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Use a Chimera for mobile LoS blocking terrain. Use 2 or 3 if you need to.

Split them into two units of 5, attach an inquisitor to each unit with some nice gear and psychic powers, stuff them in chimeras.

Now you have two very shooty chimeras, throwing out a storm of re-rollable S5 shooting, and when the chimera dies, you have two tough units able to club non-termie infantry with both shooting and close combat.

Probably not the most efficient use of pts or inquisitors, but should be fun and at least in theory, doesn`t sound too horrible

Inquisitors from the new codex? Can't embark BB in your transports.

"The purpose is to discuss ways in which to better use the units that ARE taken."

This isn't Starcraft. GW has not taken the time to make sure each unit has appropriate counters and in turn provide counters.

Unfortunately, you can *not* bypass the question of whether a given unit should be fielded at all. The right answer may be to have the Ogryns gather dust. For the very reasons you yourself have enummerated.

evil inc,

ogryn advice

take a wall of lemen russes, 3 of em, block los to the ogryns and walk up behind them.

that seems to work well for covering my guard blobs out of LOS

chimeras work ok too, but the av 14 comes in handy as does the battle cannon

Martel732 wrote:
"The purpose is to discuss ways in which to better use the units that ARE taken."

This isn't Starcraft. GW has not taken the time to make sure each unit has appropriate counters and in turn provide counters.

Unfortunately, you can *not* bypass the question of whether a given unit should be fielded at all. The right answer may be to have the Ogryns gather dust. For the very reasons you yourself have enummerated.

While i agree that not all units are good and balanced, some people want to use some units for fluff, theme or other personal reasons. asking how best to do that is within the scope of this discussion. There's no reason we can't say "that unit is overpriced/underpowered, and i wouldn't recommend them. If you're dead set on using them, you might be best to ...." In a way it becomes a thought experiment, a tactical challenge. Most people understand how to best use an effective unit; it's usually not difficult (that's why they're effective) but the challenge will be using less effective units (in the case of this thread, CC units, as most are less effective than shooting units)

 EVIL INC wrote:
as much as you would like to come in and spout of that you know everything and tll players that they are not allowed to use certain units because you do not personally lik them, that is simply not the purpose of the thread.

He never did at any point suggest that he can force to any extent people to take any models. This is you getting wishy-washy because you are not getting your way, its petty and annoying and if you even intend for people to even begin to take you seriously you will stop with the whole victim, son of christ play.

There is a natural aura of negativity in this part of the forum and I can understand by all accounts how this may not please you but that doesn't mean you should barge in and expect people to automatically compensate because your feelings get hurt, and then call them out as being nasty people because of it.

The purpose is to discuss ways in which to better use the units that ARE taken.

This was not directly declared and by default in a tactics thread, one assumes that the discussion is based on the competitive scene where what to take is above and beyond significant than how to take predominantly.

Not to have someone tell them they cant take it because it is no good.

This was never said.

take my ogryn example, I spent a lot of money building those 10 guys and did an excellent job of painting them. Once in a while, I would like to use them just so the don't feel left out. I know that they are not the best assault units in the game so I don't need o read 12 pages of you telling me how stupid I am for using them in an army and how only a re^#$% like me would even consider using them.

This is a logical fallacy by appealing to nature and if you can't face the hard boiled facts in this part of the forum you should leave it, frankly.

We are all well aware of your personal feelings towards me and your overwhelming desire to insult and call me name at every opportunity.

This is insulting in its own right and also hypocritical within the length of the statement.

OP at time of posting:



I've bolded the parts you want to look back over to self reflect on.

But alas, adding to the discussion:

For CC the best real reliable units in my opinion are Flying Monstrous Creatures, units which also excel at shooting or a non-CC role or are exceptionally fast, deadly and hard to kill like Screamer/Seerstars. Terminators are way too easy to pepper in shooting and you lose points by the bucketload generally (GK's get around this by having shooting capability) even with Storm Shields as AP2 is now so easy to attain in high volumes.

