Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So i have been watching lots of Batreps. I notiched something, Warmachine players tend to play nothing but infantry with on jack, most likely a light. I thought this game was about big stompy robots, but I see none of that, but Hordes have upwards of 4-5.

You´ve got it pretty much right. The names are somewhat misleading. You use hordes of dudes in Warmachine but a lot of living warmachines in Hordes.
That´s because of the difference between focus & fury.
But don´t worry as long as you pick the right caster you can easily play 3+ Jacks in one list.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So i have been watching lots of Batreps. I notiched something, Warmachine players tend to play nothing but infantry with on jack, most likely a light. I thought this game was about big stompy robots, but I see none of that, but Hordes have upwards of 4-5.

Not really. It's about combined arms. If you inky want giant robots, go play grind. Warjacks only make up the majority in the battle boxes. Beyond that, it's a face of combined arms. Warmachine factions generally rely on a sole backbone of infantry, backed by a number of jacks and support pieces. In the fluff, jacks are reasonably rare. Irusks 4th assault battalion has 20,000 infantry, and 80 warjacks. For whet it's worth, infantry have been a part of the game for as long as warjacks. It's deliberate.

Beyond this id make the argument that a reasonable number of jacks makes them stand out amongst the infantry. Another game is all but ruined by a ridiculous overemphasis on its space marines, which in the fluff are a miniscule percentage of what's going on, but unfairly dominate the numbers on the table top. A jack is meaningless when he is one of twelve. A jack stands out when he is one of two, and surrounded by infantry. Now, he has 'presence'.

In terms of the numbers you give, I think You're exaggerating a bit. Most factions only run a light? Really? Not in my experience - if you're running one jack, it's typically gonna be a heavy. Heavies are 'concentrated force' and are needed for heavy lifting, lights are typically for utility. Beyond that though, please bear in mind what gets run depends a lot on the caster and whatever support pieces are in play. Sone casters buck the trend and are fully capable of running jack heavy efficiently and effectively.

Khador is the most guilty faction in terms of running infantry at the expense of jacks, but even then there are no lights. Jacks in favour are the konquest (yes, I refuse to spell it with a c), spriggans and the character jacks. Although I've seen fair use of juggernauts and kodiaks in terms of their cheapness and focus efficiency too. So 1 - 2 heavies is the average, but usually just the one heavy.

With regard to the other factions, they're a bit more lenient. Again, you'll see a smattering of both heavies and lights. Cygnar most popular piece is arguably the stormwall, which is a colossal. Generally though, one to three, depending on caster. In General, two is probably accurate. Unless they take a colossal.

Then you have menoth and the convergence who are both fully capable of running jack phalanxes with their jack support. Again, you'll see everything from one to four, depending on the casters. And it's nit just lights either. Both factions gave excellent heavy warjacks and can run them extremely well.

With regard to hordes, the very nature of the fury mechanic requires a bigger investment in warbeasts than a warmachine faction needs to do with jacks. Five is excessive for most factions, but you'll typically see two or three heavies and a support light warbeast. I know with my kromac 50pt list, I've got a gorax(light), two warpwolves (heavy) and depending on how I'm feeling, more infantry or a third heavy. I've seen some lists (legion for example) go almost entirely beast, but most hordes builds do take a reasonable amount of infantry and support to back their beasts up.

'Jacks consume resources, Beasts produce them. When you can run your beasts over your casters FURY stat (albeit at a risk) you can't do it with 'Jacks. Basically additional 'Jacks just aren't doing to be given the love & attention they need to thrive, it just doesn't exist.

There are exceptions, Protectorate and Convergence run a good 'Jack game and a few Cygnar lists can too. If you want stompy robots look into those factions.

I've got a Reznik list that runs 4 Heavies or 3 Heavies + 2 Lights, depending on my mood. When I was playing pSevvy @ 35pts I'd often be running 20pts of 'Jacks (26, before counting WJP).

Your basic warmachine lists is made up of three parts: Your battlegroup (warcasters/warlock and their warjacks/warbeats), your infantry (ranging from rank and file to shock troops to specialists or auxiliaries) and your support crew (such as the choir of menoth).

The basic way I think that PP assumes most people will start playing warmachine at the battlebox level which ONLY has the battlegroup and then you will expand on your force by purchasing things for the other to two aspects of most forces. So you buy the cygnar battlebox and expand that by buying stormblade box and maybe the squire caster attachment. When you buy more warjacks you are more likely to replace jacks in striker battlegroup then add more to it.

Though most times I see only one warjacks period, a single light even is when people are playing things like eCaine who is a one man army caster, basically a warcaster that often finishes the match himself or they playing a infantry support caster like Irusk or they brought a colossal which is really 2-3 warjacks put together.

