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There have been a ton of Riptide threads lately, so I decided to put my thoughts in one place. I run a suits based FE list centered around a Riptide Core that is not the O'VesaStar. I've been playing around with multiple Riptides for a while and this is my analysis.

Riptides. My take.


Pros:
Durable: T6, 5W, 2+/5++(3++), Possible FNP
Mobile: JSJ
IA: High Str/Low AP Large Blast, Range, EWO
HBC: Possible High Volume of Fire and Rending, VT

Cons:
BS3
I2
WS2/1
LD9
Not Fearless
Cost
Relatively Low Damage Output
IA: Poor AA option
Usually Requires Support: Buffmander, MarkerLights, ECPA, Guide/Precience Farseer, or Tigerius.
Reliability: Nova reactor and Gets Hot on IA Large Blast and Ordinance Large Blast


Riptides are highly mobile, highly durable units, but without support they often fail to deliver reliable damage output. Most successful builds using Riptides are supporting them in some way. O'VesaStar combines an ECPA RIptide and a VT HBC Riptide with Buffmaster Support. Adding the buffmander mitigates most downsides of the Riptide short of the Nova Reactor on the HBC Riptide. Allied Eldar with Guide or Precience can make Riptides Shine. An ECPA HBC Riptide is the best unsupported Riptide Available and doesn't require support outside of Markerlights. Markerlights can be used to support the Riptide as well to great affect.

Unsupported Riptides excel as IA EWO 190pt Riptides. Avoid the NOVA and use Markerlights if available to negate Cover and reduce scatter on your S8/AP2 Large Blast.

Low Damage Output of Unsupported IA Riptides

Low Damage Output of the IA Riptide. Gets Hot S8 AP2 Large Blast at BS3

17% chance of failing to fire
34% chance to Stick its Target.
48% chance to scatter at least one inch. 40% chance it scatters at least 3". 15% chance it scatters at least 6".

Compare it to the Subpar LRBT. Vs most Targets the LRBT deals ~15% more damage than the Riptide for ~75% the cost which makes it ~150% as effective vs anything that does not have a 2+ save as a long ranged weapon. Don't fall into the trap of the Riptide hype, it's not dealing that much damage with its IA. Now, properly supported, it becomes much more reliable and deadly. Unsupported, they are still a solid choice but often fail to live up to expectations.

Support System Options

Stim Injector: Helps Mitigate failed Nova Reactor wounds and Get Hot wounds on an HBC. A Stim Riptide can attempt to Nova every turn and expect to take a wound once per game. Increases durability of Riptide by 50% against wound damage. Potential Con is it pushes opponent to target softer units, so bait them. Best used with a small number of Riptides, 1-2.
Velocity Tracker: Trap for the IA Riptide. Useful in conjunction with a Stim Injector on an HBC Riptide.
EWO: Auto include on an IA Riptide. An option on an ECPA/VT HBC Riptide.
Target Lock: Required in the O'Vesa Star on the second Riptide, otherwise pointless.
Positional Relay: Niche use with Outflanking Kroot.
ATS, SDS, DC: No point.

Drones: Drones are generally a trap, they offer moderate firepower and ablative wounds but come with a huge vulnerability, Moral Checks. Best used in O'VesaStar builds.

Farsight Enclave
ECPA: Auto Include on an HBC Riptide unless O'Vesa is present.
Talisman of Arthas Moloch: Hugely beneficial in reducing the threat of JotWW.
O'Vesea: Critical component of the O'Vesa Star, best utilized with one additional Target Lock Velocity Tracker HBC Riptide and an allied Buffcommander. Requires Farsight to be your Warlord.

NOVA Reactor: When should you use it, and how?

Shield: When moderate to high amounts of High Strength/Low AP incoming fire is expected. Use Judiciously.
Thrust: When a late game contest is required or rapid redeployment or tactical retreat is necessary. Use only when absolutely necessary.
Ripple Fire: Use only when in TLFB Range of a hard target or when IA has Intercepted a target.
Nova IA: Use only when Ordinance is required.
Nova HBC: Every turn unless a Shield, Thrust, or Ripple Fire is Required. Best with Stim Injector or ECPA.

Short of an HBC Riptide, use the Nova Reactor judiciously, over the course of a six turn game it will deal 2 wounds to the Riptide unless either a Stim Injector or the ECPA is present.

AntiAir

The Riptide is generally a poor AA platform. Two SkyRays are vastly superior for roughly the same cost in many cases. If your list design requires your Riptides be used for AA the HBC Riptide is vastly superior than the IA Riptide. With a Velocity Tracker and a NovaCharged HBC its a truly potent AA Platform.


Close Combat

Avoid combat with your Riptide if at all possible. They stand a reasonable chance of losing combat and running from stock assault marines. If the target isn't a naked tactical squad, vehicle, or an equally inept target do no assault it and try to avoid assault if possible. There are a couple of opportunities where a Riptide can be used to tarpit a unit. Allied Buffcommander for Stubborn can tarpit most anything, but its costly. Riptides can tarpit large S3/4 AP3+ units such as Flesh Hounds without a Herald etc. Be careful, this could easily cost you a Riptide. Avoiding getting caught in a multiassault is critical, your opponent can easily target the softer unit and break/rundown your Riptide.

Mobility

Riptides are highly mobile weapons platforms. If yours are sitting still or hiding most of the game you are doing something wrong. Get them moving and push a flank and don't be afraid to split them up. Supporting fire is great, but splitting your Riptides up and away from your army can force difficult target priority decisions. This also makes it much more difficult to catch your Riptides in a multiassault. The ability to rapidly redeploy is huge. The 4d6 Thrust move is one of the best contesting abilities in the game. 6" Move + d6" Run +2/4d6" Thrust yields a 9-36" potential single turn move. The Riptide is one of the best contesting units in the game, and certainly the best one in the Tau codex. A timely thrust move will win you games by denying your opponent critical objectives.

