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 CrashCanuck wrote:
Except that the Space Popes saves says he gets to just ignore any AP1 attack, so an AP2 D weapon would nuke him, but if it was AP 1 he is safe.

Destroyer weapons explicitly say "don't even try to avoid this wound".

 nutty_nutter wrote:
phantoms IIRC state it is to ignore the hit, if the manta is worded the same it must by precident work the same.

and it will be worded an invul save because there are no other catagories of save it could be.

the stregth value of a shot is moot if the wording is regarding a hit, D weapons ignore saves that are taken after the 'to wound' aspect of shooting, in apoc there are things that work outside the normal flow of a shooting phase, the phantom being one of them as it negates hits and as such needs to roll before damage rolls are made.

wording is key and if the above posters are accurate in the wording that it is a save vs hits as opposed to a standard save then it will ignore D weapons the same way a phantom does.

this is important as the manta I believe can o into skimmer mode to dispatch the small army it carries (unless this has all changed with the new book)

Wait, so since the Manta saves the hits before you roll to glance/pen out of order, dose that mean if you Jink/Hover with the Manta you could also save against normal strength's pens with cover saves also?

example:
Normal strength weapons fire, Manta invul saves against hits before pen/glance, Manta declares jink/moved in hover mode, normal shots pen, Manta cover saves against pens/glances.

That is like giving the Manta a FnP.

No, the manta does not protect agaibst "hits", just it is a normal invulnerable save. This means it operates at the pen / glancing hit stage.

The D weapon ignores your Manta's 4+ invulnerable saves. The rules for D weapons explictely state that Invulnerable saves cannot be taken against them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
However, the rule for the shield (Energy Shield), states that "The Manta's Energy shield confers a 4+ invulnerable save against any hit it receives." pp. 126 in the FW IA Apoc book.

OK, and Destroyer weapons do not allow any saving throws.

In order for the Manta to be protected against Destroyer weapons, it would need to say something along the lines of "The Manta's Energy shield confers a 4+ invulnerable save against any hit it receives, including those from Destroyer weapons."

Or the holofields for the Revenant Titan also work, where it discounts hits rather than making saves against weapons.

D weapons will ignor the mantas save As tgey can not be saved by any means except holofields at the moment(special exception). Plus (If I remember right) the manta can be shot at by any weapon and hit at normal bs not just sky fire.

Skullhammer wrote:
D weapons will ignor the mantas save As tgey can not be saved by any means except holofields at the moment(special exception). Plus (If I remember right) the manta can be shot at by any weapon and hit at normal bs not just sky fire.

It's still immune to blast and template weapons, and there are very few non-blast str. D weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Except that the Space Popes saves says he gets to just ignore any AP1 attack, so an AP2 D weapon would nuke him, but if it was AP 1 he is safe.

He automatically ignore AP1 because he has to roll a 1+. What happens is that he gets to roll a dice against the AP.

 Mywik wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
phantoms IIRC state it is to ignore the hit, if the manta is worded the same it must by precident work the same.

and it will be worded an invul save because there are no other catagories of save it could be.

the stregth value of a shot is moot if the wording is regarding a hit, D weapons ignore saves that are taken after the 'to wound' aspect of shooting, in apoc there are things that work outside the normal flow of a shooting phase, the phantom being one of them as it negates hits and as such needs to roll before damage rolls are made.

wording is key and if the above posters are accurate in the wording that it is a save vs hits as opposed to a standard save then it will ignore D weapons the same way a phantom does.

this is important as the manta I believe can o into skimmer mode to dispatch the small army it carries (unless this has all changed with the new book)

So you use invulnerable saves against perils of the warp too?

um...how is this relevant in any way shape or form?

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
phantoms IIRC state it is to ignore the hit, if the manta is worded the same it must by precident work the same.

and it will be worded an invul save because there are no other catagories of save it could be.

the stregth value of a shot is moot if the wording is regarding a hit, D weapons ignore saves that are taken after the 'to wound' aspect of shooting, in apoc there are things that work outside the normal flow of a shooting phase, the phantom being one of them as it negates hits and as such needs to roll before damage rolls are made.

wording is key and if the above posters are accurate in the wording that it is a save vs hits as opposed to a standard save then it will ignore D weapons the same way a phantom does.

this is important as the manta I believe can o into skimmer mode to dispatch the small army it carries (unless this has all changed with the new book)

So you use invulnerable saves against perils of the warp too?

um...how is this relevant in any way shape or form?

