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If I need a 5+ for poison but need a 6 to hit then what would happen?
Would the auto wound still happen on a 6 or 5?

The roll of 5 wound still auto-wound but as it also missed it wouldn't matter.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The roll of 5 wound still auto-wound but as it also missed it wouldn't matter.

Where does it say that though?
Doesn't it just add to the wound pool skipping over the roll to hit?

 Makutsu wrote:
If I need a 5+ for poison but need a 6 to hit then what would happen?
Would the auto wound still happen on a 6 or 5?

The rule itself says if you need a 7 to hit and poison needs a 6, you can't poison. I.e., if your to-hit requirement is > your poison requirement. It doesn't list every thing because you can conceivably poison on 1/2/3/4/5/6. But no, clearly poison does not auto hit or bypass hits because it gives a rule of it requiring you to do so. You can need up to a 9 to hit someone. Like moving at long range behind hard cover multishot, etc etc. And if you simply poisoned on a 5+ that would be extraordinarily powerful.

The RAW argument though, is that you are only told it doesn't work when you need 7+ to hit.
It seems that Poison bypasses the to hit table for results of 6 or less.

Poison is auto wound, cant wound if you didn't hit, 5s are a moot point if you need 6s to hit.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
If I need a 5+ for poison but need a 6 to hit then what would happen?
Would the auto wound still happen on a 6 or 5?

The rule itself says if you need a 7 to hit and poison needs a 6, you can't poison. I.e., if your to-hit requirement is > your poison requirement. It doesn't list every thing because you can conceivably poison on 1/2/3/4/5/6. But no, clearly poison does not auto hit or bypass hits because it gives a rule of it requiring you to do so. You can need up to a 9 to hit someone. Like moving at long range behind hard cover multishot, etc etc. And if you simply poisoned on a 5+ that would be extraordinarily powerful.

Ah ok, rereading the rule now makes more sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks!

 Leith wrote:
Poison is auto wound, cant wound if you didn't hit, 5s are a moot point if you need 6s to hit.

The two halfs of your statement are contradictory.
Poison is auto wound, it does not generate hits. This means that you could not use charmed shield on poison, since it doesn't hit.
Since poison doesn't cause a hit, we have no rule to say that 5+ poison doesn't wound when a 6 would have been needed to hit.

Here we go again..
How are we assuming that poison does not hit?

Poison hits just fine. It just forgoes the roll to wound.


Bad wording on the GW editors does not allow you to ignore both common sense and decency on the table.

Niteware wrote:

 Leith wrote:
Poison is auto wound, cant wound if you didn't hit, 5s are a moot point if you need 6s to hit.

The two halfs of your statement are contradictory.
Poison is auto wound, it does not generate hits. This means that you could not use charmed shield on poison, since it doesn't hit.
Since poison doesn't cause a hit, we have no rule to say that 5+ poison doesn't wound when a 6 would have been needed to hit.

I think he was saying auto wound in that you don't roll on the To Wound table. That's the only thing it bypasses.

No, poison doesn't cause a hit, but there is fairly clear indication it requires a hit. It says if attacks hit automatically, you cannot poison. That's far more stringent. And it says if you need a 7 to hit shooting, you cannot poison. CANNOT. That means if your to-poison is 1+ and you need a 7, you can't poison at all, even if you ultimately hit.

Now, you can take that as it only applying to the insanely narrow and literal scope of 7+ to hit. And therefore if you needed an 8 or 9+ to hit, then you could still poison if your rolled a 6, even though you didn't hit--or as the OP said, 5+ to poison and 6+ to hit and rolling a 5. But I think it's clear that you have to roll to hit (per the no auto hits) and that roll to hit has to be <= your roll to poison (per the no 7+ on a 6+ poison).

Basically, it would make goblins or any O&G shooters (like bolt throwers) and all Skinks gods. Because what you're saying is they not only hit but wound on a 6+ under any circumstances. Move, multishot, behind hard cover, long range...doesn't matter. As long as it's not 10+ which the BRB says is impossible. That's like the TK arrows of asp. O&G could take spider banner and get +1 from magic and hit and wound anything at 5+. Nothing is going to stand up long to hordes of that can volley fire. 60 goblins could put out 13.2 automatic wounds at 18". I don't think this is intended.

The fact that the attack automatically wounds still doesn't chance the fact it missed.

If I attack with a weapon that has a special rule that it automatically wounds(such as a Runefang) I still must actually hit with the attack. The same applies to conditional automatic wounds.

This conversation is starting to go along the lines of the Killing Blow vs Ethereal.

In that discussion, it was brought up the fact that it is possible to generate effects that result in a Killing Blow on a roll of 5+ even though the model in question actually needed a 6+ to wound. In that argument, it was stated that the KB effect doesn't need "to wound," it just needs the correct roll. In that discussion, most came to the conclusion that the KB effect bypassed entirely the "to wound" process.

There are similarities in the two discussions.

 Makutsu wrote:
If I need a 5+ for poison but need a 6 to hit then what would happen?
Would the auto wound still happen on a 6 or 5?

From the FAQ

Q: Do Poisoned Attacks that wound automatically on a To Hit roll
of 5+ or better still need to hit to cause a Wound?(p73)
A: Yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:

Poison is auto wound, it does not generate hits. This means that you could not use charmed shield on poison, since it doesn't hit.
Since poison doesn't cause a hit, we have no rule to say that 5+ poison doesn't wound when a 6 would have been needed to hit.