Sacrifice

Don't be afraid to sacrifice your Riptides for the Greater Good. Riptides are non scoring denial units. If you can't use your Riptide to contest or can use them to protect a critical scoring unit, do it. All that firepower won't do you any good if you don't have any scoring units left. With a little luck they can also hold up a fast assault element of your opponent's army just long enough for you to counter it. Sometimes letting your Riptide die is the best thing you can do. Having nothing but a couple of Riptides on the board at the end of an objectives based game is still a loss, or draw at best. Don't be afraid to sacrifice your Riptides for the Greater Good.

Supporting a Riptide

ECPA: Amaing upgrade for a VT HBC Riptide. Brings reliable and substantial firepower. Can be used with IA Riptides, but to a lessor extent.

Tau Buffcommander: Pen, MSS, and C&CN are brutal. Vectored Retro Thrusters are great for avoiding CC. Twinlinked, Ignore Cover, and either Tank Huner or Monster Hunter are absolutely brutal and can turn a Riptide or the O'VesaStar into a killing machine. Stubborn in a pinch as well. Used to best effect in the O'VesaStar, but can be used for single Riptides. Optional Iriidum Armor, Stim Injector, and Shield Generator can create a unit capable of deleting one unit per turn. With the durability upgrades the BuffCommander is tougher than a stock Riptide.

Eldar Farseer: Guide and Prescience are potent and greatly increase the reliability Riptides, especially mitigating the Scatter and Gets Hot for IA Riptides. Farseers also have the possibility of rolling Perfect Timing.

Tigerius: Tigerious brings guaranteed Prescience to the table and ~75% chance of bringing Perfect Timing to ignore cover.

Markerlights: Remove cover for IA Riptides, and boosted BS for HBC Riptides. Skyfire Markerlights from a SkyRay greatly improve the AA capabilities of a Riptide.

How many should I field?

That depends solely on your list design. There is diminishing returns past two Riptides. Some builds can be centered around three. Three is required to make the potent O'VesaStar. Four is reserved for the O'VesaStar lists but is not required. Five is possible but not effective single FOC with O'Vesa and an allied Tau Riptide. With three Riptides in a list they begin to greatly limit your options for the rest of your list especially when support elements are factored in. With four or five you are delegated to MSU troop options which become the prominent weakness of the list.


How do I fight Riptides?

The first question you have to ask yourself is, "Do I need to kill the Riptides?" This can be a tough call, are those Riptides supported? How many are there? Do you have effective options to counter them? Is your army overly vulnerable to them?

Shoot Them
It is difficult to shoot Riptides down and generally what your opponent want you to do. Many armies can do it, but it will take a large amount of their firepower to do so. Large volumes of mid strength firepower can work, or readily available sources of high strength AP2/1. If they get their 3++ up, don't waste firepower on them and make sure to target Riptides with only a 5++. Its not easy, but you can focus down a Riptide in a single turn.

Tank Shock Them
Ld9. 17% chance of failure. 2d6 means you need to reliably keep your Riptide at least 9" away from a board edge, preferably 10 or 11".

LD Bomb Them
Some armies have access to LD based attacks, they will severely hurt a Riptide and if he is near a board edge he is apt to flee off the board.

Assault Them
Not always easy to do, but for armies with fast/mobile assault options it can certainly be viable. For other armies, assault them if possible. Riptides will fold to just about anything, so if you can get it into combat with a Riptide, do it. Any dedicated CC unit will murder them. At the least you will be able to Tarpit them for an extended period of time with just about anything. If you beat a Riptide, you will likely sweep it. If you can multiassault a softer target as well, do it. Riptides are not Fearless and will get run Down.

Ignore Them
Sometimes you may not have an effective means to counter opposing Riptides and if they are unsupported or you can easily negate their support it can be effective to simply ignore them. This is not always possible to do, but is always an option especially for non elite or MSU armies. They have a limited damage output and finite ability to kill units. Weigh the costs of this option. If they are spamming Riptides it may be much easier to simply counter their troops.

Suicide
Sometimes, if you can entice an opponent to use his NOVA it can be devasting. Over the course of a 6 turn game a NOVA will cause 2 wounds to a Riptide if they attempt it every time. Most often its the NOVA shield that is overused or the HBC. If you opponent is afraid of your Low AP weaponry, they may often be overzealous with their use of their NOVA.

Multifaceted Approach
Taking a multi pronged approach for handling Riptides is generally best and the most effective counters usually utilize a combination of the above strategies. For example, an army with moderate shooting but some durable fast assault units can ignore Riptides for the first Turn or two before boxing them in and assault/sweeping them.

There is my 2cents on the Riptide.

Nice tactica.

Here is my contribution/observations regarding Riptide tactics. Please note that I don't play Tau. I just like to kill them.

1. Oftentimes, it is better to split up your riptides. I know they have supporting fire, but you don't always have to put it into use. Mobility and positioning is very important, especially if you're playing against a fast opponent. Sometimes, you need to split up your tides from the rest of your army. You do this to a) threaten his objectives/troops and/or b) to lead some of his threats away from your main army.

2. Do not just leave you riptides in your deployment zone or behind ruins for cover for most of the game. Mobility is actually one of the strengths of the riptide. USE IT! I'd actually recommend to start moving them from Turn 1.

3. Don't hesitate to sacrifice your riptides. I just see so many players trying to protect their riptides as if their lives depended on it. They are not a VIP unit. Your troops are. Instead, riptides are a great bullet magnet. USE THEM AS SUCH! Sacrifice them as a speedbump if necessary....anything to allow your troops to live longer. Don't get too attached to them. If they die, it is only for the GREATER GOOD.

4. While most prefer the Ion Accelerator as the weapon of choice for their tides, I think the Heavy Burst Cannon is a necessity. If you bring 2 tides, go 1 HBC + 1 IA. If you bring 3, go 2 IA + 1 HBC. Anti-air is crucial to a balanced Tau army, and a EWO+skyfire HBC tide is your best answer to enemy flyers.

5. Another reason to split off your riptides from the core of your army, especially against assault armies, is that you don't want to get multi-assaulted by your opponent. The fastest way to kill a riptide is to multi-assault it and a softer unit (Tau troops or pathfinders) and to then kill him off by combat resolution in a sweeping advance. If they enemy gets close, time to break off your riptides. Better yet, start moving your tides away early.

