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 More Dakka wrote:
Exterminators aren't very good for the points you are paying. They can sort of do anti-air, but not well.

There are much more cost effective ways to get autocannons into your army.

Use the LR chassis to bring things that the rest of the army cannot, like S10 AP2 pie plates, S7 AP2 with no gets hot, and S8 AP3 pie plates with 72" range.

I didn't take any dedicated AA at my last tournament and I was fine, flyers are not as heavily played anymore since Tau came out.

Really though, 9 Leman Russ tanks isn't a competitive build, I am just trying to give you options to make it at least playable.

Honestly I hadnt really thought about it that way, I guess it is obvious to use HWT if you want to have autocannons, and bring it down will give it the same effect.

I really do appreciate the comments, it is making me think about the build in ways I normally wouldn't.

Frankly i love it when my enemy brings really tank heavy lists to a game. I feel i can relax all of a sudden because i find them easy to wipe off the board. Especially with my eldar as a large part of my force can be behind you glancing squads of tanks to death. My friend tried using a list a lot like yours in the OP and had very little success. Infantry is backed by tanks is the way to go in my opinion and experience.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Frankly i love it when my enemy brings really tank heavy lists to a game. I feel i can relax all of a sudden because i find them easy to wipe off the board. Especially with my eldar as a large part of my force can be behind you glancing squads of tanks to death. My friend tried using a list a lot like yours in the OP and had very little success. Infantry is backed by tanks is the way to go in my opinion and experience.

Yes, nothing says "hello" like the IG meatgrinder being rammed down your throat as ordinance blasts your high-value units into oblivion <3

Haha but in squads they can, at best kill 3 units a turn. Especially with warp spiders and shadow spectres in play. On the other hand i have a friend who has a necron warrior horde with a few monoliths and one barge, now thats hard to kill because i cant ignore the infantry. Tanks drop like flies oddly enough.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Haha but in squads they can, at best kill 3 units a turn. Especially with warp spiders and shadow spectres in play. On the other hand i have a friend who has a necron warrior horde with a few monoliths and one barge, now thats hard to kill because i cant ignore the infantry. Tanks drop like flies oddly enough.

Bear in mind, though that three units per turn can turn into a whopping 15 unit in 5 turns, should you be so unlucky.

On the subject of crons, they are a pain in the ass. A gauss flayer is potentially the most useful weapon in the game, able to kill tanks [when used] en masse, and very capable of killing infantry.
And is cheap, and mounted on a respawning warrior.

Yes its main weapon is very troubling. I find them the hardest force to kil overall.

Lucky for him, he will not be dealing with any FW units.

Personally, if I was going to run a 9 Russ list, I would have two options. The first is to use plain naked Vanquishers. The main gun is big enough to be above a ADL, you have 9 shots that are long range and actually use your BS 3 to give you a 50% chance to hit. Any blast marker weapon uses the scatter dice to hit and thus has a 33% chance to hit. Since there is nothing on a Russ to give it Barrage, your always shooting against the AV that is facing you, even if you scatter. For other Russes or Ork Battle Wagons, that makes it harder to Pen, even if you do have a high Str and are rolling two dice taking the highest. Vanquishers don't have this problem and make it /really/ tempting to use hull mounted Lascannons. 9 Vanquishers are 1395pts, which if he was a 1850pt list would give him 455pts for a ADL, HQ, and troops.

The other option I think would work is a attacking list with 9 Demolishers with maybe 2-3 Eradicators mixed in to kill things in cover. 9 Demolishers are 1440pts, but if you mix in one Eradicator in each unit, it will cost you 1425pts. Either way, super expensive and leaving you with maybe 400-425pts to spend on HQ and troops. At least your saving points by ditching the ADL.

As for troops and HQ, your looking at 2 real options because Leadership is such a concern. Lord Commissars or a CCS. What you pick is based off of what kind of troops you want and what you want the troops to do. Through a Primus Psyker (or two) could be an interesting option offensively or defensively due to his powers. Remember that you can also grab 0-2 Tech Priests at 45pts each to attempt to fix tanks, and since your based off of tanks, this might be a real important option.

