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So I'm looking into making a dark eldar beastpack with Baron Sarothnyx, probably 5 Khymerae with 6 Razorwing flocks and fearless seems to be a very valuable investment, considering ill be taking a lot of wound with t3 5w models and getting swept would be rough. I'm going to list cost in term relative to an un-upgraded farseer (if this breaks dakka rules I'll change it.)

I've found a few options which get Fearless for the squad;

Asdrubael Vect (2.4 Farseers)

Everyones favorite lord of Commorragh, comes with a lot of bonuses and a steep price.

Gives the squad another beatstick model which is of dubious worth, as slaughtering a unit leaves you open to return fire from the rest of the army and as you already have hit and run from baron you dont even need to fully kill a squad in 2 turns.
Is very efficient at killing MC's with a 3+ like Wraithknights, which synergizes well with the rending flocks and tarpit aspect of the squad.
4+ to seize is great especially with Dark eldar.
Preferred enemy for the squad works very well.
Slow, 6" movement really drops the utility of the squad.

Overall I think Vect isn't worth it unless you really don't want allies or find a need to seize on a 4+ and are okay with a slow beastpack.

Haemonculi + Wracks (Minimum 1.3 Farseers)

This setup relies on some unit shuffling and if you don't get first turn could be punished badly, It uses 2 Haemonculi and a squad of wracks. You join Baron to the squad of wracks and the 2 Haemonculi to the beastpack in deployment, you then jump Baron off the wracks (taking their pain token) and join him to the Beastpack while the Haemonculi leave to join a different squad (leaving their pain tokens behind as well, probably 1 joining the wrack squad and another joining wyches or more wracks). This setup gives the Beastmasters and Baron FNP Furious Charge and Fearless (fearless confers to the squad) for a pretty cheap price while also adding to the rest of your army. The problem is the shuffling leave you a little vulnerable first turn (Funny how vect would make this shuffling pretty much fullproof) Honestly this seems the most efficient way if you plan to stay within the DE book, but forces you to use up your other HQ slot.

Now its time to look at our prude friends the eldar, I won't list all of them as there are a lot and some seem obviously inferior to others.

Karandras (2.3 Farseers)

The striking scorpion Phoenix lord gives several things to the unit. First assuming how the rule is taken at where you play he may confer infiltrate to the squad (please don't turn this into a YMDC thread, if you don't think he can confer it then just leave it at that) Whilst also giving good manster hunting abilities an AP2 weapon at initiative. The problems are his cost and the fact that he will likely be a little too efficient at killing the target leaving you vulnerable to shooting next turn. And assuming you get first turn you can still only at best charge turn 2 due to infiltrates rules (likely only a turn 2 charge if you go second as well unless your opponent messed up) Overall I think there are better choices.

Baharroth (~2 farseers)

In terms of Phoenix lords Baharroth seems to be the best fit, Jump means he wont slow the squad down, hes cheaper than karandas, the problem is you're paying for a lot of things you already get, you already have Hit and run, you cant use deep strike or any of his shenanigans that come from it. Overally I would rate him as the second best CC character for the Beastpack.

Autarch W/ Shard Jetbike Banshee Mask (1.3 Farseers)

If you want to add a CC Model to the beastpack this seems the most efficient way to do so, you get fearless and a model which anyone without eternal warrior would be terrified to challenge, whist also lowering the enemy squads I by 5 ensuring that you will get to hit first, Haywire grenades help The razorwings take down vehicles which is something which could be a problem being S3 even with rending. If you have some extra points feel free to throw a gun on him. Overall he is in my top 2 for a squad addition (still haven't chosen a favorite)

Farseer W/ Shard Jetbike ( ~1.6 Farseers) Add spirit stones if you wish

This is my other favorite choice for the beastpack. He grants fearless and has the ability to choose his powers based on the enemy you are facing, Rolling telepathy if there's a strong unit you aren't sure you can beat in a fair fight in the hope of killing it with shriek while hoping for invisibility or Hallucination (if you plan to roll telepathy I recommend Spirit stones). Divination lets your squad re-roll hits (yes even in CC), Forewarning allows the unit to tarpit even better (if you're lucky and get fortune expect to see that unit survive all game) Misfortune is great if you're charging a tough to kill unit or something with a good invul. Runes of fate allow you to twin link a unit like a ravager or large warrior squad, or re roll wounds with Doom (love this with rending) Fortune to combine with barons 2++ for a 1/36 chance to fail his invul save and mind war for the same reason you would take shriek, there's a unit you don't see any other more efficient way of killing.