6. Do not assault your riptide into an ongoing combat between your troops and an enemy assault unit. My opponent did it to me once (actually, twice). I just focused my attacks on his softer units and then swept his riptide afterwards. If your troops is stuck in a hopeless combat with an enemy assault specialist unit, then I'm afraid they're already done. No need to give them a farewell present in the form of your riptide.

7. Don't forget to use his Nova 4D6" assault move. Most people get just too caught up with his offense or sometimes, even his 3++. Sometimes, you need to see whether his 4D6" makes better sense instead of going to offense by instinct.

8. Riptides work best with support. Buffmander (Tau Commander), Eldar farseer, markerlights - all work great with the tides. As force-multipliers, it is these supporting units that actually make a riptide so much more effective. Take advantage of them.

Ok, that's it for now. Have fun!

Single comment to add. Jetpack troops only fall back 2d6 in 6th ed.

 Coyote81 wrote:
Single comment to add. Jetpack troops only fall back 2d6 in 6th ed.

Why is that? Aren't they still considered jump infantry?

 jy2 wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
Single comment to add. Jetpack troops only fall back 2d6 in 6th ed.

Why is that? Aren't they still considered jump infantry?

Not in 6th ed. Remember, Jet pack Infantry are their own class and even listed in the back table for falling back.

Good to know.

How have i never noticed that? Ive been having my jetpack units fall back 3D6 this whole time lol grrrr

Thanks jy2, I'll update with some of your points lates, especially expanding on Movement Phase tactics. Currently off to a tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Coyote81 wrote:
Single comment to add. Jetpack troops only fall back 2d6 in 6th ed.

Wow, amazing how many times I've glanced over that. Seriously, wow.

 jy2 wrote:
Nice tactica.

Here is my contribution/observations regarding Riptide tactics. Please note that I don't play Tau. I just like to kill them.

1. Oftentimes, it is better to split up your riptides. I know they have supporting fire, but you don't always have to put it into use. Mobility and positioning is very important, especially if you're playing against a fast opponent. Sometimes, you need to split up your tides from the rest of your army. You do this to a) threaten his objectives/troops and/or b) to lead some of his threats away from your main army.

2. Do not just leave you riptides in your deployment zone or behind ruins for cover for most of the game. Mobility is actually one of the strengths of the riptide. USE IT! I'd actually recommend to start moving them from Turn 1.

3. Don't hesitate to sacrifice your riptides. I just see so many players trying to protect their riptides as if their lives depended on it. They are not a VIP unit. Your troops are. Instead, riptides are a great bullet magnet. USE THEM AS SUCH! Sacrifice them as a speedbump if necessary....anything to allow your troops to live longer. Don't get too attached to them. If they die, it is only for the GREATER GOOD.

4. While most prefer the Ion Accelerator as the weapon of choice for their tides, I think the Heavy Burst Cannon is a necessity. If you bring 2 tides, go 1 HBC + 1 IA. If you bring 3, go 2 IA + 1 HBC. Anti-air is crucial to a balanced Tau army, and a EWO+skyfire HBC tide is your best answer to enemy flyers.

5. Another reason to split off your riptides from the core of your army, especially against assault armies, is that you don't want to get multi-assaulted by your opponent. The fastest way to kill a riptide is to multi-assault it and a softer unit (Tau troops or pathfinders) and to then kill him off by combat resolution in a sweeping advance. If they enemy gets close, time to break off your riptides. Better yet, start moving your tides away early.

6. Do not assault your riptide into an ongoing combat between your troops and an enemy assault unit. My opponent did it to me once (actually, twice). I just focused my attacks on his softer units and then swept his riptide afterwards. If your troops is stuck in a hopeless combat with an enemy assault specialist unit, then I'm afraid they're already done. No need to give them a farewell present in the form of your riptide.

7. Don't forget to use his Nova 4D6" assault move. Most people get just too caught up with his offense or sometimes, even his 3++. Sometimes, you need to see whether his 4D6" makes better sense instead of going to offense by instinct.

8. Riptides work best with support. Buffmander (Tau Commander), Eldar farseer, markerlights - all work great with the tides. As force-multipliers, it is these supporting units that actually make a riptide so much more effective. Take advantage of them.

Ok, that's it for now. Have fun!

actually spot on!

Here there is a lot of common sense that the interwebs seems to ignore when considering the riptide

Personally you keep them apart to give more target coverage and curtail any attempts to kill them off, they might bugger one up but the second one usually kills whatever killed his comerade i've only ever lost both of mine when things went very badly.

I also concur with the need for support, pathfinders are ace at it, i've also found the humble skyray to be of use here as well, those markerlights at BS 4 cause more trouble then you think.


I'd also like to air my own little take on it in addition to the advice here

The riptide is very good indeed when it is supported properly by other elements of the Tau army, however i'm begining to see some of the pitfalls of relying on them too much. They work well in pairs for obvious reasons, though in some of my games i am begining to question the need for 2 of them all of the time, when my crisis teams have consistently casued more havok and killed far more points than they are worth. Rasisng the very apt question: do i take more suits and one riptide given the effectiveness of JSJ currently? its is a question Tau players will have to grappell with.

I'm going to try a few more suits and one riptide next time- just to see what happens

One of the reasons I keep considering Farsight Enclaves is that I can have 2+ crisis units while still keeping 2 riptides.

Although markerlight intensive the str8 ap2 large blast can solve so many issues that the rest of the tau army can stuggle with.

Rathstar

I haven't read the other comments so I don't know if this has already been mentioned but I would say sacrifice those riptides! You want your scoring troops alive because riptides are essentials expendable assets. A decent opponent (unless the are gearing their army to face them in which case they have probably lost anyway) will simply ignore riptides in my experience. Be bolshy with them, ram them down your opponents throat (not literally of course you may encounter issues there), he certainly won't trying to go for them so make him.

Updated with some of the feedback offered, thanks guys.


Yesterday, in the last round of a local RTT I faced the single greatest threat my Riptides have faced yet. A WhiteScars army with Khan and Eternal Shield Chapter Master. He outflanked Khan and Grav Bikers and attacked the Chapter Master to Grav Centurions and outflanked them. With an allied Astropath he could effectively guarantee which side they arrived on and there was little I could do about it. Bikes show up out of LOS of the Intercepting IA Riptide, the Chapter Master can tank anything I could throw at it and the Grav Cents being guaranteed within range sealed the deal.

