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Two issues came up in todays game.

1) Tau Supporting Fire rule states "all friendly MODELS with this special rule in units within 6" of the charging unit's target can choose to fire Overwatch as if they were also targets of the charge".
- My interpretation - models within 6" of the charged unit can fire overwatch. - My opponents interpretation - the entire unit gets to fire overwatch because it makes the unit count as a "target of the charge".

2) If a Riptide takes Smart Missile Systems and Early Warning Override, can it fire shots out of Line of Sight? SMS require no line of sight but the Interceptor rule granted by EWO states "a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range AND line of sight."

Any takers?

1) The general consensus is that it's the unit.

2) Interceptor is a BRB thing. SMS is a codex thing; codex trumps BRB. So yes, you can (unless I'm missing a FAQ somewhere).

1. If the unit is within 6" then all friendly models with the rule can fire Overwatch.

 TheKbob wrote:
1) The general consensus is that it's the unit.

Models with the rule in units within 6" means that it's units within 6". Not just the general consensus, the actual rule.

2) Interceptor is a BRB thing. SMS is a codex thing; codex trumps BRB. So yes, you can (unless I'm missing a FAQ somewhere).

No, incorrect. The SMS does not need LoS to fire, but Interceptor absolutely needs LoS to trigger. Without Interceptor triggering SMS' special rule does nothing.

rigeld2 wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
1) The general consensus is that it's the unit.

Models with the rule in units within 6" means that it's units within 6". Not just the general consensus, the actual rule.

2) Interceptor is a BRB thing. SMS is a codex thing; codex trumps BRB. So yes, you can (unless I'm missing a FAQ somewhere).

No, incorrect. The SMS does not need LoS to fire, but Interceptor absolutely needs LoS to trigger. Without Interceptor triggering SMS' special rule does nothing.

I'd argue otherwise on the LOS and SMS, but it's one of the many things that needs a FAQ.

you need los to use interceptor,

you need interceptor to fire smart missles in your opponents turn when they arrive,

you dont need LOS to fire smart missles.


all the above are true,

first step requires LOS to even use interceptor in the first place, that the weapons dont need los to fire is irrelevent to interceptor needing LOS to activate

Explain how it gives the entire unit overwatch, the rule says models in units within 6" and not units with 6" get it.

 TheKbob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
1) The general consensus is that it's the unit.

Models with the rule in units within 6" means that it's units within 6". Not just the general consensus, the actual rule.

2) Interceptor is a BRB thing. SMS is a codex thing; codex trumps BRB. So yes, you can (unless I'm missing a FAQ somewhere).

No, incorrect. The SMS does not need LoS to fire, but Interceptor absolutely needs LoS to trigger. Without Interceptor triggering SMS' special rule does nothing.

I'd argue otherwise on the LOS and SMS, but it's one of the many things that needs a FAQ.

Please cite permission to ignore the requirement for LoS on interceptor. SMS ignores LoS for firing, but there's a step prior to firing that needs LoS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blighty wrote:
Explain how it gives the entire unit overwatch, the rule says models in units within 6" and not units with 6" get it.

Fire warrior squad A is 5" away from Fire warrior squad B.
Bob (a member of squad A) is 12" from squad B.
Squad B gets charged.
Bob is a model with Supporting Fire in a unit within 6" of the charging units target.

rigeld2 wrote:

Blighty wrote:
Explain how it gives the entire unit overwatch, the rule says models in units within 6" and not units with 6" get it.

Fire warrior squad A is 5" away from Fire warrior squad B.
Bob (a member of squad A) is 12" from squad B.
Squad B gets charged.
Bob is a model with Supporting Fire in a unit within 6" of the charging units target.

As has been said, if the unit is within 6", then all models in that unit with SF rule get to shoot. It's quite clearly written.
The PURPOSE of writing it that way is so that an attached Eldar IC (for example) does NOT get to shoot OW when the Tau do.

Blighty wrote:
Explain how it gives the entire unit overwatch, the rule says models in units within 6" and not units with 6" get it.

{all friendly MODELS with this special rule} {in units within 6" of the charging unit's target} {can choose to fire Overwatch as if they were also targets of the charge}

That's how I parse it, does this match the consensus?