No heavies and one or two lights is popular with Cryx players. My guess is that alot of those batreps had alot of cryx.

Other warmachine factions do tend to run only 1-2 jacks. There are always exceptions but they tend to be few and far between.

But it is kind of an ironic running joke that the names of the 2 games are backwards.

 Mordekiem wrote:
No heavies and one or two lights is popular with Cryx players. My guess is that alot of those batreps had alot of cryx.

Other warmachine factions do tend to run only 1-2 jacks. There are always exceptions but they tend to be few and far between.

But it is kind of an ironic running joke that the names of the 2 games are backwards.

To be fair, its WARMACHINE (singular).

and the other ones are the wilderness HORDES.

might take some mental gymnastics, but you can make it fit!

Cryx, Khador, Retribution, and some Cygnar play infantrymachine regularly. As much as I like that infantry are viable options, it is a shame to see that multiple jacks are not. it appears mk2 failed to fix warjacks.

Yeah, because each jack is a drain on the resources of a warcaster, rather than a source for the resources of a warlock, it's a lot harder to run multiple jacks than multiple beasts. Warcasters get more powerful as their jacks die and they can use their own abilities again instead of fueling jacks, while a warlock loses their fury generation when their beasts die. That's not to say that no-one runs jacks. It might have been true in Mk. I, the source for the term 'infantrymachine,' but it's certainly not true now.

Cryx and Khador don't like running jacks -- their infantry is generally quite stellar, and their jacks are somewhat lackluster, barring their character jacks (Deathjack, Behemoth, Beast 09). Cryx in particular can run with just a deathchicken or two and infantry, as cryx casters like slinging spells and not giving support to jacks, unless you're playing Mortenebra.

Cygnar has a few casters that work well with lots of jacks (Kraye for one), but they mostly stick with one or two. The Stormwall has meant that Cygnar casters get a lot of mileage out of a small focus investment, so you often just run one Stormwall and no other jacks... or two Stormwalls.

Menoth will run on average more jacks then other main factions. Menoth has some amazing jacks (Reckoner, Avatar, Repenter, Redeemer, Vanquisher, Judicator) especially with Choir support. The choir's really the big thing here, as it makes Menoth jacks just stat better than most others, so focus is needed less for the beatdown.

Retribution usually runs only one or two. It's like Cryx and Khador, in that Ret has a lot of all-star infantry to work with, but Ret doesn't even have a stupid good character jack (Discordia is a nice workhorse but not a powerhouse, and Hypnos is only good with Ossyan). You'll most likely see just one Banshee or Phoenix unless it's pVyros or eVyros or something.

Cyriss runs a lot of jacks, but that's because a lot of rules were made to allow for Cyriss casters to run jacks with a limited amount of focus (Induction nodes). The fact that a whole rule allowing for radical efficiency with focus was needed for a true jack-centered faction to work out shows how much better the fury system innately is at running large stompy things than focus.

Moar Banez! contributes to Infantrymachine.

If the 2 systems were reversed (Warmachine having Fury/Hoards having Focus) would you complain about Hordes being Infantry Spam with only a few Beasts?

 Thariinye wrote:
Cryx and Khador don't like running jacks -- their infantry is generally quite stellar, and their jacks are somewhat lackluster, barring their character jacks (Deathjack, Behemoth, Beast 09). Cryx in particular can run with just a deathchicken or two and infantry, as cryx casters like slinging spells and not giving support to jacks, unless you're playing Mortenebra.

I disagree about the lackluster jacks for Cryx and Khador. They have some of the better jacks in my opinion. It is just the infantry and warcasters are even better.

And I am not really sure the Menoth ones are really any more amazing. It is the Menoth support that is amazing. Take away the choir and other support and Menoth will run as few jacks as anyone else and most of them will look pretty mediocre.

TBH i dont like it either way. IMO part of the lure, and even a core part of the setting is Warjacks. But it sucks that there are so few.

Honestly there are perfectly viable builds that go jack heavy, especially in Menoth. I kind of like that you see so few jacks because I think most warjacks look absolutely ridiculous and could never support their own weight on those tiny little legs that they have, and on the whole I like the look of Privateer's infantry a whole lot better so I have no issue with 'infantrymachine'. I can totally understand where you're coming from though, if jacks are the lure for you it's almost like a tease.

Khador are given more Jacks with Bulldoze in order to cope with infantrymachine. It's a start.

But I always bring more than ''one light''. WIth Menoth, at the very least, a Heavy and a Light, usually the Blessing. I'm a big fan of arcnodes, but not so much of the Guardian, which is a tad too expansive for my taste.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
TBH i dont like it either way. IMO part of the lure, and even a core part of the setting is Warjacks. But it sucks that there are so few.

