part of it, I did not see that it started at 2'! Yes, this seems understandable. Strange, I have always imagined them at the very least 8' if not taller, but then, I am the kind of person that often oversizes things!

To be honest, massive size is not needed for intimidation. Just stand next to someone a head taller than you and they will seem of a respectful height. A 7'+ Marine in full plate would be enough to be darn scary, at least I would not want to get too close.

780 pounds, that's around 350 kg right? Seems reasonable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 22:49:40


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BrotherHaraldus wrote:Ah, that is the one. I had only seen the upper part of it, I did not see that it started at 2'! Yes, this seems understandable. Strange, I have always imagined them at the very least 8' if not taller, but then, I am the kind of person that often oversizes things!
To be honest, massive size is not needed for intimidation. Just stand next to someone a head taller than you and they will seem of a respectful height. A 7'+ Marine in full plate would be enough to be darn scary, at least I would not want to get too close.
Agreed - I've seen such comments from a lot of posters in threads about Marine heights, that many of us just have difficulty assessing how big 7 feet actually are in a direct comparison. Those couple dozen centimeters can make a hell of a difference.
Also, what Jes mentioned in the podcast is that "it's not how tall they are, but how absolutely massive". After all, those guys are easily as wide as two normal persons.
   
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In all honesty... I'll confess that to me one of the charms of 40K is the part of the (Admittedly very very inconsistent) lore that depicts the Marines as warrior gods. It's one thing that, to me, sets it apart from the other fictional universes that I involve myself in, such as the Warcraft and Starcraft settings. It is pretty much what drew me in in the first place. It gives it a certain charm to me, not only to the Marines, but also to the Guardsmen who fight bravely despite the utterly ridicolous odds they face. It's a bit of an interpretation thing and has always been, since in some places we see Marines beat loads of enemies alone and in others we see Guardsmen killing a Chaos Dreadnought using what is essentially a cactus. Despite that, though, I am fairly certain that my views are firmly in minority- Which I am okay with! In fact, at this point, it is almost more like opinion than interpretation.

In my own sweaty nerdy fangirl-interpretation, the food chain goes somewhat like this, to use common examples;

Guardsman VS Ork: Guardsman's weapon can wound the Ork somewhat, but once in melee the Guardsman does not have a shadow of a chance. Ork wins easily 1 on 1.

Marine VS Ork: Even an unarmed Marine can easily tear and rip his way through many of Orks without stopping.

Guardsman VS Marine: Marine is practically invulnerable to the Guardsman's attacks thanks to his armour, and can oneshot the Guardsman in whatever way he prefers, whether it is blowing off half his body with a bolt shell or just reduce his bones to powder with a punch.

...Yes, it is ridiculous, I know. Especially compared to the game rules. It's the super-hero syndrome I assume. But hey, just my opinion.

I suppose the fact that my entire local meta (Not any more than just below 10 people, admittedly...) supports my views of the fluff makes me feel less bad about them.

Of course, I am not going around forcing my opinions onto others, or anything like that. I'd probably use my own interpretation if I ever make a fanfic or something, but other than that, it just plays out in my head.

...Well I'm terribly sorry for the above madness. But I digress. We can go back to the topic of marine weight now.





This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/03 03:03:00


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The Conquerer






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It does depend on the specific circumstances involved in the fight.

In a dense urban environment with little long distance visibility the Marine could probably take on an indeterminable amount of Guardsmen or Ork foes provided he used his superior stealth abilities and other senses to perform hit and run attacks. A straight up fight with no cover or concealment would be a different matter as even the strongest individual could be subdued by superior numbers.

A guy with a sword could kill hundreds of guys with knifes as long as they only fight him a couple at a time, but he'd lose to as few as 3-5 if they all rushed him at once.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

I think the Space Marine game compaign is accurate...

...The question is just, Easy, Normal, or Hard?

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I might be willing to subscribe to that idea if you'd never magically regenerate health by "executing" opponents in a "cool" fashion...

It's just a matter of personal preferences. I have an almost allergic aversion to seemingly invulnerable superheroes - at least in settings or stories that do not focus entirely on them - and just find most depictions of Space Marines in licensed material utterly boring due to missing the weaknesses that make situations at least seem threatening to the protagonist.

So, in contrast to your perspective, one of the charms of 40k for me is the part that debunks this depiction as "warrior gods" as being a product of legend and propaganda, and that allows even Imperial Guard lasguns to punch through Marine armour and injure the wearer.

But as you already insinuated, this portrayal isn't consistent, especially once you move away from the codices and into novels or, well, computer games like Space Marine. Any faction receiving its own licensed product generally enjoys a certain amount of plot armour to make sure the protagonist/s survive until the end, but as we all know there's a lot more of said products for Marines than for anyone else, thus probably "nudging" common perception closer to the warrior god interpretation.

In the end, 40k is what we want it to be. For better or worse (considering all the heated debates).
   
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 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I thought the Marines were at least 8'?

Saw a picture of it somewhere.

I think we can allow some variance to Marine height. If someone of average height would become 7'6" upon becoming a Space Marine, what happens when the 7'6" basketball player becomes a Space Marine? I guess then you get the 9' tall Abnettmarines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/03 19:36:38


Fluff for the Fluff God!
 
   
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Well, depending on how the genetic enhancements work. It might be that they wouldn't provide much of a boost because such a body is already developed above standard - especially on feral worlds where people generally wouldn't grow very high due to local diet (see medieval body heights).

A greater problem would be, though, that such an excessively big Marine would require special armour made exclusively for him, and unable to wear any of the Chapter relics made for "normal Marines". He would also find it troublesome to sit down in a Rhino APC (which is already a design originally meant for ordinary humans) or another vehicle.

And then you'd have to apply the same line of thinking to smaller people making for smaller Marines ...


I think it'd be easier to just decide how big one would like to have their Marines, and then roll with it - meaning, either using the numbers provided by GW, or pretending that Abnettmarines are the standard. That way you'd at least circumvent the equipment size incompatibilities.
   
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 Omegus wrote:
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I thought the Marines were at least 8'?

Saw a picture of it somewhere.

I think we can allow some variance to Marine height. If someone of average height would become 7'6" upon becoming a Space Marine, what happens when the 7'6" basketball player becomes a Space Marine? I guess then you get the 9' tall Abnettmarines.


Its certainly possible for there to be 8'+ marines, just not very common.

So most Marines would be around seven feet give or take, and then maybe one out of every fifty or so are eight foot or taller.

The funny thing is that their width may give a false impression of height. If someone only six inches taller than you is standing next to you they look way taller than they actually are. Make them built like a rhino and they are positively enormous.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/03 20:17:30


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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