 Quanar wrote:
{all friendly MODELS with this special rule} {in units within 6" of the charging unit's target} {can choose to fire Overwatch as if they were also targets of the charge}

That's how I parse it, does this match the consensus?

That's how I read it, too. The competing notion that the "in units" should be a standalone adjective is patently ridiculous. "Oh, I can't fire this IC because he's not in a unit. Wait, he's in his own unit. Nevermind."

It does mean that if a Tau IC is in a unit of Space Marines, and the Space Marines are in 6 inches of a unit of Tau that is being charged then the Tau IC (model with the rule in the unit within 6 inches of the unit being charged) can fire overwatch while the rest of the unit (models without the rule) just sits and watches.

And then the marines who got charged look at them like "Seriously guys? the tau helps us and you just stand there!?"

As I said previously, SMS can be fired out of the targets LOS, thus overriding the USR. It's as simple as that. Codex trumps BRB. And it needs a FAQ for full clarity as I can see it the other way, but as it stands, and what makes the most sense, is that the SMS fires.

It must be able to fire as then they would NEVER be able to fire per the BRB; Line of Sight (pg12):

To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have LoS (see page 8) to at least one model in the target unit. If no models have LoS then a different target must be chosen.

So per the BRB, you must have LOS strictly to target an enemy with shots. If you declare that SMS cannot intercept without LOS then that drifts back to Pg 12 and therefor could never fire.

Also, been argued to death:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/536766.page

Ask your opponents, but realistically, it would shoot as if you imposed a limit in intercept, the same limit could then be imposed on normal shooting. Happyjew gave it best that "There aren't any rules for how to allocate wounds/damage results for models out of LoS, thus SMS shouldn't be able to any damage period." Use some common sense... if a weapon ignores LoS, it does so ALWAYS.

Yes, the weapon absolutely ignores LoS always. That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that the Interceptor SR requires LoS and nothing conflicts with that.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, the weapon absolutely ignores LoS always. That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that the Interceptor SR requires LoS and nothing conflicts with that.

Normal shooting requires LoS too, per Pg 12. If Interceptor doesn't work like normal shooting, then you get into a whole different can of worms. Read the thread I posted. It needs a FAQ, straight up. But common sense dictates the weapons can fire.

 TheKbob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, the weapon absolutely ignores LoS always. That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that the Interceptor SR requires LoS and nothing conflicts with that.

Normal shooting requires LoS too, per Pg 12. If Interceptor doesn't work like normal shooting, then you get into a whole different can of worms. Read the thread I posted. It needs a FAQ, straight up. But common sense dictates the weapons can fire.

No, you're not understanding. Before you can even make an Interceptor shooting attack, what requirements have to be met?

rigeld2 wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, the weapon absolutely ignores LoS always. That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that the Interceptor SR requires LoS and nothing conflicts with that.

Normal shooting requires LoS too, per Pg 12. If Interceptor doesn't work like normal shooting, then you get into a whole different can of worms. Read the thread I posted. It needs a FAQ, straight up. But common sense dictates the weapons can fire.

No, you're not understanding. Before you can even make an Interceptor shooting attack, what requirements have to be met?

I am aware. Please read the thread I linked.

You have to be in range and LOS just like the shooting rules. Therefore SMS can NEVER shoot by your logic. I prefer the logic that says they can... as it's the RAI and common sense approach.

Per EWO, all weapons on said model of Interceptor. Interceptor says the weapon may be fired within in range and LOS. SMS say they can fire at a target outside of LOS. Nothing in interceptor stops SMS from firing as they ignore restrictions for LOS. By implying otherwise, then per Pg. 12, SMS would never fire at anything outside of LOS by the extension of the faulty logic. Simply it's both or neither, not one or the other. If you wish to go down that rabbit hole, then how do you allocate said wounds outside of LOS? There aren't rules for that.

Age old argument of common sense >>> over trying to be a RAW dog.

 TheKbob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, the weapon absolutely ignores LoS always. That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that the Interceptor SR requires LoS and nothing conflicts with that.

