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My wife has asked me to present her with a list of Christmas demands. Besides a sizeable donation to Oxfam, I am considering FW.

Has anyone experimented with the Chaos Storm Eagle? If so, what are your impressions? The transport capacity is right on for how I play and it's an assault vehicle. I am concerned about the AV12, however, given what happens to my Heldrakes every time I include them in a list.

Am I right to assume units could assault from it the turn it arrives from deep strike? Are there other tactics that could be used to ensure its payload will arrive? Would I be able to bring Helbrutes or Terminators in it, or is it just troops?

 techsoldaten wrote:
Am I right to assume units could assault from it the turn it arrives from deep strike?

Not being a Chaos player I can't answer the rest, but no - you cannot assault out of it when arriving from Reserves.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Stormeagle.pdf

If you want a big transport capacity, get a Spartan Assault tank, which is a bit more expensive on points (but still too cheap for what you actually get for those points), with much better armament and durability.

If you want a big flying gunboat get a Fire Raptor. That way you have a dedicated platform that's not trying to decide between performing two opposing roles.


The issue with the Storm Eagle is that while it's fast in flyer mode and will get what you want to where you want it quickly, the second you enter hover mode to disembark it's going to get blown out of the sky. 200+ points is a big premium to get a unit to one point on the battlefield before it's transport gets wasted.

While the Spartan also puts itself in harms way, you have AV14 and 5 hull points to fall back on. Much more survivable, and much more able to impact a battle when it's not delivering cargo into someones face.

Don't give the storm eagle the ordnance missiles - thats a good way to ruin your shooting cos everything else would have to snap fire.

Multi melta+Twin linked lascannons are the way to go imo.

I think it'll work best as a gunship/late game objective grabber - so I'd stick a min squad in it (so it doesn't hurt so much if it crashes)

I'm using chosen as troops atm, I'm gonna stick 5 of them in there with a couple of plasma guns. Enough to damage what I choose to shoot, not enough to matter if it crashes.
Or I'm going to stick a 10 man squad of cultists in it and not disembark them till turn 5.

I plan on increasing its survivability by taking 2 heldrakes as well - that should take some of the heat off

vs the spartan, I think the storm eagle has much better shooting.

The spartan has 2 twin linked quad lascannons and a heavy bolter. So thats 4 TW lascannon shots and 3 heavy bolter shots(upgradeable to mm) vs the storm eagles 2 twin linked las, 1 multi melta and the 2 st5 ap4 large blasts.
However, the tank is subject to the normal rules for vehicle shooting (stay still and fire everything, move 6" and fire 1 gun etc) whereas the Storm Eagle can fire 4 weapons while it's zooming.
The Spartan does get ceramic hull now so thats all good. The Storm eagle only gets shot on 6's. This helps to mitigate not having POTMS. Edit:Forgot to mention it can evade too.
I think the Storm Eagle gets 4hp so its not shabby in the HP department either.

TLDR - they're both good

Oh my, I was unaware there was a Chaos version of the Spartan assault tank. Are the rules for the Chaos version official?

Considering I am thinking about using the Storm Eagle for troop delivery, the Spartan seems to make a lot more sense. But I am unfamiliar with the rules for what happens to passengers when a vehicle falls from the skies. What actually happens to troops when their flying transport gets blown up?

The rules are in Imperial armour apoc whatever it was - the last one released so they are official

 techsoldaten wrote:
Oh my, I was unaware there was a Chaos version of the Spartan assault tank. Are the rules for the Chaos version official?

Considering I am thinking about using the Storm Eagle for troop delivery, the Spartan seems to make a lot more sense. But I am unfamiliar with the rules for what happens to passengers when a vehicle falls from the skies. What actually happens to troops when their flying transport gets blown up?

The Spartan's rules are linked in it's description.
The official version for chaos is almost exactly that but minus the PotMS rule, and costs 10 pts less.

Here:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Spartan.pdf

Those are the experimental rules for the spartan.

I don't know if there are differences between those and the prinited ones released in the last imperial armour apoc.

EDIT:Found an example difference
The experimental chaos one doesn't get ceramite. The official chaos one does

PredaKhaine wrote:Those are the experimental rules for the spartan.

I don't know if there are differences between those and the prinited ones released in the last imperial armour apoc.

Selym wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Oh my, I was unaware there was a Chaos version of the Spartan assault tank. Are the rules for the Chaos version official?

Considering I am thinking about using the Storm Eagle for troop delivery, the Spartan seems to make a lot more sense. But I am unfamiliar with the rules for what happens to passengers when a vehicle falls from the skies. What actually happens to troops when their flying transport gets blown up?

The Spartan's rules are linked in it's description.
The official version for chaos is almost exactly that but minus the PotMS rule, and costs 10 pts less.

Here:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Spartan.pdf

I just told you...

Read my post again and then tell me
I've edited...

Well then. Just add ceramite for +20 pts as an upgrade.

