Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I had the joy of having this lovely combo pulled on me and the rules appear to actually support it.

The wording on savage beast of horros says that it can target all characters within 12 inches. It then goes on to say that the model gains 3 atk and str. (p. 165)

The main rulebook defines a character that includes a mount as being a single model for all intent and purposes. (p. 104 for characters on mounts). Also reinforced under the cavalry rules (p. 82)


Spirit of the rule definitely sounds like only characters should be gaining this bonus. RAW however is unclear and seems to support that the mounts would be gaining this bonus as well.

this proved to be extremely devastating when I was hit by 3 high elves nobles riding great eagles that had swiftsense.

Searched the Internet for a clear answer on this and there has been nothing that I could find where anyone reached a consensus.

One could argue that the model gains 3 atk/str and no where does it say both profiles gain it (so put 3 atk/str on either profiles, but cant multiply it), but there's no rule to support that argument that I could find either.

What does everything think of the above? Has anyone seen this in any tournaments? If so how was this ruled?

a normal mount would gain the benefit as they are indeed a single model with the character.


If however the character is riding a monster, there are 2 distinct profiles and i dont think both get it.

There is no ruling that I could find either nor any FAQ
It says that it targets characters, I only played it as affecting the rider (And I'm playing Beasts Lore with a bretonnian character wall ...) but I can't say if RAW it affects the mount either

Page 104, right above the Cavalry entry does state that a character and his mount are a single model.

so basically even if your mount is a dragon, it would be affected as well per the ruling.

I play bretonnians myself. Have used the character bus many times with SBoH, but have never let my horse be affected. I am however now wondering if I have been playing this wrong.

now that I am looking at this more clearly you cast the spell and use the following sequence to activate it?

1. What is the target? Characters within 12 inches.
2. What is being affected. The model.
3. What is the model? the character and any mounts he may have.

It sounds legit albeit very beardy to pull off.

Voldrak wrote:
Page 104, right above the Cavalry entry does state that a character and his mount are a single model.

so basically even if your mount is a dragon, it would be affected as well per the ruling.

I play bretonnians myself. Have used the character bus many times with SBoH, but have never let my horse be affected. I am however now wondering if I have been playing this wrong.

now that I am looking at this more clearly you cast the spell and use the following sequence to activate it?

1. What is the target? Characters within 12 inches.
2. What is being affected. The model.
3. What is the model? the character and any mounts he may have.

It sounds legit albeit very beardy to pull off.

When are you told to use the mounts stat-line?
Is the horse a character?

-Matt

You are never told to use the character's stat line either.

The horse, eagle or which you are on is not a character. It is however part the model for all intent and purposes.

The spells says it targets characters. Once you've defined which characters are affected, the spell tells you that the model gains the bonus and in the case of a mounted character, both he and his mount are the model. They are not separate models, they are the model.

The RAI on this is obviously only character gains the benefits.

However RAW I still cannot find anything to disprove the above.

Here's a question.

The spell states that the "model" gets +3 attacks. If you give the mount and the rider both +3 attacks, then the model has actually gotten +6 attacks. How do you determine which element gets the +3 attacks in order to not end up granting the model twice the benefit granted by the spell?

I agree with Saldiven's perspective. If 'the model' is granted +3 attacks, and 'the model' is defined in this case as both the character and the mount, then it would seem that only one '+3' should be given.

Saldiven

That has been my response as well. I told my opponent the model gains +3atk/str and to put it on either profile he wanted, but that there was nothing in rule allowing him to double it.

I feel however that it is arguing semantics. There is nothing that defines how to actually threat a mounted model when it comes to SBoH and whether or not it's considered as double or if both stat lines are only just getting +3.

It remains a very unclear situation and I would love to find out how big tournaments out there are getting this ruled out.

I agree that there is no clear ruling on this one. It falls through a crack in the ridden monster rules. If you look in that section you will find multiple instances of a character on a monster being called one model and two models.

Having run a couple of tournaments I would rule that only the character gets the benefit (which is RAI as I see it).

It is tricky. Anything else which granted the model +1S would apply to both the character and the mount. The fact that the initial target is the character suggests that only they should benefit, but that is not stated in the text.
Were characters and their mounts treated as separate models when the Brets book came out? If so, seems odd that they haven't FAQed it.
I would say that it affects both mount and character.

Niteware's got this one, I think: Wildform says +1S +T. And I've never seen anyone play that as a total of +1 to S and +1 to T across all of the model's profiles. You apply the spell's effects to the model's profile. If the model has more than one profile, then awesome, I guess.

