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For all you Chaos Marine players out there, which do you think would be a stronger* codex at the moment, the 5th edition CSM codex, or the 6th edition?

Personally I have no idea, there are things I prefer about both of them, one of those being that 5th ed had cheap EW DP's, but 6th has Heldrakes.


*I was going to say "better", but that's relative to your point of view, anyone who's getting killed by triple chickens is going to say that 5th was better.

Because lash and oblits were so powerful the 5th chaos codex stayed longer good , then the 6th one. chaos 6th ed started sucking very fast.

Wasn't the 5th edition codex actually the 4th edition codex?

Martel732 wrote:
Wasn't the 5th edition codex actually the 4th edition codex?

It was.

In all honesty the 5th one would probably be slightly better, the ability to infiltrate chosen means we'd have more options for getting them closer for plasma, or the ability to get in their backfield with outflank.

Daemon Princes would be cheap and useful, and with the pre-nerfed warptime do very well regardless of the loss of the black mace, it'd be cheap enough to be worth it, it also wasn't considered "UBER" and we'd have less complaints about our Heldrakes despite them not even propping up a lower tier codex.

I'm not really sure it'd be all that good for ME however, who runs an Emperor's Children army with blastmasters, which got soooo much better in 6th.

This edition has kicked meqs in the power jimmies in general. CSM has gotten the worst of it because them and the DA were first.

Helldrakes aren't even that strong anymore in the scheme of things because the Tau and Eldar can shred 3+ armor as well.

I play Thousand Sons. Is there an option for neither?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Wasn't the 5th edition codex actually the 4th edition codex?

It was.

In all honesty the 5th one would probably be slightly better, the ability to infiltrate chosen means we'd have more options for getting them closer for plasma, or the ability to get in their backfield with outflank.

Daemon Princes would be cheap and useful, and with the pre-nerfed warptime do very well regardless of the loss of the black mace, it'd be cheap enough to be worth it, it also wasn't considered "UBER" and we'd have less complaints about our Heldrakes despite them not even propping up a lower tier codex.

I'm not really sure it'd be all that good for ME however, who runs an Emperor's Children army with blastmasters, which got soooo much better in 6th.

This guy speaks the truth. I was just going to post something like this. No infiltrating chosen is a bitch, as is no EW prince.

However, considering I run Thousand Sons, this edition has done nothing.

EDIT: Actually, just remembered how much better 5th was - mark of Tzeentch gave a 5+ invulnerable to all my CSM squads.

EDIT_2: The best thing out of the new codex was the Black Mace. On a Flying Daemon Prince.

 Evil_Toast wrote:
I play Thousand Sons. Is there an option for neither?

Should be an option for 3.5 I miss my dust wing so god dam much I also miss my chosen sorc squad.

Dam you GW you just had to kick TS in the nuts and leave your foot there

The boon of the 6th ed codex is spawn, cheap scoring cultists and marked obliterators, as well as maulerfiends, bikes and such.

While the 4th book had some good stuff, a lot of that came down to old standards that were good in 4th and 5th edition.

If you go by gods, then khorne, nurgle and slanessh got good boosts in the new book, but tzeetch kinda puttered out.

I loved using icons for deep strike auto-hits with the old CSM book, but have since adjusted my tactics.

In general though, the new CSM book is better than the old one, simply because you can field more for less.

 juraigamer wrote:
The boon of the 6th ed codex is spawn, cheap scoring cultists and marked obliterators, as well as maulerfiends, bikes and such.

While the 4th book had some good stuff, a lot of that came down to old standards that were good in 4th and 5th edition.

If you go by gods, then khorne, nurgle and slanessh got good boosts in the new book, but tzeetch kinda puttered out.

I loved using icons for deep strike auto-hits with the old CSM book, but have since adjusted my tactics.

In general though, the new CSM book is better than the old one, simply because you can field more for less.

Actually Nurgle remained the same, Slaanesh got a boost, and Khorne got worse. Sure it got a price reduction, but it's mark got far worse and there's no real way of getting them to assault now besides Huron.

Nurgle was just that good, and actually got slightly better due to plague weapons in melee too.

Should be an option for 3.5 I miss my dust wing so god dam much I also miss my chosen sorc squad.

I miss the ability to have a Chaos Sorcerer Lord and Actual buy-able mutations for Possessed and Aspiring champs/HQ's.

Before they had the idea to make us more spikey marines with a chaos lord like captain.

I play my CSM very gun heavy, so the addition of overwatch and the drop in marine costs made me a happy cultist. Sure no EW daemon prince is rage inducing, and yeah, we were the first codex so the power-creep will (and to some degree has) overtake us... But just because other armies got better doesn't mean we got worse. I hear a lot of (not just here) "Heldrakes aren't that good anymore, everyone can do stuff like that". Cool, so every other army can also melt whole units of SM, good times!