After writing this im leaning more towards the Farseer but the Autarch has some serious benefits as well.

Let me know what you think would be the best way to run it or if i missed something, maybe its best to leave them nice and simple with Baron and I'm worrying to much about losing combat.

The simple answer is that the shardseer is probably the most cost efficient answer to your question.

A slightly more complex answer is Vect/karandras and a seer without the shard is better, but may depend on your list.

A much more complicated answer is that you really dont need Baron at all.

You can follow the Vect thread here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/562405.page

OrdoSean wrote:
The simple answer is that the shardseer is probably the most cost efficient answer to your question.

A slightly more complex answer is Vect/karandras and a seer without the shard is better, but may depend on your list.

A much more complicated answer is that you really dont need Baron at all.

You can follow the Vect thread here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/562405.page

Vect karandras seems like absurd overkill, you're putting ~6-700 points into one unit with majority t3 which cant handle real beatstick cc units while being overkill for anything else, I can see running a beastpack without baron if you go for example 2 Masters and 4 Flocks 84 points for 22 wounds and 24 attacks, but in a large unit you need those beasts to get grenades and hit and run+stealth and shrouded for ~100 points and with a +1 to the roll off seems like a bad decision.

You missed something about baharroth. His weapon has the Blind special rule, and he is I7. You swing with this mofo, might blind the squad, then the rest of your beasts hit on 3s. And he gives the squad fearless, and hit and run.

Who needs the Baron? :-)

The Baron also gives the unit Offensive and Defensive grenades. I like the Khymerae a lot but found canny opponents can really exploit the Razorwings. They have a place but I would only take 2 for wound soles and an occasional rend.

Basically you need Hit and Run Fearless and Grenades. Other stuff probably not mandatory for it to be successful.

Yeah sorry lazy typing. By Vect/Karandras I really meant vect or karandras along with a seer.

Though technically speaking I have run them both together too... and there really isnt anything out there they cant beat in close combat together. I mean if you can create a close combat squad that vect/karandras/ and a full beast pack cant beat Id be pretty surpised.



Im not denying that the baron is good. He comes with a lot of rules that do benefit a beast pack. But in my experience when it comes down to points costs and building my lists he becomes a casualty.

Mainly this occurred when I switched from dark eldar base to eldar base. With only one dark eldar hq slot I had to choose between Vect and the Baron, and there really is no comparison between the 2 of them, as there shouldnt be, Vect costs more then twice the baron so it stands to reason that he is better. For the last tournament I went to I had Vect and 2 farseers, now that easily could be ported to Vect, baron, and a farseer. But I think more versatility and support is gained from the double farseers in that scenario then the baron, a fortuned and invisible beast pack cares not for grenades. Also by being eldar base I was able to flank my beast squad with 2 wraithknights instead of only one.

But again like I said it depends on your list. If its just a part of your list the shard seer is the cheapest option that both gets you the fearless and offers you some powers to buff your army.

OrdoSean wrote:
Yeah sorry lazy typing. By Vect/Karandras I really meant vect or karandras along with a seer.

Though technically speaking I have run them both together too... and there really isnt anything out there they cant beat in close combat together. I mean if you can create a close combat squad that vect/karandras/ and a full beast pack cant beat Id be pretty surpised.



Im not denying that the baron is good. He comes with a lot of rules that do benefit a beast pack. But in my experience when it comes down to points costs and building my lists he becomes a casualty.

Mainly this occurred when I switched from dark eldar base to eldar base. With only one dark eldar hq slot I had to choose between Vect and the Baron, and there really is no comparison between the 2 of them, as there shouldnt be, Vect costs more then twice the baron so it stands to reason that he is better. For the last tournament I went to I had Vect and 2 farseers, now that easily could be ported to Vect, baron, and a farseer. But I think more versatility and support is gained from the double farseers in that scenario then the baron, a fortuned and invisible beast pack cares not for grenades. Also by being eldar base I was able to flank my beast squad with 2 wraithknights instead of only one.

But again like I said it depends on your list. If its just a part of your list the shard seer is the cheapest option that both gets you the fearless and offers you some powers to buff your army.

Equivalent points of TH/SS should slaughter vect+karandas and entourage, of course in a situation like that you follow the mantra if i cant beat it to death then shoot it to death and it shouldnt be to much of a problem drowning them in saves from splinter cannons. And while Vect is better than Baron then question really should be is Vect better than for example Baron and a ravager or baron and 6 razorwing flocks, and in both of those cases i would have to say no. I have trouble finding a HQ that can compete with Baron on a return of investment basis apart from maybe Coteaz, Celestine before her nerf or MAYBE a Farseer.

