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I'm honestly wondering why people don't think this KS isn't good value. As it stands $100US will net you 28 infantry minis, which work out at less than $4 a figure before you factor in getting a hardbook rulebook, fate deck and counters to boot.
The galaxy is littered with the single-planet graveyards of civilisations which made the economically sensible decision not to explore space.
Those stretch goals are sad. One thing I've learned from backing a lot of campaigns at this point is that you use that first day to really drive up the pledge value by making the deal a sweet one to start with. While the initial offerings aren't terrible, they aren't anywhere near as enticing as what a lot of other Kickstarter veteran companies offer up.
It's not like this is Wyrd's first time at the show either.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
Are they really selling these PVC titans at 75$ US a piece !!!!!! Game seems interesting but these prices are worrying. ANd did anyone ever bought some PVC from Wyrd? If so, how is the qulaity. Going by the pic, the minis seem really good but I'd like a rea perspective before pledging.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/14 22:32:42
lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039
PVC as a material has certainly come a long way from the Relic Knight days. Apparently this is going to be completely preassembled as well, which is interesting. Wyrd's test model for the material (Aionus) turned out pretty well, but its also a Dali melting clock design that makes good use of PVC problems. I'm not sure if this game is my thing yet, but I'm hopeful between this and Guild Ball, we might be seeing PVC come into its own.
Watching the gameplay view, it seems pretty close to Malifaux in terms of howthings are resolved. They've shaved some stats off and added some complexities to how duels are resolved though. I like how it appears to work.
The commander system is interesting. I haven't seen a game balanced in that way before. Players decide on how many commanders to use, then select factions, then see the mission objective, then select commanders and commanders bring a certain amount of points with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunarSol wrote: PVC as a material has certainly come a long way from the Relic Knight days. Apparently this is going to be completely preassembled as well, which is interesting. Wyrd's test model for the material (Aionus) turned out pretty well, but its also a Dali melting clock design that makes good use of PVC problems. I'm not sure if this game is my thing yet, but I'm hopeful between this and Guild Ball, we might be seeing PVC come into its own.
They also did the Tortoise and Hare set in the material. I rather like them.
Prices are higher than I expected, but I'm willing to gamble that the required amount of models is still fairly low, which is my main issue with GW pricing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/14 22:53:19
.Mikes. wrote: I'm honestly wondering why people don't think this KS isn't good value. As it stands $100US will net you 28 infantry minis, which work out at less than $4 a figure before you factor in getting a hardbook rulebook, fate deck and counters to boot.
Breotan wrote: Let's see what they mean when they say "plastic".
...custom blend of PVC...
Aaaaaaaand I'm out. To those of you pledging, I wish you the best and hope this turns out well for you.
Yeah, like PP and Soda Pop, Wyrd is offering PVC for more than it's worth.
streetsamurai wrote: Are they really selling these PVC titans at 75$ US a piece !!!!!! Game seems interesting but these prices are worrying. ANd did anyone ever bought some PVC from Wyrd? If so, how is the qulaity. Going by the pic, the minis seem really good but I'd like a rea perspective before pledging.
I got the Tortoise and Hare set, too. The detail was very good, although I think Malifaux's cartoony art style helped on that front. The tortoise's sword and belt/ribbons were a little bent, but I expect that some hot water will fix them. Be warned that the material is far harder than HIPS, and any mold lines absolutely must be cleaned off with a knife. Files just scratch the material.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." -Napoleon
.Mikes. wrote: I'm honestly wondering why people don't think this KS isn't good value. As it stands $100US will net you 28 infantry minis, which work out at less than $4 a figure before you factor in getting a hardbook rulebook, fate deck and counters to boot.
Allegiance box is $125, titan is $90, rule book is $60. Total value is $275 for $160, roughly 42% off, better than you'll get online, which seems to cap around 30%. The real question is whether the PVC figures are worth that, or if saving an extra 10% a year+ in advance is worth it. Have they said who the manufacturer is? Their artists are going to have to account for shrinkage in a way they don't for HIPS, and even there I feel the faces tend to have weak detail due to being more truescale and not exaggerated.
.Mikes. wrote: I'm honestly wondering why people don't think this KS isn't good value. As it stands $100US will net you 28 infantry minis, which work out at less than $4 a figure before you factor in getting a hardbook rulebook, fate deck and counters to boot.
Allegiance box is $125, titan is $90, rule book is $60. Total value is $275 for $160, roughly 42% off, better than you'll get online, which seems to cap around 30%. The real question is whether the PVC figures are worth that, or if saving an extra 10% a year+ in advance is worth it. Have they said who the manufacturer is? Their artists are going to have to account for shrinkage in a way they don't for HIPS, and even there I feel the faces tend to have weak detail due to being more truescale and not exaggerated.
They've got 2 sets at retail in the material. Barring improvments made since those you can already see what the quality will be, and their artists obviously have some experience in the material having a couple of kits out already.