To target a model, it must be a character. But once the model is targeted, it affects the whole model, character or no.

A little odd, perhaps, but anything that gives cavalry a boost over my Slave blocks is just fine with me. 'Specially since those characters are in a smaller unit, giving me the chance to do away with those Look Out, Sir! rolls...

I will have to follow what others have said.
Only the character will get the bonus.
The spell targets the character, not the mount.
The mount is not the character.
There is nothing stating that the spell effects mounts, only characters.
Most importantly
Pg 104, under character mounts it states 'A character and his mount are treated as a single model for all rules purposes' .Therefore if you apply Savage Beasts of Horros to both stat lines you have applied the spell twice to a single model.
As others have said I can see the option of choosing which stat line you want to apply the effects to but not both.
What would give rise to the belief that you'd get to add +6attacks/str?

Quote BRB p82

"CAVALRY AND SPECIAL RULES
Unless otherwise noted, special rules that apply
to the mount do not normally also apply to the
rider, and vice versa."

The rider as the character get +3A +3Str, the mount does not gain the benefit of the special rule.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
Quote BRB p82

"CAVALRY AND SPECIAL RULES
Unless otherwise noted, special rules that apply
to the mount do not normally also apply to the
rider, and vice versa."

The rider as the character get +3A +3Str, the mount does not gain the benefit of the special rule.

Spells are special rules?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Spells are special rules?

Quote BRB p66
"Similarly a model
might get special rules as the result of a spell that
has been cast upon it "

I can go on if you would like to waste my time.

Thanks for the quote, I didn't know where that was at.

Well...hm. Is +3S +3A a "special rule", though? If that can be clarified, I'm convinced. I assumed that bit only covered things like Killing Blow and Frenzy and such.

I mean, even if it is true, it says "unless otherwise noted". Then the spell says it affects the model. And the character and the mount are considered one model.
If it said "the character gains +3S +3A", that'd be enough for me, hands-down, But it says model.

The "you can't apply the benefits twice" argument doesn't make a lick of sense to me. You could say, "hey, now you've got a total of +6S +6A, you've broken the rules". Or you could say, "you haven't applied the effects of this spell to all available aspects of the model, you've broken the rules".
If this argument is true, then Wildform works the same way.

Characters being the only ones that benefit from special rules--potentially winning argument.

Only apply the effects of a spell once to the target--doesn't look like it holds water.

Warpsolution wrote:
Well...hm. Is +3S +3A a "special rule", though? If that can be clarified, I'm convinced. I assumed that bit only covered things like Killing Blow and Frenzy and such.

I mean, even if it is true, it says "unless otherwise noted". Then the spell says it affects the model. And the character and the mount are considered one model.
If it said "the character gains +3S +3A", that'd be enough for me, hands-down, But it says model.

The "you can't apply the benefits twice" argument doesn't make a lick of sense to me. You could say, "hey, now you've got a total of +6S +6A, you've broken the rules". Or you could say, "you haven't applied the effects of this spell to all available aspects of the model, you've broken the rules".
If this argument is true, then Wildform works the same way.

Characters being the only ones that benefit from special rules--potentially winning argument.

Only apply the effects of a spell once to the target--doesn't look like it holds water.

I'm sorry I am having a little trouble following the text from this post so I apologize if I misunderstand.


First off you have answered the question already. 'The spell says it affects the model. And the......considered 1 model.' So why do you think you would get to add +3 twice to 1 model? Specifics of characters, mounts or anything else why would you apply it twice? Does that mean a single fireball gets to wound the model twice? No. It is a single model
Do you take Strength tests for the mount and the rider for Dwellers below?
Why wouldn't Wildform work the same way?
You cannot target a mount for damage why should you be able to target the model in a positive way?
You only apply the effects of every spell once to each model.

 Peasant wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
Well...hm. Is +3S +3A a "special rule", though? If that can be clarified, I'm convinced. I assumed that bit only covered things like Killing Blow and Frenzy and such.

I mean, even if it is true, it says "unless otherwise noted". Then the spell says it affects the model. And the character and the mount are considered one model.
If it said "the character gains +3S +3A", that'd be enough for me, hands-down, But it says model.

The "you can't apply the benefits twice" argument doesn't make a lick of sense to me. You could say, "hey, now you've got a total of +6S +6A, you've broken the rules". Or you could say, "you haven't applied the effects of this spell to all available aspects of the model, you've broken the rules".
If this argument is true, then Wildform works the same way.

Characters being the only ones that benefit from special rules--potentially winning argument.

Only apply the effects of a spell once to the target--doesn't look like it holds water.