I just bought 1 recently. Beautiful model.

Important thing is to keep it flying. And maybe use it for late game objective rush.

A flying av12 all side is about the same as av14 on the groun(I didn't do the maths, but that's my experience)

You can very well fit 2 heldrake and 1 stormeagle(fully upgraded) into a 1850 list. I'd say its quite competiitive from the paper. Haven't have the chance to play test it.

As for the transport capacity. Unless you really have a specific role for its cargo(wreck some faces behind enemy line). I'd say don't bother putting anything in there. If you really want to. 20 cultist. (Lol)

In myhumble opinion. You need to have the target saturation to keep it alive. Writea list that works around it.

For my 1850. I have 2 flying prince, 2 maulerfiends. (: more stuff for my opponent to shoot.

Why would you buy a transport flyer if you weren't going to use it to transport anything...

For the guns (mm, 2 x TW las + 2 shots @ st5 ap4 large blast) and the fact it looks really good

Ap0k wrote:
Why would you buy a transport flyer if you weren't going to use it to transport anything...

Late-game capturing. If you play the Heldrakes properly, very little will be able to take a unit of 20 zombies off an objective when it goes down on the last turn (but you'll need Typhus).

 techsoldaten wrote:
. What actually happens to troops when their flying transport gets blown up?

I've only just seen this - pretty much everything bar TH/SS dies when it crashes - its something like a st9 ap2 hit on every man/woman/dog in the plane...

Its why most people put min squads in it.

 PredaKhaine wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
. What actually happens to troops when their flying transport gets blown up?

I've only just seen this - pretty much everything bar TH/SS dies when it crashes - its something like a st9 ap2 hit on every man/woman/dog in the plane...

Its why most people put min squads in it.

And that's why I'd go with the Spartan.

Yeah, I can see how both vehicles would be used.

The Spartan would be for dropping off assault squads mid-game. The Storm Eagle would be used as a flyer, and would drop a small unit towards the end of the game to grab objectives.

This makes perfect sense and gives me the answers I was looking for. Thank you to everyone for their ideas.

 Selym wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
. What actually happens to troops when their flying transport gets blown up?

I've only just seen this - pretty much everything bar TH/SS dies when it crashes - its something like a st9 ap2 hit on every man/woman/dog in the plane...

Its why most people put min squads in it.

And that's why I'd go with the Spartan.

I'd bought my Storm Eagle before the chaos spartan got ceramite, so I'm using what I've got
Without ceramite hull, that tank is a waste of points. Now it's got it, things are different

 PredaKhaine wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
. What actually happens to troops when their flying transport gets blown up?

I've only just seen this - pretty much everything bar TH/SS dies when it crashes - its something like a st9 ap2 hit on every man/woman/dog in the plane...

Its why most people put min squads in it.

And that's why I'd go with the Spartan.

I'd bought my Storm Eagle before the chaos spartan got ceramite, so I'm using what I've got
Without ceramite hull, that tank is a waste of points. Now it's got it, things are different

Oh gods, the rage from those who rely on melta :3

One of my best friends is all excited about his new Salamander army. This just keeps getting better and better.

X-D

Without ceramite hull, that tank is a waste of points.

What.

The spartan has twice the firepower of a normal land raider, more than twice the carry capacity, and about 30-50% more survivability once you factor the extra hull point and ceramite armour into things (since it either comes as standard in the apoc book, or you use the download sheet and pay for it).

All for a mere 60ish points more than a normal land raider.

Even before ceramite armour was added as standard it should have been 350points minimum.


edit - Oops, forgot that the entire wargear section was replaced for the chaos version. Memory made me believe it was similar to the fire raptor which just lost PotMS and gained the ability to take possession.

Ap0k wrote:

Even before ceramite armour was added as standard it should have been 350points minimum.

Eh, only by the CSM codex's reckoning. 305 for the Spartan w/Ceramite seems to be close enough to "balanced".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

Without ceramite hull, that tank is a waste of points.

While I notice this comment, please explain how you came to this conclusion.

A CSM predator's lascannon sponsoons (non twin linked single lascannons, btw) cost 40 pts.

This is a CSM LR +55 pts, +15 TC, +Twin-linked Sponsoon LC, +1 HP...

If you were given the choice of paying 305 for one spartan or 460 for 2 land raiders (which, combined, are only about 60% more survivable, but no better in any other area), I don't think there's anyone who would pick the land raiders.

Even if you assign each of [carry capacity], [firepower], and [durability] to be worth 33% of the points value, the spartan is coming out way ahead in points efficiency. Using that napkin-math weighting of the stats, the Spartan should be somewhere in the region of 380 points, since it matches 5 of the 6 characteristics 2 land raiders have (2* firepower, 2* carry capacity, 1* durability (factoring only hull points into things)).