Part of the problem is that your Warcaster can't do his spell casting if he's filling his jacks up, while a Warlock needs to do something with his Fury so he can control his beasts next turn.

The solution could be to increase the FOCUS stat of Warcasters, but then you have the problem of making them harder to hurt at full camp(most can push Arm22+ quite easily as it is)


I think Warjacks themselves could use a buff. Maybe give all Jacks in their caster's control area the same Bonus that a Jack Marshal gives them(and make the Jack Marshal bonus better as well)

If all jacks could run or charge for "free" or could buy/boost a single attack without any focus input there would be a little more incentive to take Jacks.

Beasts have more Fury than Jacks can get Focus, and can be forced beyond their Warlock's abilities, but Jacks(being steam powered) can do a few things for free.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
TBH i dont like it either way. IMO part of the lure, and even a core part of the setting is Warjacks. But it sucks that there are so few.

Part of the problem is that your Warcaster can't do his spell casting if he's filling his jacks up, while a Warlock needs to do something with his Fury so he can control his beasts next turn.

The solution could be to increase the FOCUS stat of Warcasters, but then you have the problem of making them harder to hurt at full camp(most can push Arm22+ quite easily as it is)


I think Warjacks themselves could use a buff. Maybe give all Jacks in their caster's control area the same Bonus that a Jack Marshal gives them(and make the Jack Marshal bonus better as well)

If all jacks could run or charge for "free" or could buy/boost a single attack without any focus input there would be a little more incentive to take Jacks.

Beasts have more Fury than Jacks can get Focus, and can be forced beyond their Warlock's abilities, but Jacks(being steam powered) can do a few things for free.

I personally feel that the Field Marshal ability should really be utilized more- it would allow all casters to give 'Jacks a unique ability, but wouldn't be a blanket buff like you are describing. That, and give Jack Marshals more cool abilities.

For example, there is Krayes "All Jacks are Cavalry" ability, which opens up his use of Jacks a lot, or the Gunmage UA's Runeshot.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
TBH i dont like it either way. IMO part of the lure, and even a core part of the setting is Warjacks. But it sucks that there are so few.

Butcher, and doom reavers got me into it. To be fair, jacks are rare. Irusks 4th assault battalion has 20,000 infantry and 80 jacks. Even strikers storm brigade has only something like 300 jacks (heavy and light) amongst over ten thousand infantry.

The very first publication of the iron kingdoms - the witch fire trilogy had 2 jacks play a role. One fell off a ship and sank into a river, and the other broke down a wall.

Imo it doesn't 'suck'. Although I would like to see better ways to run jack heavy for the folks that do, I don't want it to come at the cost of screwing over folks that want to play infantry heavy. I don't want the game to be only about jacks, or even mostly about jacks. Another game is all but ruined by an overemphasis on its iconic group of warriors. Space marines. In the fluff, they're a miniscule percentage of what goes on. On the tabletop, they outsell everything else combined. 40k is all about this one group, and with most of the fiction, codices and rules being all about space marines, every other faction suffers, and space marines ironically become the generic average, when thru should instead standout and be awesome. I feel the same with regard to jacks. A jack gets lost when he is one of a dozen on the field. When he is one of a handful of behemoths striding across the battlefield, head and torso above every other mook, he stands out. He's got 'presence' that simply can't be denied, the alternative is to lose him in the crowd.

Grey Templar wrote:

Part of the problem is that your Warcaster can't do his spell casting if he's filling his jacks up, while a Warlock needs to do something with his Fury so he can control his beasts next turn.
The solution could be to increase the FOCUS stat of Warcasters, but then you have the problem of making them harder to hurt at full camp(most can push Arm22+ quite easily as it is)
I think Warjacks themselves could use a buff. Maybe give all Jacks in their caster's control area the same Bonus that a Jack Marshal gives them(and make the Jack Marshal bonus better as well)
If all jacks could run or charge for "free" or could buy/boost a single attack without any focus input there would be a little more incentive to take Jacks.
Beasts have more Fury than Jacks can get Focus, and can be forced beyond their Warlock's abilities, but Jacks(being steam powered) can do a few things for free.

As you say, it's ''a" solution, not the best one though. Warcasters are about resource management. A huge pool of focus puts the lie to this. Moat focus doesn't solve the problem, and really just imbalances the system. Same with running and charging for free.It's having your cake and eating it. For free. You don't "pay" to get this buff- As you yourself say, they gain an advantage they don't need. And it costs nothing.