A CCS would need a Regimental Banner to give a 12" bubble for Ld re-rolls and if attacking 3 special weapons, but if defending a heavy weapon and maybe a special weapon if you can afford it. Camo Cloaks are now also an option for the bonus to cover saves. Orders can be very valuable, like 'Fire on my Target!' to ignore cover saves and 'Bring it Down!' to make weapons Twin Linked for impromptu AA guns out of your ACs. Or to kill what you would normally want to kill with this Order (since it has to be MCs and Vehicles/Walkers).

If you pick a Lord Commissar (or two), just buy him a Camo Cloak, Power Axe/Maul, and Melta bomb and put him in your blobs. He is a great choice to man a ADL gun with his BS 5 (you can look at the Icarus then to save some points) and if you run heavy weapon squads keep one within 6" of him to make use of his Aura of Discipline to be Ld 10.

If you run a Platoon, I suggest making them a blob. I would keep one naked Sergeant back by the Lord to take an Execution (or for challenges) and give the other a Power Axe and Melta bomb. If you not running a Lord Commissar in your blobs, consider a normal Commissar due to the Ld boost and Stubborn SR.

Look at ACs or even mortars for heavy weapons (if your camping). For special weapons I would suggest flamers, meltas, or even Grenade Launchers (I feel dirty for even suggesting them). The point is to keep your special/heavy weapons cheap. If your attacking, the AC can still make snap fire shots, but otherwise you looking at ditching the heavy weapon.

Remember a PCS can give up their lasguns for a CCW+Pistol (the only IG unit able to do this). Get a Banner and use this as a charge unit to bust a blob out of CC (14-15 attacks can be a big swing). Otherwise they are a great unit to put 4x Sniper Rifles (or 2x Snipers and a AC) or 4x Flamers on, depending if your camping or attacking.

I think Vets would be an interesting choice and possible cheaper, depending on their load-out. 3x Sniper Rifles and a AC is 95pts. With the BS 4, I would consider plasmas and meltas over flamers and meltas. For cheap and if your attacking, GLs are not a terrible choice, but if your camping I think the Sniper Rifle is the better choice (specially if you get a Pinning). Obviously these guys could be really kitted out with Doctrines and weapons to make the best use of their BS and multiple special weapons. Forward Sentries on a camping Vets squad is hard to pass up.

Hope this helps or gives you some ideas!

I could bring 3x battlewagons with ork boyz and a pk nob for less than 1k and probably wreck most of the russes even though they cost atleast 650 points more (and that if the IG player takes no troops). The biggest problem is anything that wont deploy everything across from you (so flyers, FMCs, Outflankers, scouting units, DS) and anything that can get close fast (bikes, skimmers, some jump infantry if they have LOS, beasts).


Not to mention you cant score worth a damn.

If you give the Lord Commissar a Camo Cloak, can't he be focus fired out of a squad in cover but in LOS since his save will be different?

General Hobbs wrote:


If you give the Lord Commissar a Camo Cloak, can't he be focus fired out of a squad in cover but in LOS since his save will be different?

I was going to say no, that the Camo cloak gives the whole unit +1 cover save through Stealth, but they FAQed to to +1 cover save. So yeah, if you would put him in a squad don't bother with the cloak.

Get 6 Leman Russ tanks (3x2) and you can make a reasonable army, focused on heavy armour.

Then I would suggest conscripts or spamming IS that are cheaply equipped.

I'm using the DA librarian (that was mentioned on page 1) and a Techmarine with PFG to follow my 2 tanks. 4+ on AV14 is awesome and makes for a strong fire magnet.



There is a squad of 10 guys and the librarian behind that tank.



Putting the Librarian/Techmarine right behind the tank should block LOS barring barrage, but then you have a 2+ LOS and a 4+ invul. I recomend getting a scout squad with camo cloaks to sit in a bolstered ruin with a 2+ save (you should put an objective there) Also bonus, prescience on a punisher or vanquisher or your choice of tank. Just my two cents.

 BlkTom wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


If you give the Lord Commissar a Camo Cloak, can't he be focus fired out of a squad in cover but in LOS since his save will be different?

I was going to say no, that the Camo cloak gives the whole unit +1 cover save through Stealth, but they FAQed to to +1 cover save. So yeah, if you would put him in a squad don't bother with the cloak.