Now, I could have mitigated this match up through mobility with either Dawn of War or Vanguard Strike, but with with Hammer and Anvil it was the single scariest threat my Riptides had ever faced. Grantin Scout to Grav Centurions is absolutely brutal as it turns their effective range from 30" to 36" with the ability to Outflank on Hammer and Anvil.

So what should marine lists do that don't use White Scars and Khan?

Check out Reece's Ravenguard Space Marines. It was made to combat Tau (and other gunline builds).


Warhammer 40K Video Battle Report Raven Guard vs Tau & Eldar

All those cons are negligible. BS3 doesn't matter due to shooting templates, and can be boosted with markerlights. IG deals with BS3 just fine.

Initiative doesn't matter because you don't want to get into assault and it's very easy to deny the charge with Tau.

Ld9 is actually very high, it's higher than space marines and most normal units.

Fearless isn't something that everything has, nor should it be. "Not Fearless" is actually a con for 99% of the units in the game.

The Riptide's cost is not a con. It is criminally underpriced for how sturdy it is. If you think the Riptide is expensive or overpriced then it's pointless to even discuss anything.

Shooting AP2 templates is not low damage output. It just seems low because the Tau army as a whole has abnormally high damage output.

All the support a Riptide "requires" you were going to use anyway, and the Riptide does not even require it to do its job.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
All those cons are negligible. BS3 doesn't matter due to shooting templates, and can be boosted with markerlights. IG deals with BS3 just fine.

Initiative doesn't matter because you don't want to get into assault and it's very easy to deny the charge with Tau.

Ld9 is actually very high, it's higher than space marines and most normal units.

Fearless isn't something that everything has, nor should it be. "Not Fearless" is actually a con for 99% of the units in the game.

The Riptide's cost is not a con. It is criminally underpriced for how sturdy it is. If you think the Riptide is expensive or overpriced then it's pointless to even discuss anything.

Shooting AP2 templates is not low damage output. It just seems low because the Tau army as a whole has abnormally high damage output.

All the support a Riptide "requires" you were going to use anyway, and the Riptide does not even require it to do its job.

BS 3 does matter when shooting templates, granted not as much as firing the HBC, but it does increase nearly every scatter result. I did the math, only 28% of the time will you stick your target with an IA shot. The biggest downside to the IA is that it Get's Got, 1/6 chance you do not fire the weapon.

Initiative does matter. Versus good opponents and good lists you will find yourself in CC, and when you lose, you'll get swept. Not to mention things like Jaws.

Not fearless on an MC that is easily beaten and swept in combat is a problem. It also makes them vulnerable to leadership based attacks and tank shocks. It also prevents them from being an adequate tarpit. On its incredibly durable body, not being fearless is a problem.

Riptides are not cheap. I never once said they are overcosted, please don't try and put words in my mouth. But, most of the time you will be spending ~200+ points for a Riptide. Don't try and confuse expensive and overcosted.

AP2 Large blasts.... that don't fire 1/6 of the time... have difficulty hitting their target... usually only get 3-4 models when they do... and allow a cover save. Over the course of a 6 turn game they'll kill 10 marines in woods utilizing maximum coherency. Interestingly enough the HBC attempting to NOVA charge every turn has the same damage output, it just deals two wounds to itself in the process. That is only twice what a full dual plasma with gun drones squad does on the drop. Yes I know its a poor metric, but it will work. If you opponents are grouping their AS2+/3+ models tightly within LOS and without cover against your Riptides, then yes, they have great damage output, assuming they don't Get Hot or don't scatter and miss them completely.

For Riptides to truly be effective they require support. No one is dealing large amounts of game changing damage to their opponents with unsupported Riptides. See my above example. With 6 marker lights or a BuffCommander you effectively can double that damage output, but more importantly you add reliability to the unit, the ability hit that unit you need to hard when the opportunity arises. If you think Unsupported Riptides have good reliable and cost efficient damage output then it is pointless to discuss anything with you.

Except what player plays Tau without markerlights? If you're just going to throw things like BS3 out as cons, then you may as well put "Not a Riptide" for every other unit in the game as a con.

Scared of Jaws? Ally in Farsight for Talisman of Arthas Moloch. The only hard counters to Tau left all lie in assault.

Riptides aren't expensive at all. Why do you think people are running 3. Some even running more than 3. Running up to 5, even.

Good sound advice here from Zagman.

 jy2 wrote:

5. Another reason to split off your riptides from the core of your army, especially against assault armies, is that you don't want to get multi-assaulted by your opponent. The fastest way to kill a riptide is to multi-assault it and a softer unit (Tau troops or pathfinders) and to then kill him off by combat resolution in a sweeping advance. If they enemy gets close, time to break off your riptides. Better yet, start moving your tides away early.

As there is generally no downside to multicharging Tau...with defensive grenades and supporting fire...I will always do it whenever possible.

So follow the above advice.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Except what player plays Tau without markerlights? If you're just going to throw things like BS3 out as cons, then you may as well put "Not a Riptide" for every other unit in the game as a con.

Scared of Jaws? Ally in Farsight for Talisman of Arthas Moloch. The only hard counters to Tau left all lie in assault.

Riptides aren't expensive at all. Why do you think people are running 3. Some even running more than 3. Running up to 5, even.

Did you miss the part about how many markerlights is actually takes to turn an IA Riptide into a damage machine? Six. Four to increase its BS to 6 to allow the reroll of the gets hot and to reduce the risk of scatter to something negligible. Two more to ignore cover. With just Ignores Cover you still risk the IA getting Hot and can't mitigate the risk of scatter. Don't get me wrong, its amazing, but unreliable. So, do you have 12 pathfinders per IA Riptide? No? Then they will be far from reliable. The Buffcommander or Farseer do much more for Riptides. The HBC benefits more from Markerlights through weight of fire.

Ally Farsight? Great, means you aren't allying Eldar.