Whether PVC is worth it, well, that's all down to personal preference. Having handled their previous PVC attempts, I'm happy enough with the kickstarter prices. But I'm not a fan of the retail prices. Given I already have 2, potentially 3 opponents buying in, I feel an Allegiance set + titan is worth the buy in. Especially since the titan is 30% off in the commander bundle. I doubt I'll get any add ons unless they manage to unlock The Frenzy, since I love me some land sharks, since the add on prices seem to be about RRP with online discount that you'll find everywhere.
Honestly, the Allegiance set against the add ons does feel like GW pricing. The Allegiance set comes with a lot (three squads and commander already add up to more than buying those squads retail) and includes a rulebook, fate deck and tokens for a pretty bargan price compared to the add ons which are fairly pricey. Looking at GW's 'start collecting' sets and then the prices of stuff outside of them, there's a clear comparison. However, the size of GW games means you'll want multiples of those bundles, and multiples of other units outside of them. As long as Wyrd keep the model count down and dont encourage buying repeat units, the only pricing I have issue with is the Titans which seem really high.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/15 01:33:05
Ended up backing at the Commander level for the Gibbering Hordes stuff. Bonus that I know of 3 othr people, possible 5 or more, that are already backing and regular at my FLGS, so I know I'll be able to get games right away which is good.
Do all the math needed, but for the material its super over coasted. More expensive then some of GWs products by a good bit.
CMON, Soda Pop. They use the same material. They also product a ton of minis for a solid price. Way cheaper then this.
This seems more money grab then anything.
The stretch goals are also poop.
Big pass on me.
The problem with those is it's hard for retailers to carry the game after a campaign like that. When there's so many kickstarter exclusives, it creates an air of getting a lesser product at retail. When they're not kickstarter exclusive but general release, people tend to back at higher levels which gives them a lot of stuff at a discount to sell on the secondary market which costs retailers sales, especially sicne they often hit the secondary market before retailers get their stock. This isn't a big box one and done game, it's an ongoing supported main line game. Killing your retail potential with a too generous kickstarter might get you a lot of initial money, but you'll lose out when it's on the shelves.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/15 04:33:38
.Mikes. wrote: Does anyone have a link to explain the pros and cons of PVC models?
PVC is a softer plastic that doesn't hold detail as well as Polystyrene or Resin.
It's gotten a lot better since the dark Relic Knights days. Black Plagues models were very well detailed and used PVC, as are Wyrds current PVC offerings of Aionus and the Tortoise and Hare.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/15 05:07:59
PVC is cheaper to manufacture and allows for substantial undercuts in molds.
But it's a complete pain to clean because it's bendy, and unless you're one of the 2 or so companies who know what they're doing with the material, the detail is generally trashed by shrinkage. I've heard good things about CMON, and have experienced Journey Wrath of Demons, and PVC can be good, but I generally hate the stuff, and won't approach it unless the price is right and/or the model is so fantastic I'll tolerate the material.
That's fair enough. I was just trying to point out the technology around casting material itself has gotten much better, and Wyrds test forays into the material are rather good. So if they've improved beyond that, well, I think the detail will be fine. PVC gets a bum deal because early kickstarters using it were pretty crap, and some receont ones haven't been so hot either. I trust Wyrd to get it right.
Cleanup is still an issue, but then I find it easier to clean than metal models. Corvus Bellis latest offerings have been pretty bad to clean up, but I tolerated it because I liked the models.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/15 06:25:05
A $100 buy in for a game seems pretty standard, I'm surprised people aren't finding this a good deal. It's a full, playable force for $100, and it's a company sized game, that's pretty good. I'm still not sure if I'm going to back as I am currently playing too many games, but I can see splitting the two commander level with someone and playing some small games before buying in further.
And I've just about finished up my Deadzone stuff so my queue is opening up (though still have that MEdge box staring at me).
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings. Look on My works, Ye Mighty, and despair.
Chris Gohlinghorst wrote:Holy Space Marine on a Stick.
This conversation has even begun to boggle my internet-hardened mind.
Folks like myself who have dealt with PP''s PVC or the Deadzone''s original KS stuff are often leery of the stuff.
I mean I love PP but their PVC kits are damnd annoying to clean up. Their new hard plastic kits are a dream...but they seem few and far between.
Wyrd changed their entire range over to hard plastic and I think it generally well received.
I dunno....I love the art work but having looked at the KS it isn't grabbing me enough to back it - I have a limited gaming budget at the moment. The prices are a little higher than I was expecting for PVC but the models are preassembled...surely that negates the cheaper material?
FWIW, Steamforge just released their 2P starter in the material with 12 figures (14 if you REALLY want to include the ball) for $70. That's quite a bit more per model. Might be overcharging or it might be that quality PVC costs more. No real way to tell at this point, though the GB set does have more unique sculpts which is generally more important than number of models.