Normal shooting requires LoS too, per Pg 12. If Interceptor doesn't work like normal shooting, then you get into a whole different can of worms. Read the thread I posted. It needs a FAQ, straight up. But common sense dictates the weapons can fire.

No, you're not understanding. Before you can even make an Interceptor shooting attack, what requirements have to be met?

I am aware. Please read the thread I linked.

You have to be in range and LOS just like the shooting rules. Therefore SMS can NEVER shoot by your logic. I prefer the logic that says they can... as it's the RAI and common sense approach.

Per EWO, all weapons on said model of Interceptor. Interceptor says the weapon may be fired within in range and LOS. SMS say they can fire at a target outside of LOS. Nothing in interceptor stops SMS from firing as they ignore restrictions for LOS. By implying otherwise, then per Pg. 12, SMS would never fire at anything outside of LOS by the extension of the faulty logic. Simply it's both or neither, not one or the other. If you wish to go down that rabbit hole, then how do you allocate said wounds outside of LOS? There aren't rules for that.

Age old argument of common sense >>> over trying to be a RAW dog.

Yup...

Another fun example is trying to figure out how to RAW allocate wounds with SMS when the unit is out of Line of Sight. RAW, SMS cant cause wounds if the unit is out of sight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hive Guard the same deal

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Yup...

Another fun example is trying to figure out how to RAW allocate wounds with SMS when the unit is out of Line of Sight. RAW, SMS cant cause wounds if the unit is out of sight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hive Guard the same deal

Don't forget, that vehicles get cover saves because ignores cover only works for wounds per RAW. Ask how the UK GT went when they ruled that as law and the winning players brought a crap ton of Wave Serpents behind a Skyshield for a 3+ cover save all game long.

Sounds fun!

 TheKbob wrote:
I am aware. Please read the thread I linked.

You have to be in range and LOS just like the shooting rules. Therefore SMS can NEVER shoot by your logic. I prefer the logic that says they can... as it's the RAI and common sense approach.

Obviously you are not aware.
Steps to fire Interceptor:
Determine if a model arrived in range and LoS.
Resolve shooting attack.

You're skipping straight to step two. You have no basis for doing so. Step 2 is where SMS ignores LoS.
Please don't put words in my mouth - SMS works fine as a shooting attack.

Age old argument of common sense >>> over trying to be a RAW dog.

Wow - do you have to jump straight to insults? There's nothing "common sense" about ignoring the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Another fun example is trying to figure out how to RAW allocate wounds with SMS when the unit is out of Line of Sight. RAW, SMS cant cause wounds if the unit is out of sight.

Which is stupid, no one plays that way (that I know of) and is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

It's not ignoring the rules. Per Page 12, which I quoted, you must both have range and LOS to fire. I have the book open. Looking at it. So what makes Interceptor, which says the exact same thing, any difference? Page 12 says you MUST have line of site or choose another target. SMS say you can target outside of LOS. So when you check for interceptor you skip the LOS of properties as it's not necessary. You override that with a codex rule for that weapon which has Interceptor.

And no, commenting on how there aren't rules to allocate wounds out of LOS is relevant. It's to show inane suggesting SMS can't fire interceptor at targets not in LOS. I don't play Tau and I play armies that would fear Intercepting SMS. It'd suck. But to suggest otherwise would be mean you could never fire SMS at units outside of LOS. Period.

Interceptor is not worded like page 12. Before you can pick a target for Interceptor (which is where the ignores LoS for SMS comes in) you must have LoS to even be allowed to make the attack.

No - I'm not suggesting SMS can never fire outside LoS. Please stop saying that I am. Your stubborn refusal to understand my argument doesn't give you the right to present straw man arguments.

 TheKbob wrote:
It's not ignoring the rules. Per Page 12, which I quoted, you must both have range and LOS to fire. I have the book open. Looking at it. So what makes Interceptor, which says the exact same thing, any difference? Page 12 says you MUST have line of site or choose another target. SMS say you can target outside of LOS. So when you check for interceptor you skip the LOS of properties as it's not necessary. You override that with a codex rule for that weapon which has Interceptor.