And anyone running more than Three Riptides outside of one very specific build, the O'VesaStar is making a mistake at sub 2000pt games. And in the O'VesaStar its the supported Riptides that do most of the Damage. The unsupported Riptides contribute far far less. As soon as people begin to bring that many Riptides their scoring contingent takes a huge hit, and it costs games.

Thanks for the OP Zagman. As a Tau player I only run 1 or 2 riptides at a time but this is all great advice that should help many people.

Zagman: What you are missing is that a BS6 S8 AP2 large blast is pretty much killing a unit guaranteed per turn. While 6 hits seems like a lot, when you have a marker drone commander (who is firing a quad gun or Icarus) you are bs5 and so those drones are pretty good at hitting. You can probably generate those 6 hits on at least 2 targets a turn. Two removed units with only inv saves pretty much shuts down an army.

Also, you dont NEED all 5 hits. SOME units on the field will be out of cover.

Consider that Russes were considered good-medocre until the heavy rule change. 1 S8 AP3 large blast and 3x heavy bolters for only a tiny bit less than a riptide. Now lets go pro-con here of a riptide with IA

Pro:
-WAY more durable. Especially with the lack of poison-AP2 weapons or ID at range.
-able to buy FNP to be even more durable
-much, much more mobile.
-JSJ
-supporting fire
-can tarpit units you cant deal with
-in the army with the best supporting abilities
-AP2
-Has multi-shot mode to deal with MCs

Con:
-Is weak to melee? (medium and light assault squads still lose to a riptide)
-Has a ld value
-a tiny bit more expensive
-only 1 2ndary weapon instead of 3, though the one weapon is better as it ignores cover and can have its BS buffed.
-can be ID'd by the few weapons in the game that are both AP2 and ID.


So, effectively all pluses to the riptide besides the ld, which is still pretty darn good. Honestly, 4 riptide lists in 2k are still the toughest list to beat consistently IMO. A good tau player simply has all the cards in his hand and you have to hope the dice gods are in your favor and play the objectives better than he can. But what i hate more than playing them is having to build a list that accounts for a single unit in a single codex. Necrons i could take a TAC list and deal with though i had to emphasize portions of my list more than before. 5th GK i struggled with, but still could beat them. Now i am REQUIRED to take either a stupid quantity of AP2 or fast units with AP2 JUST to deal with the fething riptide. It makes my TAC list worse, but i KNOW i will have to deal with the same list in the final rounds of competitions.

I dont mind Tau having something along the lines of a MC with lots of guns, I got used to that notion when fighting Crisis Suits and being gunned down by fire support.

What I DISLIKE, is that the bloody thing can get a GOOD invuln save, better than Abaddon in some cases (3++) AND has access to a str9 AP2 Nova Charge Ion Accelerator with 72" Range.

I wouldnt mind having to roll every now and again for my Defilers, and on a roll of 3+ being able to dish out str9 AP2 large blasts from my battle cannon...

It's also depressing when you go to tournaments and find people using 3-4 bloody things and tabling their opponents in 1 turn because of said large blasts

 zephoid wrote:
Zagman: What you are missing is that a BS6 S8 AP2 large blast is pretty much killing a unit guaranteed per turn. While 6 hits seems like a lot, when you have a marker drone commander (who is firing a quad gun or Icarus) you are bs5 and so those drones are pretty good at hitting. You can probably generate those 6 hits on at least 2 targets a turn. Two removed units with only inv saves pretty much shuts down an army.

Also, you dont NEED all 5 hits. SOME units on the field will be out of cover.

Consider that Russes were considered good-medocre until the heavy rule change. 1 S8 AP3 large blast and 3x heavy bolters for only a tiny bit less than a riptide. Now lets go pro-con here of a riptide with IA

Pro:
-WAY more durable. Especially with the lack of poison-AP2 weapons or ID at range.
-able to buy FNP to be even more durable
-much, much more mobile.
-JSJ
-supporting fire
-can tarpit units you cant deal with
-in the army with the best supporting abilities
-AP2
-Has multi-shot mode to deal with MCs

Con:
-Is weak to melee? (medium and light assault squads still lose to a riptide)
-Has a ld value
-a tiny bit more expensive
-only 1 2ndary weapon instead of 3, though the one weapon is better as it ignores cover and can have its BS buffed.
-can be ID'd by the few weapons in the game that are both AP2 and ID.


So, effectively all pluses to the riptide besides the ld, which is still pretty darn good. Honestly, 4 riptide lists in 2k are still the toughest list to beat consistently IMO. A good tau player simply has all the cards in his hand and you have to hope the dice gods are in your favor and play the objectives better than he can. But what i hate more than playing them is having to build a list that accounts for a single unit in a single codex. Necrons i could take a TAC list and deal with though i had to emphasize portions of my list more than before. 5th GK i struggled with, but still could beat them. Now i am REQUIRED to take either a stupid quantity of AP2 or fast units with AP2 JUST to deal with the fething riptide. It makes my TAC list worse, but i KNOW i will have to deal with the same list in the final rounds of competitions.

Riptide to Russ is Apples to Potatoes. Its also a unit from a 5thEd codex that was never considered to be a great unit. BTW the Russ doesn't fail to fire 1/6 shots. Vs all infantry and vs MCs with a 3+save or worse the Russ is actually more effective with a higher and greater damage output. And vs Vehicles being Ordinance by default makes it more effective vs most vehicles as well. Also, don't factor in triple heavy bolters, who it dumb enough to waste points in that way on Snap Shots, seriously? Compare the fire power of one and a third Leman Russ to an unreliable Riptide. Now, Riptides bring a lot more to the table on their durable platform, but bring less long ranged firepower than Russes at range when not fully supported. If Russes didn't have to Snap shot their firepower would surpass the unsupported Riptide.

So, you acknowledge Riptides need support to be effective, good. I understand just how potent a Reroll Gets Hot, Reroll Scatter, Ignore's Cover S8/AP2 Large blast can be. I also know just how easy it is for it to only hit 3-4 models with smart use of unit coherency. So, a MarkO and a large squad of Marker Drones is all that is required to support a single Riptide? That is alot of expensive Support, ~200pt to support a ~200pt Riptide, not to mention it won't be supporting the rest of your army. Under the right circumstances it will delete a single unit, but that is far from a guarantee. Smart opponents will not make it easy.