I believe that CC is a strong supporting element to have in most lists but not feasible as an army theme.

you are right Armies based purely on close combat do not fare as well as previously. I have found that speed (including the flying monstrous creatures) is a BIG selling point for which units to take. Another is that we now see the more "rounded" options are becoming more used as they are being asked to shoot as well as assault or make shooting as part of the assault. (softening up a target themselves).
We are even seeing some items of wargear see use that rarely saw use before. For example, In previous editions bikes did not see a lot of actionas wargear taken by independent characters because of the dual toughness stats. Currently, you are seeing IC ride bikes a LOmore than before. Not only because it helps get them to the enemy faster but also because their actual toughness is increased to 5 protecting them from a lot of the insta kills they woulda got before. Even such small things like this CAN make a difference in who wins or loses a game. Well put in saying "I believe that CC is a strong supporting element to have in most lists but not feasible as an army theme." as it effectively expresses the role o close combat in any battle where the combatants have access to "guns". Even the bugs make use of "gus" and non-close combat effects to fill their arsenal.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Your quote appears to have been edited to say something that was never said and is breaking the rules f the forum in ragards to rule #1.

http://marticlan.info/images/evil.png
Really? Looks the same to me, edited to add bolding (which he mentioned and is perfectly allowed).
Mind pointing out what was altered?

If you mean his quote where he added responses, some people do that instead of multiple quotes - also perfectly fine. He isn't putting words in your mouth - he bolded his responses so you can tell the difference.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Your quote appears to have been edited to say something that was never said and is breaking the rules f the forum in ragards to rule #1.

you are right though. Armies based purely on close combat do not fare as well as previously. I have found that speed (including the flying monstrous creatures) is a BIG selling point for which units to take. Another is that we now see the more "rounded" options are becoming more used as they are being asked to shoot as well as assault or make shooting as part of the assault. (softening up a target themselves).
We are even seeing some items of wargear see use that rarely saw use before. For example, In previous editions bikes did not see a lot of actionas wargear taken by independent characters because of the dual toughness stats. Currently, you are seeing IC ride bikes a LOmore than before. Not only because it helps get them to the enemy faster but also because their actual toughness is increased to 5 protecting them from a lot of the insta kills they woulda got before. Even such small things like this CAN make a difference in who wins or loses a game. Well put in saying "I believe that CC is a strong supporting element to have in most lists but not feasible as an army theme." as it effectively expresses the role o close combat in any battle where the combatants have access to "guns". Even the bugs make use of "gus" and non-close combat effects to fill their arsenal.

So wait how do I use shooting as my codex is comprised of more close combat then magic and really hardly touches it? Sorry couldn't help jesting when saying close combat is supporting when my codex pretty much only has a few whips, magic powers, a skull cannon, and a giant daemonic beast that spits acid with the majority of the codex being close combat without even any shooting capabilities

Also I'd argue that for Orks shooting is supposed to be the support to their main weapons and even nids really use the guns as a support to soften the foe enough to make their assaults devestating. Then again, I am talking about the 3 most CC oriented armies.

Anyways yeah speed is the name of the game. Bikes that can scout, beasts, scout, infiltrate, FMC, slaanesh, speed hammers it in. Durability is another major point (Plague Marines are better in assault after turn two than Berzerkers and so PM are just better in the vast majority of ways) that, although not as important, really does get factored in. And then of course, blenderness. Too little and you get bloodletters, too much without speed or even durability and you get possessed.

Onto another note, my favorite army is daemons and I'm building a Tzeentch Khorne combo. My question comes from... how would you recommend to play Bloodletters? I've always tried them out yet they never really seems to be worth their price. They get mowed down if foot slogged and really don't pack much punch in cc nor do they really tank shots. I've been thinking of perhaps trying out some Khorne Dogs and give a herald a icon to charge into the enemy and plop them down to join in CC next turn. That being said, I'm still not sure if this will really make Bloodletters worth it. Also, any tips on Bloodcrushers? I've never once been able to play them successful (actually I do better with close combat pink horrors... that was fun).

 StarTrotter wrote:
Onto another note, my favorite army is daemons and I'm building a Tzeentch Khorne combo. My question comes from... how would you recommend to play Bloodletters? I've always tried them out yet they never really seems to be worth their price. They get mowed down if foot slogged and really don't pack much punch in cc nor do they really tank shots. I've been thinking of perhaps trying out some Khorne Dogs and give a herald a icon to charge into the enemy and plop them down to join in CC next turn. That being said, I'm still not sure if this will really make Bloodletters worth it. Also, any tips on Bloodcrushers? I've never once been able to play them successful (actually I do better with close combat pink horrors... that was fun).