I choose simple cheap HQs so my choice is usually self-limited to:

Baron - keeps up with unit, ignores dangerous terrain, 2++ I'm a jerk save (I think it's funny), hit and run, decent melee ability and the big one, Dual-Purpose Grenades!
...but no Fearless or Psychic skillz

Farseer (Shard of Anaris mandatory) - I always use one anyway regardless if Eldar are the main or the allies, keeps up with unit, more wounds, decent melee ability, Fearless and the big one, Psychic Buffnerating!
...but no Hit and Run or Grenades

For those who suggested Invisble, I generally don't run Telepathy or rely on getting Non-Primaris powers anyway. Already too much random in the game anyway :p don't need to base a list off of me ...maybe... getting a psychic power. I plan for Guide, Prescience and, the rest is bonus.

Jakobokaj wrote:


Equivalent points of TH/SS should slaughter vect+karandas and entourage.

Thats some simple math.

Vect + Karandras + Beasts(10 kymerra, 6 razorwings, 5 masters) = 740pts

740pts = 16.5 terminators, round it up to 17. All th/ss because thats what you said.

Beasts get charge most likely, lets say through terrain too because it hurts them more without Baron. Also disordered charge means no bonus attacks.

Round 1 of Combat
i8: Vect: 6 attacks. 4.62 hits. 3.5 wounds. .57 dead terminators.
i7: Karandras: 5 attacks. 3.8 hits. 3.68 wounds. 1.21 dead terminators.
i1:16 terminators. 32 attacks. 16 hits. 13 wounds. 5 dead beast masters, 4 dead kymerra.
10 Kymerra: 30 attacks. 17.5 hits. 10.19 wounds. 1.61 dead terminators.
5 beast masters: 5 attacks. 2.91 hits. 1 wound. .16 dead terminators.
6 Razorwing flocks: 30 attacks. 17.5 hits. 3.2 rends, 3.2 regular. 1.54 dead terminators.

so 5 total dead terminators. 5 dead beast masters, 4 dead kymerra.

Round 2 of Combat
i8: Vect: 6 attacks. 4.62 hits. 3.5 wounds. .57 dead terminators.
i7: Karandras: 5 attacks. 3.8 hits. 3.68 wounds. 1.21 dead terminators.
i6: 6 Kymerra: 18 attacks. 10.45 hits. 6.06 wounds. 1 dead terminators.
i5: 6 Razorwing flocks: 30 attacks. 17.5 hits. 3.2 rends, 3.2 regular. 1.54 dead terminators.
(4.32 more dead terminators)
i1: 8 terminators: 16 attacks. 8 hits. 6.56 wounds. 3.28 dead kymerra.

9 total dead terminators. 5 dead beast masters, 8 dead kymerra.

Round 3 of Combat
i8: Vect: 6 attacks. 4.62 hits. 3.5 wounds. .57 dead terminators.
i7: Karandras: 5 attacks. 3.8 hits. 3.68 wounds. 1.21 dead terminators.
i6: 2 Kymerra: 6 attacks. 3.5 hits. 2 wounds. .32 dead terminators.
i5: 6 Razorwing flocks: 30 attacks. 17.5 hits. 3.2 rends, 3.2 regular. 1.54 dead terminators.
(3.64 more dead terminators)
i1: 5 terminators. 10 attacks. 5 hits. 4.1 wounds. 2 dead kymerra, 1 wound to karandras lets say.

12 dead terminators. 5 dead beast masters, 10 dead kymerra.

Round 4 of Combat
i8: Vect: 6 attacks. 4.62 hits. 3.5 wounds. .57 dead terminators.
i7: Karandras: 5 attacks. 3.8 hits. 3.68 wounds. 1.21 dead terminators.
i5: 6 Razorwing flocks: 30 attacks. 17.5 hits. 3.2 rends, 3.2 regular. 1.54 dead terminators.
(3.2 more dead terminators)
i1: 2 terminators: 4 attacks. 2 hits. 1.65 wounds. 2 dead razorwing flocks.

Round 5 of combat
i8: Vect: 6 attacks. 4.62 hits. 3.5 wounds. .57 dead terminators.
i7: Karandras: 5 attacks. 3.8 hits. 3.68 wounds. 1.21 dead terminators.
i5: 4 Razorwing Flocks: 20 attacks. 11.65 hits. 2 rends, 2 regular wounds. 1 dead terminator.

Combat ends.