The Meta changes, and will change again. So you have to adjust your list to handle Riptides, just like I have to adjust mine to handle Wave Serpents, etc. The whole damn meta will get thrown upside down when Tyranids, IG, and Orks hit through the first half of next year and we will changing our lists to handle different threats yet again.

Yes, the four Riptide O'Vesa star is nasty, but it is only due to O'Vesa, the BuffCommander, and the second Riptide that does in that unit. The other two are purely redundancy and don't bring a ton to the table. IMO it may be more effective to run the O'VesaStar with only three Riptides and spend the points elsewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoliothOnline wrote:
I dont mind Tau having something along the lines of a MC with lots of guns, I got used to that notion when fighting Crisis Suits and being gunned down by fire support.

What I DISLIKE, is that the bloody thing can get a GOOD invuln save, better than Abaddon in some cases (3++) AND has access to a str9 AP2 Nova Charge Ion Accelerator with 72" Range.

I wouldnt mind having to roll every now and again for my Defilers, and on a roll of 3+ being able to dish out str9 AP2 large blasts from my battle cannon...

It's also depressing when you go to tournaments and find people using 3-4 bloody things and tabling their opponents in 1 turn because of said large blasts

Yep, and if they NOVA every turn they will deal an average of two wounds to themselves over the course of the game. 1/3 chance of taking a wound and not getting the desired result.

Ok, wow, 3-4 Riptides tabling their opponents in a single turn. That is amazing, so much so I don't believe it. That is a terrible exaggeration. Even if opponent used clumped deployment, it wouldn't happen. Please try and offer something productive, not gross over exaggerations of Riptide performance.

Most 2+ MCs have been melee for balance reasons in addition to the general fluff. They are resistant to poison and most things that generally are useful for killing MCs at mid-long range. A Dredknight is manageable because it has to get into plasma double tap to be effective. That means the most common AP2 weapon in the game, plasma, is a good way to counter them. At 4 wounds and >200 points for a general configuration, they are also expensive enough to justify their defensive stats. A riptide has none of those problems. It can sit beyond 24" and fire all day, meaning you need long range AP2 to counter it. Now, the game lacks high ROF AP2 weapons at long range unless they are very expensive. Therefore the riptide need only take out the few sources of good AP2 shooting before the controlling player effectively controls the board.

For melee you have another problem. Generally, you need high-quality CC units to deal with 2+ save MCs. While you can fight a 3+ MC with things like krak grenades, you cant fight a 2+ save with them. You simply wont do enough damage to counteract its AP2, even with a riptide's poor CC stats. A riptide averages a wound a turn. it takes 18 guys with krak grenades to average the same. Therefore, in CC you need AP2 and >S4 which again limits what you can throw at riptide to be effective.


Riptides dont have to have WTF firepower. They have to have strong firepower and the ability to survive the game. By turn 4-5 you will have most of your riptides alive and, even unsupported (often the commander+drones are still alive too), able to put out enough firepower to mop up the units that the rest of your army whittled down. You dont need alpha strike when you can remove threats to yourself and then manage the remaining weaker units over the course of the game.


Another problem with riptides (and the helldrake too) is game design. You cant physically make a weapon strong enough to fight them without nerfing every MC in the game. Without the old solution to MCs(poison) being effective here, there needs to be some weapon to deal with them. Anything high-str, low-AP, high-rof enough to deal with a riptide would be baliantly overpowered against the rest of the targets in the game. Anything thats specifically good against MCs makes all other MCs be worse because of it (and doubly so because riptides are common in competition). Grav was a nice try, but 24" means the riptide can simply remove you by turn 3 when you finally get in range of the riptide. Knowing GW, they will print the counter weapon and damn the consequences, creating yet another OP unit. This is the basis of power creep and the riptide is going to be a huge factor in its perpetuation.

With blast weapons and gets hot, a roll of one still fires the blast.

 Zagman wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Zagman: What you are missing is that a BS6 S8 AP2 large blast is pretty much killing a unit guaranteed per turn. While 6 hits seems like a lot, when you have a marker drone commander (who is firing a quad gun or Icarus) you are bs5 and so those drones are pretty good at hitting. You can probably generate those 6 hits on at least 2 targets a turn. Two removed units with only inv saves pretty much shuts down an army.

Also, you dont NEED all 5 hits. SOME units on the field will be out of cover.

Consider that Russes were considered good-medocre until the heavy rule change. 1 S8 AP3 large blast and 3x heavy bolters for only a tiny bit less than a riptide. Now lets go pro-con here of a riptide with IA

Pro:
-WAY more durable. Especially with the lack of poison-AP2 weapons or ID at range.
-able to buy FNP to be even more durable
-much, much more mobile.
-JSJ
-supporting fire
-can tarpit units you cant deal with
-in the army with the best supporting abilities
-AP2
-Has multi-shot mode to deal with MCs

Con:
-Is weak to melee? (medium and light assault squads still lose to a riptide)
-Has a ld value
-a tiny bit more expensive
-only 1 2ndary weapon instead of 3, though the one weapon is better as it ignores cover and can have its BS buffed.
-can be ID'd by the few weapons in the game that are both AP2 and ID.


So, effectively all pluses to the riptide besides the ld, which is still pretty darn good. Honestly, 4 riptide lists in 2k are still the toughest list to beat consistently IMO. A good tau player simply has all the cards in his hand and you have to hope the dice gods are in your favor and play the objectives better than he can. But what i hate more than playing them is having to build a list that accounts for a single unit in a single codex. Necrons i could take a TAC list and deal with though i had to emphasize portions of my list more than before. 5th GK i struggled with, but still could beat them. Now i am REQUIRED to take either a stupid quantity of AP2 or fast units with AP2 JUST to deal with the fething riptide. It makes my TAC list worse, but i KNOW i will have to deal with the same list in the final rounds of competitions.