Max sized unit walking across the table. Your opponent has to waste firepower on them, they won't break from shooting, and they're AP3 in assault. Combine that with some other, faster, threats and it's a recipe for some lovin fun.

rigeld2- What unit was that advice aimed at helping us more effectively us? I'm just not seeing how it helps me use my ogryn better. it almost appeared to be a totally off topic comment intended to instigate an argument.

Star, i'm assuming that your army is chaos. lol is it chaos marines or chaos daemons?
I honestly say that I have a lot of experience with chaos daemons so likely will not be able to help with them beyond say that they usually rip right through my army by materializing all oround it and blasting me with shots before assaulting to finish the job their following turn. From my perspective, with such a large number of multiwound models each with eternal warrior (even of the 'non character models", it is hard for even a guard army to do enough damage to prevent the inevitable. The best I could hope for was for units to land on me and have to roll on the mishap table.
From what I have seen personally, I would try to put them down in a position where as few of the enemy units have a los to them as possible. I would almost put my shooty units with only a few close combat units down on the first wave. This way, you can cause maximum damage with your own shooting before your hammerblow of assault daemons come in to mop up later. When they do come in, the few enemy that are left will hafta choose between the full strength assault guys or the shooters that have been ripping them up al along.
Like I said though, when I played chaos, the daemons codex wasn't out yet so i'm a novice at them at best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2- What unit was that advice aimed at helping us more effectively us? I'm just not seeing how it helps me use my ogryn better. it almost appeared to be a totally off topic comment intended to instigate an argument.

Star, i'm assuming that your army is chaos. lol is it chaos marines or chaos daemons?
I honestly say that I have a lot of experience with chaos daemons so likely will not be able to help with them beyond say that they usually rip right through my army by materializing all oround it and blasting me with shots before assaulting to finish the job their following turn. From my perspective, with such a large number of multiwound models each with eternal warrior (even of the 'non character models", it is hard for even a guard army to do enough damage to prevent the inevitable. The best I could hope for was for units to land on me and have to roll on the mishap table.
From what I have seen personally, I would try to put them down in a position where as few of the enemy units have a los to them as possible. I would almost put my shooty units with only a few close combat units down on the first wave. This way, you can cause maximum damage with your own shooting before your hammerblow of assault daemons come in to mop up later. When they do come in, the few enemy that are left will hafta choose between the full strength assault guys or the shooters that have been ripping them up al along.
Like I said though, when I played chaos, the daemons codex wasn't out yet so i'm a novice at them at best.

 EVIL INC wrote:
rigeld2- What unit was that advice aimed at helping us more effectively us? I'm just not seeing how it helps me use my ogryn better. it almost appeared to be a totally off topic comment intended to instigate an argument.

Not trying to instigate an argument at all. May I ask what unit your original comment was directed toward?
How about, in the future, you click the yellow warning triangle and report things to mods instead of passive aggressive complaints that you don't want to be corrected on.
I did comment on your Ogryns by the way - maybe you missed it.

 EVIL INC wrote:
rigeld2- What unit was that advice aimed at helping us more effectively us? I'm just not seeing how it helps me use my ogryn better. it almost appeared to be a totally off topic comment intended to instigate an argument.

I left, I stayed silent, I came back, I'm not happy with what I see here.
Now that we're all on the same page...

How the hell is advice about how to use a CC unit off topic?

 EVIL INC wrote:

The purpose is to discuss ways in which to better use the units that ARE taken.

You cannot possibly believe that this is off topic:

rigeld2 wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Onto another note, my favorite army is daemons and I'm building a Tzeentch Khorne combo. My question comes from... how would you recommend to play Bloodletters? I've always tried them out yet they never really seems to be worth their price. They get mowed down if foot slogged and really don't pack much punch in cc nor do they really tank shots. I've been thinking of perhaps trying out some Khorne Dogs and give a herald a icon to charge into the enemy and plop them down to join in CC next turn. That being said, I'm still not sure if this will really make Bloodletters worth it. Also, any tips on Bloodcrushers? I've never once been able to play them successful (actually I do better with close combat pink horrors... that was fun).