Page 12 has a summary of how shooting in this game works. It has 5 steps:

-Nominate a shooting unit
-choose a target
-roll to hit
-roll to wound
-allocate wounds

In step 2 (choose a target) is included a rule "line of sight". THIS rule in its entirety is what the SMS rule overrides, because Codex > BRB.


However, to be allowed to perform this Shooting Sequence, you must have a permission for it. Interceptor gives you a permission, with certain conditions. One of the conditions is that enemy has arrived within LOS. This has nothing to do with SMS.

To check that if enemy has arrived within LOS, you must check models perspective, and if you can see the enemy, only then are you given permission to fire. Only when actually firing, does the SMS special rule come available.

SMS says that you can ignore LOS when firing. It does NOT say you can ignore LOS when checking permission to use interceptor special rule.

As above.

You in essence check LOS twice when making an interceptor shooting attack - once to see if you can make the attack at all, and then the (utterly redundant) check when you come to fire the weapon

The Ignores LOS rule only overrides the normally-redundant second check; however to actually get to that part you have to check LOS, and here you have no rule that overrides the LOS requirement - meaning you cannot fire.

Utterly consistent.

If you do not have anything relevant to the discussion at hand then there is no need to post in this thread.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And then the marines who got charged look at them like "Seriously guys? the tau helps us and you just stand there!?"

Yup, Tau firewarriors are more tactically aware than tactical marines.

Being within 6 inches makes the whole squad elligible for the action much like "units within 12 inches can reroll morale tests" and the like. If one member of the unit is within range the unit gets to do the action.

I can see both arguments for Interceptor and LOS. But since the Interceptor rule is applied to the weapon and not the model itself, I could see the check being:
Check 1: Weapon Range
Check 2: Weapon has Line of Sight

Check 2 is overriden because the weapon (the thing that has the special rule) "Ignores line of sight".

If Interceptor applied to the model itself then it would definitely be the other way around.

On non-vehicle units you never check LoS for the weapon so that argument has no merit.

I can maybe see that argument for vehicles, but you're still conflating checks that the rules don't.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As above.

You in essence check LOS twice when making an interceptor shooting attack - once to see if you can make the attack at all, and then the (utterly redundant) check when you come to fire the weapon

The Ignores LOS rule only overrides the normally-redundant second check; however to actually get to that part you have to check LOS, and here you have no rule that overrides the LOS requirement - meaning you cannot fire.

Utterly consistent.

exaclty... what nost, rigel, and myself have said multiple times, which seems to go over peoples heads, is that it does not matter if the WEAPON ignores LOS, as interceptor most certainly does not,

you do in fact check LOS for interceptor, and it is a requirment, and no, there is no conflict with SMS.

you need LOS to intercept something, that is RAW

you do not need LOS to fire certain weapons, like SMS, that is RAW,

to fire your SMS, in the opponents turn, you MUST use the interceptor rule, and need LOS to use that rule to allow your weapons to fire in the opponents turn.

that your guns fire without LOS normally, does not conflict, and does not matter, as you need LOS to fire them VIA interceptor, codex does NOT conflict with BRB, and does not trump it.

that is RAW, and its quite clear,

it does not
"break" anything, and non LOS weapons like barrage/SMS are not broken when firing out of LOS, stop going off topic and strawmanning this with things are are not even related.

so you utilize the interceptor rules,

1:check range
2:check LOS

having filled BOTH those requirements, you are now allowed to shoot a weapon in your opponents turn, following normal shooting rules,
1. check range
2.check los
3.roll to hit
4.ect

all SMS does is allow you to ignore the LOS requirement to fire the weapon, it does not allow you to ignore the requirement for LOS to intercept.

rigeld2 wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
1) The general consensus is that it's the unit.

Models with the rule in units within 6" means that it's units within 6". Not just the general consensus, the actual rule.

2) Interceptor is a BRB thing. SMS is a codex thing; codex trumps BRB. So yes, you can (unless I'm missing a FAQ somewhere).

No, incorrect. The SMS does not need LoS to fire, but Interceptor absolutely needs LoS to trigger. Without Interceptor triggering SMS' special rule does nothing.

This.