Riptide to Russ is Apples to Potatoes. Its also a unit from a 5thEd codex that was never considered to be a great unit. BTW the Russ doesn't fail to fire 1/6 shots. Vs all infantry and vs MCs with a 3+save or worse the Russ is actually more effective with a higher and greater damage output. And vs Vehicles being Ordinance by default makes it more effective vs most vehicles as well. Also, don't factor in triple heavy bolters, who it dumb enough to waste points in that way on Snap Shots, seriously? Compare the fire power of one and a third Leman Russ to an unreliable Riptide. Now, Riptides bring a lot more to the table on their durable platform, but bring less long ranged firepower than Russes at range when not fully supported. If Russes didn't have to Snap shot their firepower would surpass the unsupported Riptide.

So, you acknowledge Riptides need support to be effective, good. I understand just how potent a Reroll Gets Hot, Reroll Scatter, Ignore's Cover S8/AP2 Large blast can be. I also know just how easy it is for it to only hit 3-4 models with smart use of unit coherency. So, a MarkO and a large squad of Marker Drones is all that is required to support a single Riptide? That is alot of expensive Support, ~200pt to support a ~200pt Riptide, not to mention it won't be supporting the rest of your army. Under the right circumstances it will delete a single unit, but that is far from a guarantee. Smart opponents will not make it easy.

The Meta changes, and will change again. So you have to adjust your list to handle Riptides, just like I have to adjust mine to handle Wave Serpents, etc. The whole damn meta will get thrown upside down when Tyranids, IG, and Orks hit through the first half of next year and we will changing our lists to handle different threats yet again.

Yes, the four Riptide O'Vesa star is nasty, but it is only due to O'Vesa, the BuffCommander, and the second Riptide that does in that unit. The other two are purely redundancy and don't bring a ton to the table. IMO it may be more effective to run the O'VesaStar with only three Riptides and spend the points elsewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoliothOnline wrote:
I dont mind Tau having something along the lines of a MC with lots of guns, I got used to that notion when fighting Crisis Suits and being gunned down by fire support.

What I DISLIKE, is that the bloody thing can get a GOOD invuln save, better than Abaddon in some cases (3++) AND has access to a str9 AP2 Nova Charge Ion Accelerator with 72" Range.

I wouldnt mind having to roll every now and again for my Defilers, and on a roll of 3+ being able to dish out str9 AP2 large blasts from my battle cannon...

It's also depressing when you go to tournaments and find people using 3-4 bloody things and tabling their opponents in 1 turn because of said large blasts

Yep, and if they NOVA every turn they will deal an average of two wounds to themselves over the course of the game. 1/3 chance of taking a wound and not getting the desired result.

Ok, wow, 3-4 Riptides tabling their opponents in a single turn. That is amazing, so much so I don't believe it. That is a terrible exaggeration. Even if opponent used clumped deployment, it wouldn't happen. Please try and offer something productive, not gross over exaggerations of Riptide performance.

1) No, it was not an exageration. DOW (long board sides) is an easy game for Tau especially for first turn. So please, don't call BS if you don't know the army match ups especially if you weren't there to see the hilarity.

2) Riptides are stupid when cuppled with markerlights, people hardly ever do so.

3) Offer productive responses rather than bashing first hand experience behind the board, from both a Tau player, and Tau exterminator.

That is all, good day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zephoid wrote:

Most 2+ MCs have been melee for balance reasons in addition to the general fluff. They are resistant to poison and most things that generally are useful for killing MCs at mid-long range. A Dredknight is manageable because it has to get into plasma double tap to be effective. That means the most common AP2 weapon in the game, plasma, is a good way to counter them. At 4 wounds and >200 points for a general configuration, they are also expensive enough to justify their defensive stats. A riptide has none of those problems. It can sit beyond 24" and fire all day, meaning you need long range AP2 to counter it. Now, the game lacks high ROF AP2 weapons at long range unless they are very expensive. Therefore the riptide need only take out the few sources of good AP2 shooting before the controlling player effectively controls the board.

For melee you have another problem. Generally, you need high-quality CC units to deal with 2+ save MCs. While you can fight a 3+ MC with things like krak grenades, you cant fight a 2+ save with them. You simply wont do enough damage to counteract its AP2, even with a riptide's poor CC stats. A riptide averages a wound a turn. it takes 18 guys with krak grenades to average the same. Therefore, in CC you need AP2 and >S4 which again limits what you can throw at riptide to be effective.


Riptides dont have to have WTF firepower. They have to have strong firepower and the ability to survive the game. By turn 4-5 you will have most of your riptides alive and, even unsupported (often the commander+drones are still alive too), able to put out enough firepower to mop up the units that the rest of your army whittled down. You dont need alpha strike when you can remove threats to yourself and then manage the remaining weaker units over the course of the game.


Another problem with riptides (and the helldrake too) is game design. You cant physically make a weapon strong enough to fight them without nerfing every MC in the game. Without the old solution to MCs(poison) being effective here, there needs to be some weapon to deal with them. Anything high-str, low-AP, high-rof enough to deal with a riptide would be baliantly overpowered against the rest of the targets in the game. Anything thats specifically good against MCs makes all other MCs be worse because of it (and doubly so because riptides are common in competition). Grav was a nice try, but 24" means the riptide can simply remove you by turn 3 when you finally get in range of the riptide. Knowing GW, they will print the counter weapon and damn the consequences, creating yet another OP unit. This is the basis of power creep and the riptide is going to be a huge factor in its perpetuation.

I completely agree with you there.. The problem with the newer units coming out, (Tide and Knight) is that they are simply not enough competent ways to deal with them.. and because of that, the newer codecies who are granted specific ways to deal with them, become greatly valued as armies in local metas for DEALING with said past codecies who have things like the Wraithknight and Riptide. For instance, the Drake, changed the meta.. Tau got skyfire to spare in their codex, Everyone started playing Tau more and bringing them as allies, JUST for their Skyfire capabilities... Wraithknight comes out.. Continue and what not..

Execellent info above. Great read.

My only comment is this:

I struggle to understand one aspect of the Riptide: that it has 5 wounds. It's almost like its supposed to be a super heavy Apoc. vehicle.

Assuming it has 5 wounds due to "technology" and/or reduntant repair systems, it'd make more sense for it to always have 3++ Inv which can be Nova charged to 2++ Inv and at most have 4 wounds. 5 just seems overly excessive for something piloted by a T3 alien. It almost has Tyranid stats.