So yeah the beast squad gets pretty much devastated by an equal cost in terminators... but the characters are largely untouched and the beasts win in the end. Push it to 20 terminators and the combat goes the other way, with Vect likely needing to pass around 5--7 straight saves in the last round or 2 of combat to keep karandras alive and killing. But drop it to a few less terminators and a character and it quickly becomes easier for the beasts.

To me there isnt a much better combat unit in the game then the beast pack. And the list of characters that Eldar/Dark eldar have to support it is staggering. That there is no clear distinction on who is best to join it and which combo is best clearly shows a wealth of options available. Heck I change the combos from tournament to tournament. With the new eldar codex and the shard of anaris option Im finally contemplating a second beast pack. I feel that fearless is the single most important feature for the pack, and that this option wasnt available to a dark eldar based army that still wanted to include a farseer for full support.

autopilot wrote:
You missed something about baharroth. His weapon has the Blind special rule, and he is I7. You swing with this mofo, might blind the squad, then the rest of your beasts hit on 3s. And he gives the squad fearless, and hit and run.

Who needs the Baron? :-)

Offensive Grenades, Defensive Grenades, Stealth, 2++, +1 to go first, bunch of str6 hits, fearless with enough pain tokens, AND Hit and Run(even if you already have it, why not double up). All on a character that can move 12"(and thus be anywhere in the unit to play wound allocation shenanigans)

All that for a little more than 100 points. Why not Baron?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RancidHate wrote:

Baron - keeps up with unit, ignores dangerous terrain, 2++ I'm a jerk save (I think it's funny), hit and run, decent melee ability and the big one, Dual-Purpose Grenades!
...but no Fearless or Psychic skillz

Pain tokens make him fearless. This unit will hopefully get pain tokens gallore. FNP and FC arent great, but they are nice (when baron is striking at str7!)

I might be playing my Dark Eldar allies wrong and there are certain unit combos I don't have but, in like the 20 some plus matches I've used them, no unit has ever gotten 3 pain tokens. The most I've ever gotten was 2 when a BeastPack killed a Marine squad and it's Captain. Got every gun pointed their way next turn. I still won the match, so I guess you could argue that BeastPack efficiently got rid of the advancing threat and took all the fire so my Eldar could run shoot at mostly full strength.

 RancidHate wrote:
I might be playing my Dark Eldar allies wrong and there are certain unit combos I don't have but, in like the 20 some plus matches I've used them, no unit has ever gotten 3 pain tokens. The most I've ever gotten was 2 when a BeastPack killed a Marine squad and it's Captain. Got every gun pointed their way next turn. I still won the match, so I guess you could argue that BeastPack efficiently got rid of the advancing threat and took all the fire so my Eldar could run shoot at mostly full strength.

when they arent allies you can easily get 3 by exploiting starting pain tokens.

Already taking Baron and the Beastpack

Take a Haemi and 3 Wracks for 80 points.

Start the baron with the wracks and the haemi with the beastpack.

First turn take hami out of the beastpack leaving his paintoken there and baron and move him into the beastpack brinigng a pain token with him. Wracks hang back and are scoring T4 unit. Haemi goes off and flames stuff. Beastpack goes off and wrecks stuff already having 2 pain tokens for FNP and FC. One kill and they are fearless.

 Exergy wrote:

 RancidHate wrote:
I might be playing my Dark Eldar allies wrong and there are certain unit combos I don't have but, in like the 20 some plus matches I've used them, no unit has ever gotten 3 pain tokens. The most I've ever gotten was 2 when a BeastPack killed a Marine squad and it's Captain. Got every gun pointed their way next turn. I still won the match, so I guess you could argue that BeastPack efficiently got rid of the advancing threat and took all the fire so my Eldar could run shoot at mostly full strength.

when they arent allies you can easily get 3 by exploiting starting pain tokens.

Already taking Baron and the Beastpack

Take a Haemi and 3 Wracks for 80 points.

Start the baron with the wracks and the haemi with the beastpack.

First turn take hami out of the beastpack leaving his paintoken there and baron and move him into the beastpack brinigng a pain token with him. Wracks hang back and are scoring T4 unit. Haemi goes off and flames stuff. Beastpack goes off and wrecks stuff already having 2 pain tokens for FNP and FC. One kill and they are fearless.

All of that is listed in the OP and they can easily start with 3 as I explained.

My thoughts on the unit are if you want it to be a slaugter macing take an autarch with Shard of anaris and Banshee mask so you always hit frist alongside baron for his goodies, or if you want to have the ability to buff the rest of your army/the beastpack then take a farseer on a bike with shard. Either way the shard seems to be the most efficient way to get fearless for the beastpack.