Ap0k wrote:
If you were given the choice of paying 305 for one spartan or 460 for 2 land raiders (which, combined, are only about 60% more survivable, but no better in any other area), I don't think there's anyone who would pick the land raiders.

Even if you assign each of [carry capacity], [firepower], and [durability] to be worth 33% of the points value, the spartan is coming out way ahead in points efficiency. Using that napkin-math weighting of the stats, the Spartan should be somewhere in the region of 380 points, since it matches 5 of the 6 characteristics 2 land raiders have (2* firepower, 2* carry capacity, 1* durability (factoring only hull points into things)).

And then you have to factor in how things actually work out on paper, which can be quite different.
Where I'm looking at it from is that to use it properly as a transport, you're sacrificing firepower for mobility, and end up shoving it into enemy fire most of the time, rather than playing the cover system to out-shoot the opponent.

And if you do use it to sit back and shoot, you're not transporting. It's got the split personality, but here you're only paying for one or the other, rather than paying through the bum to have both capabilities, but only being able to use it to half it's points worth in effectiveness.

If you can see what I mean.
That, and the fact that by the 350 point mark, you're essentially spending a small army's worth on it.

@Ap0k - Not sure I agree there.

There is no universal points costs for units in 40k. Some are purposely imbalanced for fluff / competitive / marketing reasons. ATSKNF is the best example of this, Codexes are teaming with others.

There are a lot of intangibles that cannot be point-costed but add value to units as well. The carrying capacity means a lot more if I am dropping off a Chaos uber-assault unit than it would in the hands of the emperor's lapdogs. How do you account for that in points?

This vehicle simply happens to be a better value than the Land Raider, based on what it can do but also because it is in the hands of Chaos. There are a lot of things I would say are undercosted in 40k, but that would only be my opinion.

@Selym:

Oh yeah, I totally get the dual role. It's why I eventually opted for a Fire Raptor instead of it.

I'd planned to put a huge Sonic Blaster NM squad into it and depositing them in the middle of the table turn 2 (getting a charge off if possible, but otherwise just being a collossal point blank threat that can't be ignored), then backing off a little with it if necessary, but aiming to at least get 3 turns worth of firing everything.

It doesn't want to be close with that firepower, but it at least has the survivability to get close, drop out a doom squad, and back up without getting turned into slag.

The Storm Eagle has the exact same problem, except when it drops its cargo it's going to get vaporised. You can either put a doom squad in it and drop it off early so that the cargo can do damage, or you can put a weeny squad in it and pink away from the backfield for 5 turns so that you can do a last minute objective grab.

I don't see the point in using it to plink away when you can just buy havocs or something else for half the points cost to do pretty much the same thing. Nor do I see the point in paying for a 20man capacity if you're not going to make use of it somehow.

It suffers from the same problem as a lot of marine transports in that they're built to perform 2 conflicting roles, and they're additively costed based on how well they perform those roles individually, but with little consideration that they can't actually do both at once, so regardless of whether you pick transport mode or gunboat mode, you're wasting points that you've paid for every turn.

Hence Fire Raptor :p

(Though I'd still pick a spartan over a storm eagle).


@Techsoldaten

I don't disagree with that point at all, but Spartans and Landraiders are so close together in general focus that I feel the comparison is fair. They're both costed to perform exactly the same role, and all armed with the same weapons. For all intents and purposes, the Spartan can essentially be considered 5/6ths of 2 land raiders.

 Selym wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

Without ceramite hull, that tank is a waste of points.

While I notice this comment, please explain how you came to this conclusion.

I also play eldar. 5 fire dragons in a wave serpent will wreck that tank if it doesn't have ceramite. For 230 points, I can get 5 fire dragon and a wave serpent with holofields and that would be useful against most armies. This unit ruins the termie Spartan deathstars mobility and given it probably comes in around 800-900 points, that'd really put a crimp on the opposition
With ceramite, you can discount a lot of anti tank.
Also, the Spartan has no potms, so as soon as you move it, you're losing firepower...
I wouldn't take a land raider either though, Imo, they never do enough damage for their points.
A 140pt las pred outguns a land raider.
I'd deep strike if I wanted termies near the enemy and get another squad with the change

 Selym wrote:

Ap0k wrote:

Even before ceramite armour was added as standard it should have been 350points minimum.

Eh, only by the CSM codex's reckoning. 305 for the Spartan w/Ceramite seems to be close enough to "balanced".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

Without ceramite hull, that tank is a waste of points.

While I notice this comment, please explain how you came to this conclusion.

A CSM predator's lascannon sponsoons (non twin linked single lascannons, btw) cost 40 pts.

This is a CSM LR +55 pts, +15 TC, +Twin-linked Sponsoon LC, +1 HP...

Really part of the problem is how bad the LR proteus is. 230 points for 2 lascannon shots is horrible. It's a metal transport box but doesnt carry enough.
Even with potms at 250 points, few marine players take that variant. The crusaider and redeemer are much more popular.