The 6E book is probably stronger, but lacks some operational methods available to the previous book that are sorely missed. My previous army was built on running rhino's full of troops and Icons up, having the reserves (Oblits and Combi-termi's) come in on the icons for no DS scatter, and clear the way for the CSM's in the Rhino's, but alas, those tools are no longer available.

The current book would have been really strong in 5th, Forgefiends would have been absolutely brutal, in many ways it feels like it was a 5E designed book, and I think that's part of it's problem. Introducing a whole bunch of elite heavy CC units and AV12 vehicles in an edition that hammered the crap out of those things certainly didn't help.

But just because other armies got better doesn't mean we got worse

Just because every top man high jumper suddenly does 5+m and I do 4,80max , doesn't mean I got worse. The codex is only carried by the helldrake and nothing else , and the helldrake isn't even that good. the wining lists can mostly ignore it or kill it very fast . But it does kill stuff like bikes or foot meq out of transports and all those old armies that GW didn't make in 6th .

When I started playing in 5th ed , chaos was far from being the best army , but it was strong up until GK came up . CSM right now are in a worse position then chaos was when GK came out and we still didn't have a new IG and SW codex , and if nids are going to be realy good , what are those helldrakes going to do against MC that ignore helldrakes and have ways to spawn more troops , if a helldrake burns some off the table.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The 6E book is probably stronger, but lacks some operational methods available to the previous book that are sorely missed. My previous army was built on running rhino's full of troops and Icons up, having the reserves (Oblits and Combi-termi's) come in on the icons for no DS scatter, and clear the way for the CSM's in the Rhino's, but alas, those tools are no longer available.

The current book would have been really strong in 5th, Forgefiends would have been absolutely brutal, in many ways it feels like it was a 5E designed book, and I think that's part of it's problem. Introducing a whole bunch of elite heavy CC units and AV12 vehicles in an edition that hammered the crap out of those things certainly didn't help.

Well it wouldn't be the first time a codex was late released for an edition it fit for.

Or early to the point where it ended up worthless because it was built for rules no longer in the rulebook...

It's like they write it early, and then they don't double check things to make sure it's actually worthwhile..And yet people still say there's serious playtesting going on

I think the people complaining about the 6e codex are the ones who aren't playing it to it's strengths. Heldrakes aren't the only good unit on the codex. Blastmaster Noise Marines are amazing, as is the AoBF Juggerlord, MoN Obliterators, Nurgle Spawn, Nurgle Bikers, etc. That being said, there are some really useless crap in the book. The main problem with the CSM codex is the amount of cheap, high str, low ap weapons everyone else is getting these days.

jitactical wrote:
I think the people complaining about the 6e codex are the ones who aren't playing it to it's strengths. Heldrakes aren't the only good unit on the codex. Blastmaster Noise Marines are amazing, as is the AoBF Juggerlord, MoN Obliterators, Nurgle Spawn, Nurgle Bikers, etc. That being said, there are some really useless crap in the book. The main problem with the CSM codex is the amount of cheap, high str, low ap weapons everyone else is getting these days.

Yes, I've found that to be a problem in my meta.

I have to take serious allies in order to not get rofl-stomped these days.

jitactical wrote:
I think the people complaining about the 6e codex are the ones who aren't playing it to it's strengths. Heldrakes aren't the only good unit on the codex. Blastmaster Noise Marines are amazing, as is the AoBF Juggerlord, MoN Obliterators, Nurgle Spawn, Nurgle Bikers, etc. That being said, there are some really useless crap in the book. The main problem with the CSM codex is the amount of cheap, high str, low ap weapons everyone else is getting these days.

So the best thing in the old codex was Nurgle marines and Slaanesh Daemon Princes. In this codex (aside from Heldrake), you're telling me it's: Khorne Lord (which I don't agree with), Slaanesh Marines, Nurgle, Nurgle, Nurgle. Such an improvement...

-Shrike- wrote:

jitactical wrote:
I think the people complaining about the 6e codex are the ones who aren't playing it to it's strengths. Heldrakes aren't the only good unit on the codex. Blastmaster Noise Marines are amazing, as is the AoBF Juggerlord, MoN Obliterators, Nurgle Spawn, Nurgle Bikers, etc. That being said, there are some really useless crap in the book. The main problem with the CSM codex is the amount of cheap, high str, low ap weapons everyone else is getting these days.

So the best thing in the old codex was Nurgle marines and Slaanesh Daemon Princes. In this codex (aside from Heldrake), you're telling me it's: Khorne Lord (which I don't agree with), Slaanesh Marines, Nurgle, Nurgle, Nurgle. Such an improvement...

Actually last Ed was:

Any Daemon Princes (though Slaanesh was arguably the best)
PM's
CSM with marks/icons
Defilers

Now it's:
Heldrake (but gets raped by Tau/AA savvy allies)
PM's (to a lesser extent than last ed, due to the FnP drop).