.Mikes. wrote: Does anyone have a link to explain the pros and cons of PVC models?
The material shrinks as it cools, so it tends to produce softer details and if you're not aware of this when you create the render, you're quite likely to have detail mush together and get lost completely. On the pro side, the molds themselves are a lot closer to how metal molds work in regards to undercuts, letting you make parts that don't have to be strictly 2D. If you've worked with any trench coats or billowing capes you've probably seen this in action. These kinds of things are kind of a nightmare in HIPs in my experience.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/15 07:10:10
I like the hordes a lot! But PVC, pre-built and duplicate sculpts kind of ruin it for me... Yeah, yeah PVC got better, but I won't buy it, until I hold a miniature in my hand. The fact they use renders instead of miniatures in so many showcases is sad.
Haven't played enough of malifaux yet to need ToS really So I might join in the fun, when the game hits retail.
100$ seems pretty standard or very close to it, IMHO, so I don't see the price as an atrocious one. X-wing is as is/more expensive, pre-painted and very hard to customize, but people don't find it a rip-off..
I think the other side minis look great and I'm sure it'll be a cool game but it feels a little pricy to me right now. Maybe in the end it will be better deal. I'll probably jump in once I get my xmas bonus though.
One thing I really like are the 3-model display bases/movement tray thingies. I think I may have to steal that idea one day...
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: I like the hordes a lot! But PVC, pre-built and duplicate sculpts kind of ruin it for me... Yeah, yeah PVC got better, but I won't buy it, until I hold a miniature in my hand. The fact they use renders instead of miniatures in so many showcases is sad.
Haven't played enough of malifaux yet to need ToS really So I might join in the fun, when the game hits retail.
100$ seems pretty standard or very close to it, IMHO, so I don't see the price as an atrocious one. X-wing is as is/more expensive, pre-painted and very hard to customize, but people don't find it a rip-off..
Because its pre painted. Its far more attractive to the average consumer to buy a game with miniatures where you A don't use a tape measurer, and B don't have to built or paint a single thing. So yes their prices are good.
100$ standard is more like 100$ standard for TWO players in todays market. That's what the common buy in for a minis game is. If this game had a 2 player starter for 100$ they would already have my money. It being a 200$ starter for 2 players (and again at Christmas time is super stupid of them) is not worth it.
All of their prices listed I can get when it hits retail. 125$ retail price = 100$ price at miniature market and the war store. Me backing this gives me hardly a bonus. Soft cover to hard cover? I prefer soft cover actually.
I will play it at next years Gen Con, and I may like it, but no way still am I backing this unless they give more free squads to drive the cost per mini down.
(And PVC for detailed stuff like this sucks)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/15 14:00:45
.Mikes. wrote: I'm honestly wondering why people don't think this KS isn't good value. As it stands $100US will net you 28 infantry minis, which work out at less than $4 a figure before you factor in getting a hardbook rulebook, fate deck and counters to boot.
Allegiance box is $125, titan is $90, rule book is $60. Total value is $275 for $160, roughly 42% off, better than you'll get online, which seems to cap around 30%.
I appreciate the cost breakdown. At first blush I was really turned off by the buy-in ... but I suppose the asking prices make more sense than I was giving them credit for.
The real question is whether the PVC figures are worth that, or if saving an extra 10% a year+ in advance is worth it.
Aye. For me it's a combination of concerns over the material, little desire to play another army-scale game (or another mini game in general) right now, and burnout from a year of going heavy on KS miniature campaigns.
All that said, TOS has more of my interest than MFX currently does (which I've been playing for going on two years now), with the fewer named characters and larger-scale conflict (even if that's a double-edged sword when it comes to buying/painting things ). Ultimately I think I'll sit the KS out, focus on KOW until TOS hits the shelves, then throw cash at the LGS once the game/minis have been vetted
Looking at it more, I guess a big rulebook + 19 minis isn't bad for a $99 pledge, but you don't get any freebies with that level. So you add in a titan model for $61 more to get bonus items? Seems kinda high but I guess that's to cover the freebies. And then $300 to get 2 starters, 2 titans and 2 rulebooks seems kinda silly. I would have liked to see a 2 player starter pledge.. 1 rulebook & 2 starter / allegiance boxes.
Also kinda on the fence cuz I was looking forward to Runewars from Fantasy Flight.. don't think I can invest in 2 different big army games right now and I was saving for that one.
(Burning guys get less because I assume the models they have in one unit are bigger and so 2 to a base?)
Even so I do agree the price is offputting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/15 15:58:57
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
The freebies/ stretches should be enticing though. They aren't. 25k goals for things that are going to be done anyways (like the online cards) aren't all that substantial of goals.
And the tangible rewards so far- a shirt? A patch? Yet another fate deck?
I'd like to see a few new models added to each faction at least.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
& 
ton of minis for a solid price. Way cheaper then this.
). Ultimately I think I'll sit the 