Not quite. You can only focus fire at units with worse armor saves. In this circumstance, focus fire would only allow you to avoid hitting the commissar. If you intended him to tank wounds, this would be bad, but that'd be rather poor use of a commissar.

Personally, if I was going to run a 9 Russ list, I would have two options. The first is to use plain naked Vanquishers. The main gun is big enough to be above a ADL, you have 9 shots that are long range and actually use your BS 3 to give you a 50% chance to hit. Any blast marker weapon uses the scatter dice to hit and thus has a 33% chance to hit. Since there is nothing on a Russ to give it Barrage, your always shooting against the AV that is facing you, even if you scatter. For other Russes or Ork Battle Wagons, that makes it harder to Pen, even if you do have a high Str and are rolling two dice taking the highest. Vanquishers don't have this problem and make it /really/ tempting to use hull mounted Lascannons. 9 Vanquishers are 1395pts, which if he was a 1850pt list would give him 455pts for a ADL, HQ, and troops.

Interesting assessment. Obviously adding Lascannons would push the vanquisher price to unreasonable levels. I also am concerned that at that point, I start having a hard time killing regular troops. I don't think 9 vanquishers are the option. maybe 3 are feasable though.

The other option I think would work is a attacking list with 9 Demolishers with maybe 2-3 Eradicators mixed in to kill things in cover. 9 Demolishers are 1440pts, but if you mix in one Eradicator in each unit, it will cost you 1425pts. Either way, super expensive and leaving you with maybe 400-425pts to spend on HQ and troops. At least your saving points by ditching the ADL.

I agree that demolishers are clearly the workhorse of the Russ tank, but then you get into a range problem, Obviously i will still be outshot by Tau and the like, but I think any system where you have all 9 of one style will be problematic. And what about anti air? I need at least some way to deal with that, one icarus lascannon is not the answer either.

As for troops and HQ, your looking at 2 real options because Leadership is such a concern. Lord Commissars or a CCS. What you pick is based off of what kind of troops you want and what you want the troops to do. Through a Primus Psyker (or two) could be an interesting option offensively or defensively due to his powers. Remember that you can also grab 0-2 Tech Priests at 45pts each to attempt to fix tanks, and since your based off of tanks, this might be a real important option.

Yup, lord commissar is the way to go I think. I fiddled around with potentially a CCS with regimental dudes that might slow reserves or add another pie plate, but that becomes prohibitively expensive. Tech priests with servitors are on my list, you got to be able to fix those imobilized results!!!

I could bring 3x battlewagons with ork boyz and a pk nob for less than 1k and probably wreck most of the russes even though they cost atleast 650 points more (and that if the IG player takes no troops). The biggest problem is anything that wont deploy everything across from you (so flyers, FMCs, Outflankers, scouting units, DS) and anything that can get close fast (bikes, skimmers, some jump infantry if they have LOS, beasts).


Not to mention you cant score worth a damn.

This is going to come out meaner than intended. Why would I even consider building a force to counter orks? their meta is not worth a whole lot right now and when I go to tournaments they are rarely played. I understand orks are cheap and I am glad you have a list you feel can deal with this. This is not a constructive comment, Lets get this straight right here, any decent player with access to a lot of models will be able to build a list that beats another. You make an ork list and I can build a list to counter it. This is not productive. Moving on.

Get 6 Leman Russ tanks (3x2) and you can make a reasonable army, focused on heavy armour.

As I have mentioned before, this is for a 9 Leman Russ list, not the viability of a 6 LR list. Thanks for the comment though.

I'm using the DA librarian (that was mentioned on page 1) and a Techmarine with PFG to follow my 2 tanks. 4+ on AV14 is awesome and makes for a strong fire magnet.

Wow, that is starting to be a lot of points just to keep one unit alive. You say its a strong fire magnet, is it viable? or does it still get shot to hell on Turn 1 every game?

Corollax wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


If you give the Lord Commissar a Camo Cloak, can't he be focus fired out of a squad in cover but in LOS since his save will be different?

I was going to say no, that the Camo cloak gives the whole unit +1 cover save through Stealth, but they FAQed to to +1 cover save. So yeah, if you would put him in a squad don't bother with the cloak.