Max sized unit walking across the table. Your opponent has to waste firepower on them, they won't break from shooting, and they're AP3 in assault. Combine that with some other, faster, threats and it's a recipe for some lovin fun.

It's quite clearly advice on how to take a Daemons unit.

Evil Inc, we're sick and tired of you offing everyone who is not directly agreeing with you like a conformist monkey.

You may not be aware, but Dakkadakka is a forum for many people at once, and that this tactics sub-froum is for helping players other than yourself.

So get off your high horse, and post nicely, or gtfo.

@rigeld2 So perhaps a squad of flesh hounds and maybe some screamers of tzeentch... I was curious if maybe a herald riding a fleshound to the enemie's deployment to smash in 20 bloodletters in their face and then make them decide between them or the fleshounds would be a good choice. Anyways thanks. I think it doesn't help that my usual opponent is a hoardy tyranid player ap3 ain't so great when hitting armour saves of 6+ he he. Thanks for that (rarely get to play games anymore so really don't get many chances to test out new ideas anymore).

Yeah, I'm going to chime in here and give my opinion...because that's what you do on forums, you give your opinion.

First, I was wondering why this thread was so popular (so many replies) but I kept skipping over it because I don't need to be told how to make CC more viable. I solely play Tyranids. A race regarded as one of the few that have extremely lackluster shooting options.

Now I know why. I'm going to go out on a limb and agree with most of the other posters in this forum (Selym, rigeld2, etc): Shooting is far superior and more prevalent than melee units. This opinion, FWIW, isn't going so far to say that CC is useless. I've won my fair share of games with my Tyranids (which my most recent tournament TAC list includes a unit of genestealers and a Broodlord [highly regarded as one of the most amazing CC units in the game, but in 6th ed beaten down to a relatively useless unit]) almost solely on close combat, positioning, objective control, and strategic assaults.

With that being said: EVIL INC... After reading 14 pages of this useless thread that hasn't helped me in the slightest....I don't know you, I don't want to know you, and I hope to never meet you. You seem to be immature and seem to be instigating most of the "flaming" comments you've received by posting and/or not responding to the comments/challenges to provide evidence to support what seems to be your argument: "CC is not dead". The others who have, intelligently, chosen to leave this conversation at one point or another have proven time and time again that (while not "dead") melee is inferior to shooting in this present edition.

If anyone gets anything out of my post, I wish it to be this: The key to a successful army in a game of 40K is balance. While people have proven, shifting that balance towards shooting or assault winning is possible (and more often easier depending on your opponent) these same people open themselves up to weaknesses against other, otherwise unbalanced, armies. Most importantly of all, the point of this game of toy soldiers fighting each other in an alternate fictional reality is to have fun. Have fun in whatever way you define fun (in a competitive environment i.e. tournaments or casually with a group of friends in your garage).

With that, this is my first and last post in this thread that has wasted a good hour of my day....but being at work that made it go more quickly

you know, I had a huge post complete with quotes prepared to post here but I figure that we are ALL getting sick and tired of the attacks and trolling and sniping. with me trying to respond politely and respectfully. Instead of posting it, I am sending it to the culprets via PM. If you feel the need to respond, use that function instead of continuing to clutter the public area with your personal grievances that are not related to the threads at hand.

Roxor, That is their strawman that they are using. Not a single person has EVER said that shooting was not superior. I made that claim before they did. the reason the number of pages has not helped is because of the very people you mention purposely taking it off topic because it is not a topic that they wish to have discussed (at least in a thread started by anyone but themselves)
your mention of balance is another of the topics of strategy that I mentioned. Take your own bugs (tyranids) for example. They are not reknowned for shooting and are indeed not the best at it. I would not take it for granted that it was bad or not worth taking by any means. barrages, lance psybolts (if I remember correctly), Guns that are more effective the bigger the guy using them are. All of these combined with mass flyers and monstrous creatures all help to make the bugs very versatile and competitive.
My tip for you would be to concentrate on 2 strengths that 'match" or "cover" one another (and of course that you think are cool and like) and use them in concentration rather than try to be a jack of all trades.
never played a bug army but have faced them so take this with a grain of salt. maybe a few survivable big guys to start on the field (including a big winged guy who gives you +1 to first turn or chance to reroll to steal or whatever it does, I'm sure you know who I'm talking about), a tervigon or two to hold objectives and poop out spare troops and a couple guys to fire barrages or a dakkafex. Then have a overload of pods with a mix of hordy guys and big guys to overwhelm until the flyrant hits the lines and starts ripping new ones.