Poison attacks do generate hits. See FAQ quoted above.

Saldiven wrote:
This conversation is starting to go along the lines of the Killing Blow vs Ethereal.

In that discussion, it was brought up the fact that it is possible to generate effects that result in a Killing Blow on a roll of 5+ even though the model in question actually needed a 6+ to wound. In that argument, it was stated that the KB effect doesn't need "to wound," it just needs the correct roll. In that discussion, most came to the conclusion that the KB effect bypassed entirely the "to wound" process.

There are similarities in the two discussions.

It was brought up that way and I thought it was wrong along with a few others.
The new FAQ for poison shows you need to hit.(edit) It is after all your roll 'to hit'
If they get around to it I'm confident we will find you will not bypass the wound for KB.

Saldiven wrote:
This conversation is starting to go along the lines of the Killing Blow vs Ethereal.

Not really.

Poison is still wounding. KB doesn't wound. It jumps into its special rule and never leaves. It tells you exactly what to do. You take a ward save if you have one and nothing more. Poison just says you wound. Which basically means you have successfully rolled to-wound on the table regardless of S->T. And then you take one wound and get whatever saves are normal. KB avoids the to-wound table completely and the results of it (you don't get normal saves) and then slays. Poison also states if you need a 7+ (i.e., greater than your chance to poison) then you can't poison. KB doesn't say that. The BRB also has a clause that says if your shooting attacks are impossible TO HIT, they are lost. There is no impossible TO HIT CC attack--not even Ethereal. Ethereal is merely impossible to wound without magic. Poison obviously wouldn't work on Ethereal for that very reason, because all it's doing is wounding and Ethereal can't be wounded 'cept by magic and Poison can't be on magic weapons (with some exceptions), however, you could still hit with a non-magic poison weapon on an Ethereal model, it just wouldn't do anything--unless you have something else that triggers off hits or the target has something that triggers off hits, like Charmed Shield.

Oddly, I Plaguebearers could poison ethereal. The army book > BRB and the magic plaguesword has poison. And if they had a Herald, they could poison on a 5+. But if they needed a 6+ to hit, it still wouldn't auto-wound on a 5.

No matter how super duper poison poison darts are, you generally need to actually touch someone with them in some way to infect them. You've got it that skinks can just close their eyes while high on lotus flowers and shoot their blowguns into the ground and it somehow poisons the enemy who are sitting in a castle with anti-blowgun netting all around them.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
This conversation is starting to go along the lines of the Killing Blow vs Ethereal.

Not really.

Poison is still wounding. KB doesn't wound. It jumps into its special rule and never leaves. It tells you exactly what to do. You take a ward save if you have one and nothing more. Poison just says you wound. Which basically means you have successfully rolled to-wound on the table regardless of S->T. And then you take one wound and get whatever saves are normal. KB avoids the to-wound table completely and the results of it (you don't get normal saves) and then slays. Poison also states if you need a 7+ (i.e., greater than your chance to poison) then you can't poison. KB doesn't say that. The BRB also has a clause that says if your shooting attacks are impossible TO HIT, they are lost. There is no impossible TO HIT CC attack--not even Ethereal. Ethereal is merely impossible to wound without magic. Poison obviously wouldn't work on Ethereal for that very reason, because all it's doing is wounding and Ethereal can't be wounded 'cept by magic and Poison can't be on magic weapons (with some exceptions), however, you could still hit with a non-magic poison weapon on an Ethereal model, it just wouldn't do anything--unless you have something else that triggers off hits or the target has something that triggers off hits, like Charmed Shield.

Oddly, I Plaguebearers could poison ethereal. The army book > BRB and the magic plaguesword has poison. And if they had a Herald, they could poison on a 5+. But if they needed a 6+ to hit, it still wouldn't auto-wound on a 5.

No matter how super duper poison poison darts are, you generally need to actually touch someone with them in some way to infect them. You've got it that skinks can just close their eyes while high on lotus flowers and shoot their blowguns into the ground and it somehow poisons the enemy who are sitting in a castle with anti-blowgun netting all around them.

You're missing the point.
poison is to hits as KB is to wounds.
The verbage is almost the same
poison states on a six to hit, KB states on a 6 to wound
poison needs the six and does not work on auto hit, KB needs the six and does not work on auto wound.
KB doesn't need to state 7+ because 6 always wounds
All your text about KB has been stated and is based on your assumed reading. But I think you know that.
We will have to wait for the faq,but odds stear greater in the the wounding KB crowd.
And we have the answer for Poison too.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
If I need a 5+ for poison but need a 6 to hit then what would happen?
Would the auto wound still happen on a 6 or 5?

From the FAQ

Q: Do Poisoned Attacks that wound automatically on a To Hit roll
of 5+ or better still need to hit to cause a Wound?(p73)
A: Yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:

Poison is auto wound, it does not generate hits. This means that you could not use charmed shield on poison, since it doesn't hit.
Since poison doesn't cause a hit, we have no rule to say that 5+ poison doesn't wound when a 6 would have been needed to hit.

Poison attacks do generate hits. See FAQ quoted above.

Thanks Boomer, had forgotten that one. Defintive answer.

I thought it was faq'd somewhere. I looked in O&G and thought I looked in main.

Glad someone had a certain answer to this since ive been holding back on my gutter runners for a while now

You need to hit in order to wound.
Poision just allows you to skip
past the ST vs TO roll.