Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lords (320)
Supreme Sorceress
Lore of Dark Magic
Level 4
Dark Pegasus
Cloak of Twilight
320

Heroes (495)
Master (Black Guard)
BSB
Heavy Armour
Sea Dragon Cloak
Enchanted Shield
Dawnstone
Sword of Might
155

Sorceress (Darkshards)
Lore of Beasts
Dispel scroll
105

Lokhir Fellheart (Corsairs)
xxx

Core (630)
30 Corsairs
AHW
Full command
360

20 Darkshards
Musician
Standard bearer
Banner of Eternal Flame
270

Special (610)
30 Black Guard
Full command
Standard of Discipline
495

Cold One Chariot
xxx

Rare (445)
Kharibdyss
xxx

Kharibdyss
xxx

5 Doomfire Warlocks
xxx


The idea behind this list is to form an unbreakable (no pun intended) wall that has HUGE staying power. With Ld10 Stubborn Black Guard and Lokhir almost always getting me Unbreakable (if I pick my fights correctly), I won't ever have to worry about my anvils breaking. I feel like I could even comfortably have both units 10 wide to maximize their presence. That leaves my Lvl 4 Sorc and Doomfire Warlocks to blow whatever they want up, my chariot and Kharibdii to set-up flank charges and my Beast Sorc to buff my Corsairs or Black Guard, potentially making them a combat unit.

The Darkshards are basically my anti-chaff unit as well as a bunker. I understand Dreadspears would be cheaper, but they would accomplish nothing whereas my Darkshards actually have presence.

Anyways, thoughts?

Why don't you go for kouran and get permanent unbreakable black guard?

I think you're confused here.

Yes, Black Guard and Corsairs can be made Ld10 Stubborn/Unbreakable, but you can have similar units be similarly immune to fleeing, for far cheaper. Black Guard and, to a lesser extent, Corsairs, should be killing stuff in combat. They're very expensive anvils and, in the case of Black Guard, are bad ones. Black Guard are one of the least resilient units in the book, they need to kill stuff before it kills them.

30 Bleakswords deployed 5x6 (you could go more ranks if you wanted too), are very likely to be steadfast, i.e. Stubborn. Stick a Supreme Sorceress in a bunker of Darkshards with the Banner of Discipline behind the lines for a Ld10 bubble. Stick a BSB somewhere nearby. That is a lot cheaper than your BG/Corsair "anvils" and is more durable. A 5+/6++ trumps a 5+ or a 4+ any day. It will also leave you more points to get more "hammers", a small "detachment" of Black Guard that swings round and hits the opponent in the flank, for example.

You need to understand the roles of the various units if you're going to get anywhere. I'm not saying a unit of 30 Corsairs or 30 Black Guard is bad, I'm just saying such a unit shouldn't be used in that way. Why buy a machine gun, and use it as a shield?

I wonder if Morathi would be better than your Sorceress particularly if you're going Dark.

BsB and Scroll caddy are perfect.

Kharibdyss in pairs is good and Warlocks are good.

You talk about anvils but they just aren't really. Corsairs are fairly tough for DE but chucking lokhir into challenges both wastes and risks him. A fleetmaster is cheaper and can do the same job but with 3 wounds.

Blackguard are good with Wyssans mediocre without it and not an anvil in either case. They need the Razorstandard more than the discipline. Ld9 with a reroll is good enough (1:36 chance to fail) if you want Ld10 get it elsewhere (i.e. Morathi mentioned again).

I don't really see the point on the flame banner on the crossbows when they are your only shooting.

I feel like you guys are missing the point.

Lokhir doesn't need to be in a challenge to gain Unbreakable; just deploy him in a corner and use Daring Leap to pick-off unit champs.

I'm considering Morathi but would have to jumble points around. I do agree that she would make a nice fit.

The Corsairs and Black Guard are nothing more than resilient bodies. I could lose combat after combat and not care, as they're not going anywhere. I'm paying 855 points to control combat; I think that's an okay price.

Adding to that, both those blocks need nothing in the way of babysitting; I could probably get by without even having a BSB, but I like the insurance. Bleakswords need a General bubble, invalidating my Pegasus Sorc. The Corsairs and Black Guard need absolutely no baby-sitting.

The Flaming Banner on the Darkshards is literally just there to hit my min Core. It might come in handy against things like A-boms, but it's not really negatively impacting my army.

Lastly, I really don't appreciate the condescending attitude "The Shadow". If you're going to post criticism, ease-up with the inflated ego.