Just put EVIL on your ignore list. Your posting happiness will increase ten-fold, guaranteed!

Besides, the discussion is infinitely better without him anyways.

@roxor08

Tyranids should hopefully get a bump when the codex drops soon-ish. I'm hoping Orkz and Nids upset the balance a little for Eldar and Tau, but I won't hold my breath.

Just got PM'd this:

EVIL INC wrote:sorry if the whole thing does notaply to you, I copied/pasted a post and decided instead to send it to you this way. I don't know what personal issue you have with me just because I want to improve my game that you feel the need to follow me trolling and baiting doing your best to instigate arguments out of thin air but I can assure you I did not join the forum with arguing with you in mind.
Whatever your personal vendetta is against me, keep it to pm instead of spamming up threads (any of them) with the constant trolling and sniping where it is uncalled for and unneeded. I do not do that to you and expect you to not do it either...

rigeld2 wrote:
Not trying to instigate an argument at all. May I ask what unit your original comment was directed toward?
How about, in the future, you click the yellow warning triangle and report things to mods instead of passive aggressive complaints that you don't want to be corrected on.
I did comment on your Ogryns by the way - maybe you missed it.

rigeld2 wrote:
http://marticlan.info/images/evil.png
Really? Looks the same to me, edited to add bolding (which he mentioned and is perfectly allowed).
Mind pointing out what was altered?

If you mean his quote where he added responses, some people do that instead of multiple quotes - also perfectly fine. He isn't putting words in your mouth - he bolded his responses so you can tell the difference.

Nope, not a single solitary word on topic.

 Selym wrote:
I left, I stayed silent, I came back, I'm not happy with what I see here.
Now that we're all on the same page...

How the Edit-beep-Edit is advice about how to use a CC unit off topic?

he had not given advice. Did nbot even address the topic at hand speaking purely on his personal attacks. careful of language, there are children who read these forums and personally, I don't think they need to see members cursing out others willy nilly. And yes, myself discussing a possible way to use bloodletters more effectively is indeed on topic. of course, as a total novice with the new chaos daemon codex, I made sure to point out not to take my advice on hem t gospel.

 Selym wrote:

It's quite clearly advice on how to take a Daemons unit.

Evil Inc, we're sick and tired of you offing everyone who is not directly agreeing with you like a conformist monkey.
gtfo.

the post you quoted came from a different post. the one I was addressing simply is not the one you quoted at all.
I am not asking for anyone to conform to my opinions at all. that apprear to be your own bailiwick. you have made up your mind as to what will work and what will not and closed it to any other possibilities. The thread is not to parrot what you want to hear. it is for us to discuss how to better use assault oriented units that are chosen to be used by players. because you don't see the use of certain units as feasible from your own 'elevated position", you put down, insult and bait and troll until people are tired of arguing with you and move on letting you feel like you have "won"..

He's so adorable. Something about pots calling kettles black would apply here...

Anyways, why don't we just ignore him and move on?

Ignore away if on topic posts made by a rational person trying to improve their game/help others improve this bothers you. If it will finally get you to stay on topic and stop trolling, telling lies and trying to instigate arguments to derail threads, by all means, ignore whoever you lke.
Myself, I have an open mind so am willing to read/listen to anyone.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I like the idea of advancing a full unit of ogryn led by a inquisitor behind a bunch of chimeras. Actually sounds kinda fluffy and cimimatic in a way.

Would I be better off using empty chimeras (one for the ogryn and maybe one for the inquisitor if he can take a ransport.
or would I be better off using chimeras full of some sort of hooting unit to add some short range frepower? if the latter, what should I put in them? .