Just my two cents and was wondering if anybody else thought the 5 W's were excessive, over-the-top, and unsupported by previous 40k models precedence.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
With blast weapons and gets hot, a roll of one still fires the blast.

Incorrect, please reread the Get's Hot section on pg 37.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zephoid wrote:

Most 2+ MCs have been melee for balance reasons in addition to the general fluff. They are resistant to poison and most things that generally are useful for killing MCs at mid-long range. A Dredknight is manageable because it has to get into plasma double tap to be effective. That means the most common AP2 weapon in the game, plasma, is a good way to counter them. At 4 wounds and >200 points for a general configuration, they are also expensive enough to justify their defensive stats. A riptide has none of those problems. It can sit beyond 24" and fire all day, meaning you need long range AP2 to counter it. Now, the game lacks high ROF AP2 weapons at long range unless they are very expensive. Therefore the riptide need only take out the few sources of good AP2 shooting before the controlling player effectively controls the board.

For melee you have another problem. Generally, you need high-quality CC units to deal with 2+ save MCs. While you can fight a 3+ MC with things like krak grenades, you cant fight a 2+ save with them. You simply wont do enough damage to counteract its AP2, even with a riptide's poor CC stats. A riptide averages a wound a turn. it takes 18 guys with krak grenades to average the same. Therefore, in CC you need AP2 and >S4 which again limits what you can throw at riptide to be effective.


Riptides dont have to have WTF firepower. They have to have strong firepower and the ability to survive the game. By turn 4-5 you will have most of your riptides alive and, even unsupported (often the commander+drones are still alive too), able to put out enough firepower to mop up the units that the rest of your army whittled down. You dont need alpha strike when you can remove threats to yourself and then manage the remaining weaker units over the course of the game.


Another problem with riptides (and the helldrake too) is game design. You cant physically make a weapon strong enough to fight them without nerfing every MC in the game. Without the old solution to MCs(poison) being effective here, there needs to be some weapon to deal with them. Anything high-str, low-AP, high-rof enough to deal with a riptide would be baliantly overpowered against the rest of the targets in the game. Anything thats specifically good against MCs makes all other MCs be worse because of it (and doubly so because riptides are common in competition). Grav was a nice try, but 24" means the riptide can simply remove you by turn 3 when you finally get in range of the riptide. Knowing GW, they will print the counter weapon and damn the consequences, creating yet another OP unit. This is the basis of power creep and the riptide is going to be a huge factor in its perpetuation.

This is not a thread about the Riptide being overpowered or not. This is a tactica for people to use them effectively and counter them effectively. You may not agree with the unit or how GW priced them, but they are here. IMO the Dreadknight is and always was overcosted, the Personal Teleporter Upgrade is horrendously overpriced while base, they are priced appropriately. Giving Daemon MCs Flying for so cheap was criminal.

Grav is a very effective counter. Its an effective 30" range on Bikes and Grav Cents. Both of which shred Riptides, even with FNP. White Scars and Scouting makes it an almost guaranteed 1st turn double Riptide assassination. GW offered a pretty hard counter to the Meta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoliothOnline wrote:


1) No, it was not an exageration. DOW (long board sides) is an easy game for Tau especially for first turn. So please, don't call BS if you don't know the army match ups especially if you weren't there to see the hilarity.

2) Riptides are stupid when cuppled with markerlights, people hardly ever do so.

3) Offer productive responses rather than bashing first hand experience behind the board, from both a Tau player, and Tau exterminator.

That is all, good day.



I completely agree with you there.. The problem with the newer units coming out, (Tide and Knight) is that they are simply not enough competent ways to deal with them.. and because of that, the newer codecies who are granted specific ways to deal with them, become greatly valued as armies in local metas for DEALING with said past codecies who have things like the Wraithknight and Riptide. For instance, the Drake, changed the meta.. Tau got skyfire to spare in their codex, Everyone started playing Tau more and bringing them as allies, JUST for their Skyfire capabilities... Wraithknight comes out.. Continue and what not..

1. It may have happened, but the gross exaggeration is talking about it like it is a common occurrence. Riptides don't have that much offense. It possible, a Cron Air list with only two units on the table, etc. But, it certainly won't happen in most game and usually is only possible in a heavy reserves list.

2. Markerlight make Riptides much better, that is exactly what force multipliers do. But, it takes a ton of markerlights to make them deal tremendous amounts of damage. Markerlights are required for Riptides to be as powerful as the internet seems to make them.

3. I bashed your post, because it was pretty ludicrous. Don't talk about such an absolutely rare outlying occurrence like it is common place. You saw it happen once, its not likely to happen very often and it certainly isn't the norm. I've tabled two opponents in tournament play with my Riptide lists, both times on Turns 4. I've also been nearly tabled myself, once on T2 by a DE list. I had only one crisis suit alive, both Riptides were dead. Does that make DE OP? Saying Riptides lists just table opponents without effort isn't reality.


I've said it earlier, this isn't the thread to bitch and whine about the Riptide. This is a tactica thread. Contribute something useful or go to one of the other threads is you want to bitch and moan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Execellent info above. Great read.

My only comment is this:

I struggle to understand one aspect of the Riptide: that it has 5 wounds. It's almost like its supposed to be a super heavy Apoc. vehicle.

Assuming it has 5 wounds due to "technology" and/or reduntant repair systems, it'd make more sense for it to always have 3++ Inv which can be Nova charged to 2++ Inv and at most have 4 wounds. 5 just seems overly excessive for something piloted by a T3 alien. It almost has Tyranid stats.

Just my two cents and was wondering if anybody else thought the 5 W's were excessive, over-the-top, and unsupported by previous 40k models precedence.

I'm sure the Riptide started out as a four wound MC, but they found the NOVA reactor really chipped away wounds and made the Riptide underperform. I bet if the NOVA Reactor didn't hurt the Riptide it'd be a four wound MC.

 Zagman wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
With blast weapons and gets hot, a roll of one still fires the blast.

Incorrect, please reread the Get's Hot section on pg 37.

Huh, I guess you are right. I'm not sure if this is just a rule change, but the guys I play with have never used it that way.