Just to reiterate, I'm throwing the lives of my Corsairs and Black Guard heedlessly at the opponent as they need absolutely no baby-sitting and won't ever break. The entire army is centered around neglecting those 2 units. If you're going to post comments, please keep that in mind.

 The Shadow wrote:

30 Bleakswords deployed 5x6 (you could go more ranks if you wanted too), are very likely to be steadfast, i.e. Stubborn. Stick a Supreme Sorceress in a bunker of Darkshards with the Banner of Discipline behind the lines for a Ld10 bubble. Stick a BSB somewhere nearby. That is a lot cheaper than your BG/Corsair "anvils" and is more durable. A 5+/6++ trumps a 5+ or a 4+ any day.

5+/Parry is often worse than 4+.

Odds of Saving:
Strength 1 to Strength 3
Corsairs save 50% (4+)
Bleak Swords save 45% (5+ followed by 6+)
S4
Corsairs save 33%
Bleakswords save 30% (6+/6+)
S5
Corsairs and Bleakswords both save on 6 (16%).

Only vs S6 does bleakswords give you an edge with the parry; but against all strengths; 4+ armor is better against impact hits, stomps, thunderstomps, and breathe weapons.

So, unless you live on planet warrior of chaos, where everyone has great weapons and nothing else, Corsairs are actually best.

-Matt

Laboeuf wrote:I feel like you guys are missing the point.

Lokhir doesn't need to be in a challenge to gain Unbreakable; just deploy him in a corner and use Daring Leap to pick-off unit champs.

I'm considering Morathi but would have to jumble points around. I do agree that she would make a nice fit.

The Corsairs and Black Guard are nothing more than resilient bodies. I could lose combat after combat and not care, as they're not going anywhere. I'm paying 855 points to control combat; I think that's an okay price.

Adding to that, both those blocks need nothing in the way of babysitting; I could probably get by without even having a BSB, but I like the insurance. Bleakswords need a General bubble, invalidating my Pegasus Sorc. The Corsairs and Black Guard need absolutely no baby-sitting.

The Flaming Banner on the Darkshards is literally just there to hit my min Core. It might come in handy against things like A-boms, but it's not really negatively impacting my army.

Lastly, I really don't appreciate the condescending attitude "The Shadow". If you're going to post criticism, ease-up with the inflated ego.

Just to reiterate, I'm throwing the lives of my Corsairs and Black Guard heedlessly at the opponent as they need absolutely no baby-sitting and won't ever break. The entire army is centered around neglecting those 2 units. If you're going to post comments, please keep that in mind.

I'm very surprised, and a little offended, that you find my post contains "inflated ego". Of course, as ever, it wasn't my intention to offend, so I apologise if you were.

Anyway, I understand what you're trying to do with the list and yes, 855 points to control combat is ok, but not when you could do if for cheaper. I take your point about not having the Pegasus Sorc not having to babysit the BG and the Corsairs, but do you need her on a Pegasus? Usually Peg Sorcs have a specific plan, such as being able to get close for Death Snipes. What's your plan? I have a feeling I know what it is, but I'm double checking.

I do see what you're trying to achieve with the list, but I still believe you'd be better off dropping the Black Guard (at least) and perhaps the Corsairs as well and replacing them with cheaper anvils, such as Bleakswords, and then sticking a foot sorceress behind in a unit of Darkshards with the Banner of Discipline. It nets you the same result. Yes, your sorceress can't fly around anymore, but you've saved a whole load of points which could be used for units that will have a lot more synergy with your list and style of play.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

30 Bleakswords deployed 5x6 (you could go more ranks if you wanted too), are very likely to be steadfast, i.e. Stubborn. Stick a Supreme Sorceress in a bunker of Darkshards with the Banner of Discipline behind the lines for a Ld10 bubble. Stick a BSB somewhere nearby. That is a lot cheaper than your BG/Corsair "anvils" and is more durable. A 5+/6++ trumps a 5+ or a 4+ any day.

5+/Parry is often worse than 4+.

Point taken, bad mental maths on my part.

Still, my point still stands. From my calculations, against S3 shots, Bleakswords will lose one man extra for every twenty lost. And the ratio tilts in the Darkshards' favour as the strength rises. Bearing in mind that Laboeuf's Corsairs have AHWs and hence are two points dearer, the Bleakswords can afford to lose a lot more guys than the Corsairs. Bleakswords still win in this scenario.

 The Shadow wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

30 Bleakswords deployed 5x6 (you could go more ranks if you wanted too), are very likely to be steadfast, i.e. Stubborn. Stick a Supreme Sorceress in a bunker of Darkshards with the Banner of Discipline behind the lines for a Ld10 bubble. Stick a BSB somewhere nearby. That is a lot cheaper than your BG/Corsair "anvils" and is more durable. A 5+/6++ trumps a 5+ or a 4+ any day.