 StarTrotter wrote:
Onto another note, my favorite army is daemons and I'm building a Tzeentch Khorne combo.

Don't those two hate each other? I though Tzeentch was the one thing Khorne loathed above anything else. Or has the fluff changed since my day?

knas ser wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Onto another note, my favorite army is daemons and I'm building a Tzeentch Khorne combo.

Don't those two hate each other? I though Tzeentch was the one thing Khorne loathed above anything else. Or has the fluff changed since my day?

They still do. I was actually under the impression that something in the codex made it so they couldn't work together/join squads/be within a certain distance.

 Selym wrote:
Just got PM'd this:

EVIL INC wrote:sorry if the whole thing does notaply to you, I copied/pasted a post and decided instead to send it to you this way. I don't know what personal issue you have with me just because I want to improve my game that you feel the need to follow me trolling and baiting doing your best to instigate arguments out of thin air but I can assure you I did not join the forum with arguing with you in mind.
Whatever your personal vendetta is against me, keep it to pm instead of spamming up threads (any of them) with the constant trolling and sniping where it is uncalled for and unneeded. I do not do that to you and expect you to not do it either...

rigeld2 wrote:
Not trying to instigate an argument at all. May I ask what unit your original comment was directed toward?
How about, in the future, you click the yellow warning triangle and report things to mods instead of passive aggressive complaints that you don't want to be corrected on.
I did comment on your Ogryns by the way - maybe you missed it.

rigeld2 wrote:
http://marticlan.info/images/evil.png
Really? Looks the same to me, edited to add bolding (which he mentioned and is perfectly allowed).
Mind pointing out what was altered?

If you mean his quote where he added responses, some people do that instead of multiple quotes - also perfectly fine. He isn't putting words in your mouth - he bolded his responses so you can tell the difference.

Nope, not a single solitary word on topic.

 Selym wrote:
I left, I stayed silent, I came back, I'm not happy with what I see here.
Now that we're all on the same page...

How the Edit-beep-Edit is advice about how to use a CC unit off topic?

he had not given advice. Did nbot even address the topic at hand speaking purely on his personal attacks. careful of language, there are children who read these forums and personally, I don't think they need to see members cursing out others willy nilly. And yes, myself discussing a possible way to use bloodletters more effectively is indeed on topic. of course, as a total novice with the new chaos daemon codex, I made sure to point out not to take my advice on hem t gospel.

 Selym wrote:

It's quite clearly advice on how to take a Daemons unit.

Evil Inc, we're sick and tired of you offing everyone who is not directly agreeing with you like a conformist monkey.
gtfo.

the post you quoted came from a different post. the one I was addressing simply is not the one you quoted at all.
I am not asking for anyone to conform to my opinions at all. that apprear to be your own bailiwick. you have made up your mind as to what will work and what will not and closed it to any other possibilities. The thread is not to parrot what you want to hear. it is for us to discuss how to better use assault oriented units that are chosen to be used by players. because you don't see the use of certain units as feasible from your own 'elevated position", you put down, insult and bait and troll until people are tired of arguing with you and move on letting you feel like you have "won"..

I think Evil Inc. is trying to create a thread along the lines of: "ignoring criteria for unit selection, if you are using a particular unit anyway, how best to use it." Taken in that regard, it could make sense. For example, if someone wants to field Ogryns because they like the models, etc. then this thread could offer advice.

Unfortunately that was never the original stated purpose of the thread and there are a lot of useful things to be said about unit choice and the overall balance of shooting vs. CC units.

knas ser wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Onto another note, my favorite army is daemons and I'm building a Tzeentch Khorne combo.

Don't those two hate each other? I though Tzeentch was the one thing Khorne loathed above anything else. Or has the fluff changed since my day?

Khorne/Slaanesh
Nurgle/Tzeench

Are your demon hatreds.

But...doesn't Khorne despise sorcery and other magical nonsense?

Like an unbridled hatred? It may not be as a bad as his hate of Slaanesh, but certainly a serious rift in their chaotic relationship.