Perils says "no saves of any kind allowed". If you rule to allow the invuln here than you would have to do that with perils too.

Just wanted to show you that "no saves of any kind" applies to invulnerable saves - since perils is the more familiar one.

no it isn't if the wording of that rule said that it was a save vs the 'hit' roll

perils is not the same as the invulnerable save agasint it has no set perameters and as such would revert to default state of comming after a wound which is expressly forbidden.

as others have said that the manta's shield does not say 'to hit' rolls this discussion is more or less over with the holo field being the only way around D weapon nastyness as is written.

the wording of the phrase is the key to tell you what the save is for.

IF it was a roll vs a to hit roll, the S of the weapon would have no bearing as the save is being made agasint the hit roll and not the damage roll, D weapons prevent the use of the save vs the damage they inflict but are not inherrantly able to prevent saves that negate hits.

as an example, if I had a piece or wargear that said, prevent the first 'hit' suffered from a shooting attack in the shooting phase, and the first gun fired was a single shot D weapon, the hit would be negated.

as it stands however this particular save is acting as a normal save, and as such will be negated.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
no it isn't if the wording of that rule said that it was a save vs the 'hit' roll

perils is not the same as the invulnerable save agasint it has no set perameters and as such would revert to default state of comming after a wound which is expressly forbidden..

Is the save in the mantas rule defined as an invulnerable save? please answer yes or no


Are D Weapons ignoring Invulnerable saves? yes or no

 Mywik wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
no it isn't if the wording of that rule said that it was a save vs the 'hit' roll

perils is not the same as the invulnerable save agasint it has no set perameters and as such would revert to default state of comming after a wound which is expressly forbidden..

Is the save in the mantas rule defined as an invulnerable save? please answer yes or no


Are D Weapons ignoring Invulnerable saves? yes or no

this brings to mind a quote of only a sith deals in absoloutes....

again, and I will re-iterat, for you appear ot be missing the point.

the WORDING of HOW to take the save makes the STRENGTH of the weapon MOOT if the wording was to negate a HIT.

negating a roll to hit discounts it before the strength of the weapon would even be looked at, as it happens others with the book have said that it is NOT worded as a save vs the hit but is otherwise treated as a normal save which is discounted.

if you have taken the wrong end of the stick then I appologise for misleading you.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
no it isn't if the wording of that rule said that it was a save vs the 'hit' roll

perils is not the same as the invulnerable save agasint it has no set perameters and as such would revert to default state of comming after a wound which is expressly forbidden..

Is the save in the mantas rule defined as an invulnerable save? please answer yes or no


Are D Weapons ignoring Invulnerable saves? yes or no

this brings to mind a quote of only a sith deals in absoloutes....

again, and I will re-iterat, for you appear ot be missing the point.

the WORDING of HOW to take the save makes the STRENGTH of the weapon MOOT if the wording was to negate a HIT.

negating a roll to hit discounts it before the strength of the weapon would even be looked at, as it happens others with the book have said that it is NOT worded as a save vs the hit but is otherwise treated as a normal save which is discounted.

if you have taken the wrong end of the stick then I appologise for misleading you.

How does a vehicle take an Invulnerable save (which per the Manta Energy Shield wording it is)?

Vehicles use invulnerable saves to ignore Penetrating/Glancing HITS. Meaning that the word "hit" is still perfectly valid and still means that D weapons ignore it.

 nutty_nutter wrote:


negating a roll to hit discounts it before the strength of the weapon would even be looked at, as it happens others with the book have said that it is NOT worded as a save vs the hit but is otherwise treated as a normal save which is discounted.

Okay lets consult the actual rule.
p211 of Imperial Armour volume 3 the taros campaign says:

The manta is equipped with powerful energy shields and counter measures and has a 4+ invulnerable save against all hits

So the rule disproves your assertion that it is not worded as a save. Its specifically defined as an invulnerable save.



The BRB p17 says about invulnerable saves:

Models with wargear or abilities like these are allowed an invulnerable saving throw..

And now to the wording of D Weapons apoc rulebook p.412 says:

These have Strength D. If you hit, roll on the table below. No saving throws of any kind are allowed against hits from Destroyer weapons

Summary:
Ive proven that the Manta has an invulnerable save. Ive also proven that invulnerable saves are saving throws and finally ive proven that these are ignored by D Strength weapons.

Therefor the manta energy shield doesnt work against d-hits. Couldnt be clearer in my eyes.