And then codex creep shat on those options and left us for dead.

jitactical wrote:
I think the people complaining about the 6e codex are the ones who aren't playing it to it's strengths. Heldrakes aren't the only good unit on the codex. Blastmaster Noise Marines are amazing, as is the AoBF Juggerlord, MoN Obliterators, Nurgle Spawn, Nurgle Bikers, etc. That being said, there are some really useless crap in the book. The main problem with the CSM codex is the amount of cheap, high str, low ap weapons everyone else is getting these days.

If you're having to run a list that makes no sense fluffwise (Khornate lord, Slaansh troops, Nurgle fast attack and Heavy Support) and fits almost none of the Legion profiles, there's a problem. I've been playing CSM's for years, through multiple editions, and I own zero of the mentioned units there (well..I own oblits, I guess that may count, but they're not really Nurgly in any way), and that's sort of a problem.

Stormravens kill Heldrakes as well. Stormravens got better via loyalists getting better.

Martel732 wrote:
Stormravens kill Heldrakes as well. Stormravens got better via loyalists getting better.

storm ravens are more expensive then helldrakes and aren't nesscarily BETTER

They're better than they were.

The problem is that the codex when it came out was passable but underwhelming. Now with codex creep its becoming laughable. Its like the entire meta of 6th was designed to kick Chaos Marines in the junk. Also, half of the codex being useless certainly doesn't help. So, unless you have Nurgle McNurgleson on his Nurgle mount of Nurgle with his Nurgle blade of Nurgle, chances are you're going to get stomped.

That not a good way to run a game or sell models. GW needs to rethink their strategy.

 Selym wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:

jitactical wrote:
I think the people complaining about the 6e codex are the ones who aren't playing it to it's strengths. Heldrakes aren't the only good unit on the codex. Blastmaster Noise Marines are amazing, as is the AoBF Juggerlord, MoN Obliterators, Nurgle Spawn, Nurgle Bikers, etc. That being said, there are some really useless crap in the book. The main problem with the CSM codex is the amount of cheap, high str, low ap weapons everyone else is getting these days.

So the best thing in the old codex was Nurgle marines and Slaanesh Daemon Princes. In this codex (aside from Heldrake), you're telling me it's: Khorne Lord (which I don't agree with), Slaanesh Marines, Nurgle, Nurgle, Nurgle. Such an improvement...

Actually last Ed was:

Any Daemon Princes (though Slaanesh was arguably the best)
PM's
CSM with marks/icons
Defilers

Now it's:
Heldrake (but gets raped by Tau/AA savvy allies)
PM's (to a lesser extent than last ed, due to the FnP drop).

And then codex creep shat on those options and left us for dead.

Actually you didn't really want old CSM with marks/icons, it really was just PM's, also nobody took defilers, they still only took obliterators.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:

jitactical wrote:
I think the people complaining about the 6e codex are the ones who aren't playing it to it's strengths. Heldrakes aren't the only good unit on the codex. Blastmaster Noise Marines are amazing, as is the AoBF Juggerlord, MoN Obliterators, Nurgle Spawn, Nurgle Bikers, etc. That being said, there are some really useless crap in the book. The main problem with the CSM codex is the amount of cheap, high str, low ap weapons everyone else is getting these days.

So the best thing in the old codex was Nurgle marines and Slaanesh Daemon Princes. In this codex (aside from Heldrake), you're telling me it's: Khorne Lord (which I don't agree with), Slaanesh Marines, Nurgle, Nurgle, Nurgle. Such an improvement...

Actually last Ed was:

Any Daemon Princes (though Slaanesh was arguably the best)
PM's
CSM with marks/icons
Defilers

Now it's:
Heldrake (but gets raped by Tau/AA savvy allies)
PM's (to a lesser extent than last ed, due to the FnP drop).

And then codex creep shat on those options and left us for dead.

Actually you didn't really want old CSM with marks/icons, it really was just PM's, also nobody took defilers, they still only took obliterators.

Huh. YMMV.
*Your Meta May Vary

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, unless you have Nurgle McNurgleson on his Nurgle mount of Nurgle with his Nurgle blade of Nurgle, chances are you're going to get stomped.

Perfect!

6th is stronger, but not strong

For me it goes like this:
6th edition using Heldrakes: stronger.
6th edition not using Heldrakes: weaker.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
also nobody took defilers, they still only took obliterators.

I saw some Defilers, usually in pairs. There were many arguments about modelling them like Slaughterfiends (scorpion shaped) to gain cover.

They were 150 pts. Not as popular as oblits, but not the "never take" unit they are now.

I miss my summoned lesser and greater demons.
Now I have to bring allies for demons.

I miss having icons on all of my units for deepstriking.
Now we have the stupid key.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
I miss my summoned lesser and greater demons.
Now I have to bring allies for demons.

I miss having icons on all of my units for deepstriking.
Now we have the stupid key.

Pretty much this.

I think it's better but it certainly missed a few tricks.