Not quite. You can only focus fire at units with worse armor saves. In this circumstance, focus fire would only allow you to avoid hitting the commissar. If you intended him to tank wounds, this would be bad, but that'd be rather poor use of a commissar.

Ahhh, I see, and your right (pg 18 BRB). And yeah, Commissars would be bad at that.

I'm using the DA librarian (that was mentioned on page 1) and a Techmarine with PFG to follow my 2 tanks. 4+ on AV14 is awesome and makes for a strong fire magnet.

Wow, that is starting to be a lot of points just to keep one unit alive. You say its a strong fire magnet, is it viable? or does it still get shot to hell on Turn 1 every game?

Vanquishers are pretty poop overall, I would rate them below the LRBMT at this point just because the S8 AP3 does a lot of damage to things like Crisis suits and can take out masses of infantry fairly well, and also do damage to MCs and AV12 or less.

Meanwhile the Vanquisher is 50/50 to hit, then even when you do manage a pen, factoring cover saves, you still need to make a decent roll on the chart to be worthwhile.

Battle Cannons are 33% chance to hit + the 3" you subtract from a scatter, so have a good chance to do their job.

@Luke
You start mixing and matching and your not using points. If you face a Tau Gun line, 3 camping Demolishers will never shoot because they have to advance, now all you have at range is some ACs that will plink off of a Riptide all day and 3 scattering battle cannon shots. Your better off choosing a tank, and attempting to spam 9 of them and either camp or advance. And if your that scared of air power, then you shouldn't be running a 9 Russ list when there are better units that do AA better and cheaper. Your just not giving yourself good options because your paying so much for AV 14. You could try a all Exterminator list but then you need to make sure you can afford the 20pt Lascannons your list will need for AV 13+ armor. And then you will probably still need a ADL to give them cover

There is a reason why I suggest 9 of a type. Say you get 9 Vanquishers and you do a camping list with a ADL. You pick up 3 dice and roll it for each squad to fire on a target. If it has a AV value, your probably destroying it (+1 pen for AP 2). If they miss or fail, you go to the next squad and roll 3 more dice till you run out of tanks or targets. The Vanquishers are better than a lascannon due to effectively being a melta at range. Worse comes to worse if a Flyer comes on, you shoot your tanks at the flyer, but now you need 6s to hit. One out of six should hit. But your real advantage is if you have a Lord Commissar on a ADL gun and if you put ACs in your troops. Those turn into your anti aircraft defense.

As for the Demolishers, you take care of range by moving forward. On a standard table, you start 24" apart, you move 6", they have to be within 6" of their own table edge to be out of range. As for anti aircraft, again this is what your troops are for. With the Eradicators, put them up front to die first or put them in the back due to the better range. Either way their cover ignoring pie plate is something your going to need. This list struggles more with AA because your tanks are more expensive, you just have fewer points to spend.

Let me make up a 455pt list (1850pts total), since you haven't given us a point limit yet. Because these points are going to be doing a lot of heavy lifting for your list.

Lord Commissar - 75pts
Melta bomb

2x Tech priests - 90pts

Vets - 95pts
3x Sniper Rifles, AC

Vets - 95pts
3x Sniper Rifles, AC

ADL - 100pts
Quad gun

455pts

If you ran 6x Demolishers and 3x Eradicators with 425pts to spend in a attacking list, you will need troops to support them...

Lord Commissar - 75pts (goes in blob)
Power Axe, Melta bomb

PCS- 50pts
AC, 2x Sniper Rifles

PIS - 65pts (blobbed)
Power Axe, Flamer

PIS - 55pts (blobbed)
Flamer

Vets- 95pts
AC, 3x Sniper Rifles

ADL - 85pts
Icarus LC

It would be awkward but the vets stay behind the ADL to man the Icarus while the blob and Lord move up with a unit of tanks. The Vets are your AA unit and are tasked to kill MCs. Obviously you can tweak this list to suit your needs, but the obvious fact is that you have to have a HQ and troop choices to make a 9 Russ list even work. To be honest, I would choose the Vanquisher list, as it has a lot more synergy but your still very vulnerable to objective games and units in cover. The benefit of the Demolisher list is that you will ignore cover saves and your dropping pie plates all over, but your tanks can not be used for AA (well, maybe the heavy bolter) because you can not fire blast markers at flyers.