5+/Parry is often worse than 4+.

Point taken, bad mental maths on my part.

Still, my point still stands. From my calculations, against S3 shots, Bleakswords will lose one man extra for every twenty lost. And the ratio tilts in the Darkshards' favour as the strength rises. Bearing in mind that Laboeuf's Corsairs have AHWs and hence are two points dearer, the Bleakswords can afford to lose a lot more guys than the Corsairs. Bleakswords still win in this scenario.

I'd run corsairs without the extra hand weapon. 2 points per model on a whole unit isn't worth 5 S3 attacks in a bus.
Bleaks lose almost every match up, especially vs monstrous infantry/cav.
Take ogres for example:
4 wide, 2 deep.
4 S4 impact hits (no parry), 24 S4 attacks, and 4 S4 stomps (no parry).
You're losing 10 bleaks to 8.88 Corsairs.
Both units cost the same, both units have the same offense, but the Corsairs die slower.

Math shows that 5+/6++ is worse than 4+.
Then when you factor in stomps, impacts, breath and attacks from the flanks/rear, shooting, and magic, you see that Bleakswords are pretty useless.
The key is, don't upgrade a bunker; run corsairs at 9 points without either upgrade.

-Matt

Yes, when the units are the same points value, I've admitted my mathematical mistake in that, in fact, a 4+ is marginally better. And, on the rare occasion you do fight something with stomp and/or impact hits, then they are significantly better.

My point here is that Laboeuf is paying too much for the quality of bunker which he has. Dropping the AHWs on the Corsairs would, then, solve the problem.

What is the hammer in this anvil list by the way? I know the usual hammer is executioners, but since I don't see any, I'm not sure what the hammer is... or if there is one.

Seems like 3 blocks of infantry, 2 monsters, a flying sorceress, a random chariot, and some warlocks. What were you going to use against DPs or other big scary monsters? I think there's too much anvil and not enough hammer, but that could just be me.

 Matt1785 wrote:
What is the hammer in this anvil list by the way? I know the usual hammer is executioners, but since I don't see any, I'm not sure what the hammer is... or if there is one.

Argh, another Matt!

But yes, this is partly my point. Getting cheaper anvils would allow more points to be spent on such units, which would give the list much more synergy.

 The Shadow wrote:
Yes, when the units are the same points value, I've admitted my mathematical mistake in that, in fact, a 4+ is marginally better. And, on the rare occasion you do fight something with stomp and/or impact hits, then they are significantly better.

My point here is that Laboeuf is paying too much for the quality of bunker which he has. Dropping the AHWs on the Corsairs would, then, solve the problem.

But it's not just stomp and impact hits.
It's also breath weapon, attacks from the flank or rear, spells and shooting. It's not a small fraction of how models die; it's a pretty big
You really don't have a reason to ever take bleakswords.

-Matt

I know, I know. I've admitted that throughout this thread that I've accidentaly overvalued parry. And Ive actually realised how useful Corsairs really are too! The point remains though, you shouldn't be spending 11+ ppm on an anvil when you can just as easily spend 9 for an equally strong one.

You really don't have a reason to ever take bleakswords

This would be true if you were not forced to take a 2 point upgrade on Corsairs. So they are always 11 ppm you just choose whether its AHW or Xbows.

I agree the list needs different Anvils. You can put Lokhir into any unit not just Corsairs. BG are stubborn and won't run but there are plenty of units that can wipe them in 2 rounds of combat. For instance 5 Mournfang means 8 dead to impact hits. 33 attacks back 29 hits 15 wounds 4 wounds done. Ogres kill 3, Mournfang another 7 with another 3 killed by stomps. You hold but have 9 models left. That's rounding in your favour and not even assuming Dragonhide Banner which should mean another 4 dead.

Yes you can hold but anywhere near as well as other armies can achieve for a fraction of the points. For instance Empire detachments. Plus as people have stated your hammers appear to be missing.

I was going to mention Mournfangs with the D-Hide banner, which is an auto-take in Ogre lists, but I think it has been stated that they'd already suffer against Ogres.

Don't you think that MOST MCs would be rough on this list? Dragonhide is a crazy advantage with the re-roll 1's but I think most MCs would be happy to charge either anvil... (Although the Corsairs more-so.)

As for the hammer, I thought it didn't have one, but I figure that the Black Guard COULD be one with a Wyssans under them, but that's situational. May have to re-work a few things... and what is the chariot for? It seems out of place to me, but I might just be nuts.