I'm sorry I am having a little trouble following the text from this post so I apologize if I misunderstand.


First off you have answered the question already. 'The spell says it affects the model. And the......considered 1 model.' So why do you think you would get to add +3 twice to 1 model? Specifics of characters, mounts or anything else why would you apply it twice? Does that mean a single fireball gets to wound the model twice? No. It is a single model
Do you take Strength tests for the mount and the rider for Dwellers below?
Why wouldn't Wildform work the same way?
You cannot target a mount for damage why should you be able to target the model in a positive way?
You only apply the effects of every spell once to each model.

A spell that gives "every model in a unit +1s" gtants it to every stat line of a model. This is not a special rule,it is a stat buff.
His spell has a rule for targeting and then an effect. These are seperate and should jot be equated. The spell needs to target a characer model and then buffs the stat lines of the model. If it were a chariot, it would buff mounts, crew and character.

The basic rules ddon't change because the spell in question is OP.

Niteware wrote:

A spell that gives "every model in a unit +1s" gtants it to every stat line of a model. This is not a special rule,it is a stat buff.
His spell has a rule for targeting and then an effect. These are seperate and should jot be equated. The spell needs to target a characer model and then buffs the stat lines of the model. If it were a chariot, it would buff mounts, crew and character.

The basic rules ddon't change because the spell in question is OP.

Really?
Where did I miss that at? I didn't see anything that applies the bonus to every stat..
Though I may be inclined to agree that with a standard cavalry mount it may apply to both stats, I definitely disagree with monstrous mounts, chariots and similar models.
I can understand the simplicity of applying it this way though.

@Peasant: my point is that the model has two instances of Strength and Attacks. One could argue that you're not applying the bonuses twice; you're applying them once to each instance that occurs on that model.

Fireball, Dwellers, and the like all have specific rules when it comes to one model with multiple profiles.

And I'm not 100% on this, but I believe that in the case for any kind of mount, be it a horse, a Mournfang, an Exalted Seeker Chariot, or a Star Dragon, it and the character are treated as one model.
I think it is absurdly broken (beware the S7 A6 Skink Chief on his S9 A6 ancient Stegadon, accompanied by the S6 A4 Skink Handlers), but that doesn't stop it from being technically correct.

Warpsolution wrote:
@Peasant: my point is that the model has two instances of Strength and Attacks. One could argue that you're not applying the bonuses twice; you're applying them once to each instance that occurs on that model.

Fireball, Dwellers, and the like all have specific rules when it comes to one model with multiple profiles.

And I'm not 100% on this, but I believe that in the case for any kind of mount, be it a horse, a Mournfang, an Exalted Seeker Chariot, or a Star Dragon, it and the character are treated as one model.
I think it is absurdly broken (beware the S7 A6 Skink Chief on his S9 A6 ancient Stegadon, accompanied by the S6 A4 Skink Handlers), but that doesn't stop it from being technically correct.

I don't believe so.
Again for a standard cavalry mount I can see the application. I'm not really sure which way it goes but they are counted as one model so I can understand.
Monstrous mounts are not a single model. You can target either, through combat or randomly through shooting. There is no way that you would add +3 to both the empire commander and a griffon mount, they are 2 targets.
The spell texts states 'character'. the empire commander is the character and the griffon is the mount. Same applies to the skink on a stegadon. The skink gets +3 not the stegadon.
I'll have to look at the rules on chariots as well but I believe the application will be similar to that of the commander/griffon.

John Rainbow mentioned the confusion in the Character Mounts rules. I'm gonna try to put all that stuff up, see if we can make some more sense out of this:

"Character Mounts

...As a general rule, character mounts are broken down into four types:

- Cavalry
- Monstrous Cavalry
- Chariot
- Monster

A character and his mount are treated as a single character model for all rules purposes, except those stated below.

Cavalry
...if a character has a cavalry mount, the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'cavalry', and follows all the rules for both characters and cavalry models.

Monstrous Cavalry Mount
...the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'monstrous cavalry', and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models.

Chariot Mount
...the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'chariot', and follows all the rules for both characters and chariot models.

Ridden Monsters
"...the whole model is treated as having the troop type monster, and thus follows all the rules for both characters and monster models...

...While a cavalry model is treated as a single model for the purposes of hitting and wounding, a character and his ridden monster can be attacked separately...

Ridden Monsters and Special Rules
We assume that special rules that apply to a ridden monster do not normally also apply to character riding it, and vise versa (with the same exceptions that apply to cavalry models...p.82)..."

I think that proves it pretty clearly.