The more points you play to give you more troops the better your opponent's list will be as well, and the more your Tanks have to work. It is not as easy as having 9 tanks and expecting to dominate, because your tanks are not scoring. This is why people play with 2-3 Vendettas and walk away, because 9 TL LCs for 130pts that can also carry troops is better than any single tank. Frankly, you just can't do it all because there are better units than a Exterminator Russ for AA that are cheaper (Hydra for 75pts). Your tanks will survive, maybe not as often as you think, but you will probably lose more games than if you had a balanced list. As soon as someone figures out all they have to do to win is kill 20-40 guardsmen to beat this list, it is over. Running 9 Russes is like a Chaos player looking at running 6 Land Raiders. It just isn't worth it, so it turns into a suckers bet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 More Dakka wrote:
Vanquishers are pretty poop overall, I would rate them below the LRBMT at this point just because the S8 AP3 does a lot of damage to things like Crisis suits and can take out masses of infantry fairly well, and also do damage to MCs and AV12 or less.

Meanwhile the Vanquisher is 50/50 to hit, then even when you do manage a pen, factoring cover saves, you still need to make a decent roll on the chart to be worthwhile.

Battle Cannons are 33% chance to hit + the 3" you subtract from a scatter, so have a good chance to do their job.

And if he runs into AV 14, he is screwed.

 BlkTom wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 More Dakka wrote:
Vanquishers are pretty poop overall, I would rate them below the LRBMT at this point just because the S8 AP3 does a lot of damage to things like Crisis suits and can take out masses of infantry fairly well, and also do damage to MCs and AV12 or less.

Meanwhile the Vanquisher is 50/50 to hit, then even when you do manage a pen, factoring cover saves, you still need to make a decent roll on the chart to be worthwhile.

Battle Cannons are 33% chance to hit + the 3" you subtract from a scatter, so have a good chance to do their job.

And if he runs into AV 14, he is screwed.

I'd solve that by taking a Vanquisher with Pask and a hull Lascannon.
And then fluff it up by calling it the "command tank".

But he can't because he doesn't have the points. Thus he has to go with massed fire to give him the chance to hit. 9 Vanquishers have a legit chance of taking out 3 vehicles a turn.

 BlkTom wrote:
But he can't because he doesn't have the points. Thus he has to go with massed fire to give him the chance to hit. 9 Vanquishers have a legit chance of taking out 3 vehicles a turn.

I didn't mean for all nine LR's, just one...

...especially as you can only take Pask once...

I know. I am replacing Pask and 1 Vanq with a LC that your suggesting with massed fire. If I would have the points, LCs all the way to double up their firepower.

The OP has concerns about Flyers, and he still has to deal with AV 14 and Infantry in a 9 Russ list. He dilutes himself when he mixes in tanks with different ranges and capabilities because his Russes are so expensive. He needs them to not be terrible at everything.

If he runs Demolishers and camps, opponents can just avoid them and shoot them apart. Demolishers can not shoot flyers and cover saves kill them. The best way to use them is to attack.

Stock Russes have a weaker gun so really can't effect armor and can't effect flyers. Their best use is against infantry. This also applies to Executioners and Eradicators. These tanks hurt him the most because they do not effect 2 out of 3 of his problems.

Punishers and Exterminators can not deal with armor, but are decent against Flyers and infantry. But because of the nature of his list, he can't afford Anti-Tank LCs in his troops.

Vanquisher is the best option for him because it effects all 3 targets. It has to hit flyers on a 6 just like everything else, but it /can/ shoot at a flyer unlike 4 other Russes. And if it hits, that thing is dead. It is the best anti-armor tank because it hits more often and has a better chance to pen. And the stock heavy bolter helps it in it's weakest area, anti-Infantry.

Simple fact is, for a 9 Russ list, his best options are Vanquishers. They effect the most targets that he needs them to effect. They are far from ideal, but so is the list. It is unpractical. I also agree with you that Vanquishers in small numbers are unreliable and are not as effective as say a Vendetta or a LC HWS for cheaper points. But the OP wants a 9 Russ gun line list, so this is the best option for him that I can see.