Direct comparisons between jacks and beasts are not really fair though. Beasts do more, but they're needed more too. They cost more, you need to take proportionally more in your army,, and on top of that you have frenzy. You can't just cast all your spells, and run all your beasts hot. Otherwise you lose transfers and you risk losing most of your units next turn - I've seen it happen. Beasts/fury has huge advantages, but you have to manage both carefully - both warlocks and warbeasts are the limiting factor, and provide checks and balances to each other. Beyond that, the loss of a beast is far more crippling than the loss of a jack. Kill a jack, and you've killed a heavy hitter. Kill a beast, and you've killed a heavy hitter/fury generator/ wound sink/ and an animus.

The convergence have a thing where each caster is also a field Marshall that gives a buff automatically to their jacks. Could it be rolled our for everyone? Potentially. But it's stealing their thunder.

Personally, I maintain changes to the jack Marshall rules to allow for more effective use of jack Marshalls, and more battlegroup support pieces is the way forward. Like the choir or arcanists. You pay to make your jacks better. But they're better, and help making a larger battlegroup more efficient and less unwieldy to use.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
I personally feel that the Field Marshal ability should really be utilized more- it would allow all casters to give 'Jacks a unique ability, but wouldn't be a blanket buff like you are describing. That, and give Jack Marshals more cool abilities.

For example, there is Krayes "All Jacks are Cavalry" ability, which opens up his use of Jacks a lot, or the Gunmage UA's Runeshot.

I can easily get on board with these suggestions.

They are not making changes to basic game mechanics in the next expansion are they?

J0kerrMT wrote:
They are not making changes to basic game mechanics in the next expansion are they?

Nope. They might bring in a few new casters, a few new jacks and solos for each faction, but they won't, say, change the rules for how cavalry works.

Worth pointing out: Just because most armies don't have a lot of jacks, doesn't mean they don't matter.

A heavy jack, fully-loaded with focus, will still kill or cripple most things in the game.

In MK3 they might or might not

What I would suggest is that Jack Marshals don't remove the Jack from the primary Battlegroup

So the Warcaster can still give his Focus to the Jacks that are Marshaled and Battlegroup spells still affect them

But all the normal Jack Marshal rules about the Jack Marshals 'unofficial' focus would still apply

 Talamare wrote:
In MK3 they might or might not

What I would suggest is that Jack Marshals don't remove the Jack from the primary Battlegroup

So the Warcaster can still give his Focus to the Jacks that are Marshaled and Battlegroup spells still affect them

But all the normal Jack Marshal rules about the Jack Marshals 'unofficial' focus would still apply

Oh God... I would LOVE this... it would make my Sword Knights/Centurion combo that much more devastating.

 Talamare wrote:
In MK3 they might or might not

What I would suggest is that Jack Marshals don't remove the Jack from the primary Battlegroup

So the Warcaster can still give his Focus to the Jacks that are Marshaled and Battlegroup spells still affect them

But all the normal Jack Marshal rules about the Jack Marshals 'unofficial' focus would still apply

This could be interesting.

Oh, for obvious reasons tho if it happens. You will need to add a rule that limits JMs to a single J...

The problem with that is under the current system you get the question "why not marshall?". If JMs retain their drives and unless Warcasters get drives there will be no reason not to marshall a jack which would make a unit or model with JM mandatory (since you're going to have at least one free jack). It would raise the utility of JMs but not necessarily push Warmachine away from massed infantry, only change the composition of said infantry.

I think that there is a need to make jacks on average more efficient in and of themselves that is needed to increase their presence. Making them dependent on a certain type of unit (that not every faction has great variety in) is in and of itself risky. Targeting JM is easy/obvious, but not necessarily right.
(But on the subject, what if JMs gave between 0-2 point discount on their marshalled jack depending on how good a marshall they are. 0 for those that currently get taken as marshall and 2 for those the never see the table top?)

Altering the way 'casters discount jacks may do it. If you get discount from the caster but aren't allowed to put all those eggs in the same basket may result in more jacks - although at the same time it may just result in more Light Jack spam (poor Khador).

I feel that PP could adjust the balance of the game by adding more jack support to every faction and finding a way to fit warjack bonds (the ones from the back of Prime) into competitive play. Reducing infantry's ability to jam and their scenario presence in steamroller would also place more emphasis on jacks and beasts. They would have to give jacks more support before they changed SR much though, else hordes would run rampant in tournaments.

 Mahtamori wrote:
The problem with that is under the current system you get the question "why not marshall?". If JMs retain their drives and unless Warcasters get drives there will be no reason not to marshall a jack which would make a unit or model with JM mandatory (since you're going to have at least one free jack). It would raise the utility of JMs but not necessarily push Warmachine away from massed infantry, only change the composition of said infantry.

Because it still cost points to do so

+2 Points per Jack adds up

Menoth and Skorne only pays a total of 2 for all their Jacks/Beasts
If you want 3 Jacks all Marshaled it means 6 extra points

It would mean tho that some JMs that are clearly too good would need to be rebalanced