Historically, it was Khorne/slannesh that hated one another and tzeenthc/nurgle that did as well with khorne and tzeentch maintaining a distinct 'distrust".
I fondly remember the days of Rogue Trader when these meant more than they do now (although the daemon codex may have gone back towards that direction or altered the original alliances.

knas ser - you got the point of what I was trying to say (I feel they understand that and just enjoy what they are doing because they can get away with it anyway. Him posting that reminded me that I forgot to address the racial slurr he had made). "Last update was at 2013/11/29 14:49:31" shows that at that time, I altered the original post to better reflect the intentions of the thread. You will notice that this behavior did not stop at that time.

In the case of my ogryn. I spent a lot of money buying the models (not as much as I would have if I had bought the "official' metal ones) and I worked hard to convert the ripper guns. Whoda thunk getting the muzzlesbac onto the shortened barrels without it being obvous ould be so hard and fiddly/ I even magnetized the left arm of the bone head to switch off using a banner (I have a pic of some of them in my gallery). I really enjoy the look and "feel" of these guys and every once in a while, I just want to use them for the sake of them getting used. I am well aware, I would be better of using something else but i'm just not WAAC and wanna using something cool once in a while in a for fun game.

 Blacksails wrote:
But...doesn't Khorne despise sorcery and other magical nonsense?

Like an unbridled hatred? It may not be as a bad as his hate of Slaanesh, but certainly a serious rift in their chaotic relationship.

Well to be honest none of the chaos gods get along. All of them want power and tend to put aside disagreements to knock down the strongest (okay well it is confusing since daemons aren't really entities but they also are). Khorne distrusts Tzeentch but it is really Tzeentch/Nurgle as well as Slaanesh/Khorne. Khorne still hates psykers and all that (I never quite understood why he wouldn't like biomancy or pyromancy though....) just not as much as he hates Slaanesh. Along with that, the fluff openly expresses now that daemons will put aside their disengagements to pleasure in the slaughter (some fluff going on how a bloodcrusher tries to get a kill but slaanesh daemons always beat him to the punch until the end), Khorne is my friend's least favorite of the four gods, and I wanted to deploy something besides Tzeentch. I might like Tzeentch and all, but that means only a single troop choice, a single elite choice, a single fast choice, a single heavy choice (one which might I add is broken in a way it can't function), and then 3 named characters and two choices of hq. Also my favorite combat between shootingand CC is admittedly close combat. Also, although Slaanesh and Khorne hate eachother, there are warbands between the two. They just aren't that common. On another note, Lorgar is undivided and a psyker, Be'lakar is undivided and a psyker, etc.


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 EVIL INC wrote:
Historically, it was Khorne/slannesh that hated one another and tzeenthc/nurgle that did as well with khorne and tzeentch maintaining a distinct 'distrust".
I fondly remember the days of Rogue Trader when these meant more than they do now (although the daemon codex may have gone back towards that direction or altered the original alliances.

knas ser - you got the point of what I was trying to say (I feel they understand that and just enjoy what they are doing because they can get away with it anyway. Him posting that reminded me that I forgot to address the racial slurr he had made). "Last update was at 2013/11/29 14:49:31" shows that at that time, I altered the original post to better reflect the intentions of the thread. You will notice that this behavior did not stop at that time.

In the case of my ogryn. I spent a lot of money buying the models (not as much as I would have if I had bought the "official' metal ones) and I worked hard to convert the ripper guns. Whoda thunk getting the muzzlesbac onto the shortened barrels without it being obvous ould be so hard and fiddly/ I even magnetized the left arm of the bone head to switch off using a banner (I have a pic of some of them in my gallery). I really enjoy the look and "feel" of these guys and every once in a while, I just want to use them for the sake of them getting used. I am well aware, I would be better of using something else but i'm just not WAAC and wanna using something cool once in a while in a for fun game.

Actually the new codex has some limitations. To begin with, none of the daemons can mix with different gods no ifs stands or butts (same is true for CSM in terms of marked guys. Undivided/umarked can join any though). Second of all, there is a warpstorm table that will cause random things to occur. Out of 12 possible rolls (2d6), four of them are based on gods. For every enemy unit, they must roll a d6. On a 6, that unit will have the warp do some daemonic ethereal damage. Along with that, if the roll is of khorne, any of your own units that are slaanesh then they must also roll the d6. Same for Slaanesh, Khorne, and Tzeentch.

To be honest I can't say much on the Ogryns. Forgeworld might have something helpful but my best idea would be to make a mech guard or tank heavy army and march them from behind as a counterassault anti deepstrike behind to pop tanks guys and once close enough let them run out from behind.

EVIL INC wrote:Roxor, That is their strawman that they are using. Not a single person has EVER said that shooting was not superior. I made that claim before they did. the reason the number of pages has not helped is because of the very people you mention purposely taking it off topic because it is not a topic that they wish to have discussed (at least in a thread started by anyone but themselves)
your mention of balance is another of the topics of strategy that I mentioned.

I'm sorry, but how is this on topic?

Take your own bugs (tyranids) for example. They are not reknowned for shooting and are indeed not the best at it. I would not take it for granted that it was bad or not worth taking by any means. barrages, lance psybolts (if I remember correctly), Guns that are more effective the bigger the guy using them are. All of these combined with mass flyers and monstrous creatures all help to make the bugs very versatile and competitive.

Slight correction - there are no guns that get better the bigger you are. Unless you're talking about Brainleech Devourers in which case it's still inaccurate but I understand the confusion.

never played a bug army but have faced them so take this with a grain of salt. maybe a few survivable big guys to start on the field (including a big winged guy who gives you +1 to first turn or chance to reroll to steal or whatever it does, I'm sure you know who I'm talking about),

I know you said you'd never played them, but Nids have literally zero ability to manipulate the steal initiative roll. Please be correct when recommending units.

a tervigon or two to hold objectives and poop out spare troops and a couple guys to fire barrages or a dakkafex. Then have a overload of pods with a mix of hordy guys and big guys to overwhelm until the flyrant hits the lines and starts ripping new ones.

Mostly correct - the key to a Nid army is redundancy. Meaning you need at least 2 Troop Tervigons, a good amount of podded shooting (I prefer dakkafexes, some prefer Trygons that don't need a pod) and Biovores are amazing now.

 EVIL INC wrote:

My tip for you would be to concentrate on 2 strengths that 'match" or "cover" one another (and of course that you think are cool and like) and use them in concentration rather than try to be a jack of all trades.
never played a bug army but have faced them so take this with a grain of salt. maybe a few survivable big guys to start on the field (including a big winged guy who gives you +1 to first turn or chance to reroll to steal or whatever it does, I'm sure you know who I'm talking about), a tervigon or two to hold objectives and poop out spare troops and a couple guys to fire barrages or a dakkafex. Then have a overload of pods with a mix of hordy guys and big guys to overwhelm until the flyrant hits the lines and starts ripping new ones.

Maybe your browser is messed up and did not show the whole post. the part that you quoted was only a small part of it. So to help you out, I quoted the part that you were unable to.

"
Slight correction - there are no guns that get better the bigger you are. Unless you're talking about Brainleech Devourers in which case it's still inaccurate but I understand the confusion. "

This where my ignorance of the bug book shows. As I said, I was unsure of the exact guns. Iseem to remember (from older codexes) weapons that were based on the strength of the user and stuff like that so a (fleshborer as a random example because its just the first bug gun that comes to mind. ignore rules as this is only a make believe example to demonstrate the way I thought some of the bug guns worked) might be strength 3 when fired by a termagant but be strength 6 when fired by a carnifex, or have 2 shots when fired by the termagant but 4 shots when fired by the carnifex or some such. If there are no bug weaponslike that, My apologies.

"I know you said you'd never played them, but Nids have literally zero ability to manipulate the steal initiative roll. Please be correct when recommending units. '

As I said, I was unsure. I was under the impression there was a way to gv a tyrant some sort of special rule or that it came with one. Either on initiative, bonuses towards reserves rolls, something. If that is not the case, again, my apolgiesThe guy I was playing msta been cheating me because I toohim at his ord. I'm more worried about enjoying the game than spending the whole game quibbling. I just took him at his word and passed it on here without checking. My bad.

"Mostly correct - the key to a Nid army is redundancy. Meaning you need at least 2 Troop Tervigons, a good amount of podded shooting (I prefer dakkafexes, some prefer Trygons that don't need a pod) and Biovores are amazing now. "
Saying that must galed ya. Joking