Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't know what you're going up against, but in my experience Taudar excel at killing MCs, especially if they only have 3+ armour and no invulns.

2-3 squads of pathfinders
6 broadsides
2-3 squads of fire warriors
giant mob of sniper kroot
ethereal
2 riptides
skyray

that's the general lowdown

Just throw out two tervigons and two tyrannos beside a walking tyrant and go laugh at tau with me.

 Brometheus wrote:

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
You need to focus on secondary objectives and then contesting the primary objectives your opponent holds.

I agree. 1-0 is a win just like 8-0.

not in a tournament setting.

another rule new (and some experenced) people fail at....

If your in range with your guns, and dont want to get into assult.... dont move closer! all the time i see newbs, who are in range, in line of sight, with a clean straight shot move closer for no reason!

 ductvader wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't know what you're going up against, but in my experience Taudar excel at killing MCs, especially if they only have 3+ armour and no invulns.

2-3 squads of pathfinders
6 broadsides
2-3 squads of fire warriors
giant mob of sniper kroot
ethereal
2 riptides
skyray

that's the general lowdown

Just throw out two tervigons and two tyrannos beside a walking tyrant and go laugh at tau with me.

That is not a very good tau list TBH. replace the ethereal and skyray with a shas'o and bodygaurd+ maybe a crisis squad, and you have something actually worth it (although the two riptides is pretty mean).

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Aijec wrote:
2. Losing focus on the games objectives, it's never ALL about killing. I see people start gunning for objectives turn 4 and really get punished for poor planning all.the.time.

I'm guilty of this. I lost to HulkSmash this past NOVA because I got caught up killing his troops.

Speaking of HulkSmash reminds me that DashofPepper always said the best play is to table your opponent, and everything else falls into place.

Because that's usually true.

People who build lists to take objectives lose to people who build lists to table their opponent. Even if you don't manage the table, it's a lot easier to place a few scoring units on objectives at the very end of the game if your opponent's stuff is mangled beyond reason than it is otherwise.

The mistake here is that people think objectives are important. At most, they're only important AT THE END OF THE GAME, and given how easy it is to force most games onto secondary objectives (where those tabling armies will be at a big advantage), they're not even, strictly speaking, very necessary at all.

Losing a game at the last moment on objectives means you didn't kill enough during turns 1-5, not that you made mistakes in the movement phase, or whatever.

 Ailaros wrote:
Because that's usually true.

People who build lists to take objectives lose to people who build lists to table their opponent. Even if you don't manage the table, it's a lot easier to place a few scoring units on objectives at the very end of the game if your opponent's stuff is mangled beyond reason than it is otherwise.

The mistake here is that people think objectives are important. At most, they're only important AT THE END OF THE GAME, and given how easy it is to force most games onto secondary objectives (where those tabling armies will be at a big advantage), they're not even, strictly speaking, very necessary at all.

Losing a game at the last moment on objectives means you didn't kill enough during turns 1-5, not that you made mistakes in the movement phase, or whatever.

This isn't true for everyone.

It's solid advice for my Mechdar who need to focus on target priority up until turn 3/4.

But my horde Tyranids and infantry GKs must have objectives in mind the entire game in order to manuevre themselves past/through/away from the enemy in order to be in the perfect place on turn 5.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't know what you're going up against, but in my experience Taudar excel at killing MCs, especially if they only have 3+ armour and no invulns.

I hear S 7 spam is pretty good for this.......

Taking dakka terminators

Underestimating how many melee hits a combined squad of 3 IG infantry squads will actually land. Just because they are guardsmen doesn't mean you should take 10 non-melee specialesed MEQ and charge them. Especially if they have a commisar (which they will because duh).

Martel732 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't know what you're going up against, but in my experience Taudar excel at killing MCs, especially if they only have 3+ armour and no invulns.

I hear S 7 spam is pretty good for this.......

It takes something like 91 TL BS4 S7 shots to kill a squad of 3 FnP Carnifexes.

It's not great.

 ductvader wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't know what you're going up against, but in my experience Taudar excel at killing MCs, especially if they only have 3+ armour and no invulns.

I hear S 7 spam is pretty good for this.......

It takes something like 91 TL BS4 S7 shots to kill a squad of 3 FnP Carnifexes.

It's not great.

But do the math for demon princes and the like. Your example is a bit extreme, imo.

Martel732 wrote:
Your example is a bit extreme, imo.

I don't see why, it's three relatively expensive MCs for Tyranids for their output; I was giving Tau an easy one. This can be done for much cheaper and with many more shenanigans like Primes or Iron Armed Tyrants.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't know what you're going up against, but in my experience Taudar excel at killing MCs, especially if they only have 3+ armour and no invulns.

2-3 squads of pathfinders
6 broadsides
2-3 squads of fire warriors
giant mob of sniper kroot
ethereal
2 riptides
skyray

that's the general lowdown

Just throw out two tervigons and two tyrannos beside a walking tyrant and go laugh at tau with me.

That is not a very good tau list TBH. replace the ethereal and skyray with a shas'o and bodygaurd+ maybe a crisis squad, and you have something actually worth it (although the two riptides is pretty mean).

A lot of GT winning lists that look a lot like the one above would disagree with you.

ductvade wrote:But my horde Tyranids and infantry GKs must have objectives in mind the entire game in order to manuevre themselves past/through/away from the enemy in order to be in the perfect place on turn 5.

How are you getting foot hordes onto objectives on the other side other side of the table? A combination of 6th ed's cover and from-the-front wound allocation should be killing any chances of that.

Perhaps you're playing against opponents who aren't bringing enough killing power. In that case, where you're both focusing on objectives, rather than killing stuff, then objectives will be more important. The moment you come up against a gunline player who easily wipes half your army off the table in the first two turns, and you struggle for any relevancy whatsoever, much less advancing on anything, then you'll see just how futile it is to play objectives vs. someone playing killing power.

Not even to mention, again, just how easy it is to avoid letting the game come down to objectives...

 Ailaros wrote:

ductvade wrote:But my horde Tyranids and infantry GKs must have objectives in mind the entire game in order to manuevre themselves past/through/away from the enemy in order to be in the perfect place on turn 5.

How are you getting foot hordes onto objectives on the other side other side of the table? A combination of 6th ed's cover and from-the-front wound allocation should be killing any chances of that.

By utilizing a fair portion of other 6th Ed rules that allow me to stay alive longer.

New night fighting, can't kill a model you can't see, and a hearty combination of reserves, scare tactics, and general intelligence.

 Ailaros wrote:
How are you getting foot hordes onto objectives on the other side other side of the table? A combination of 6th ed's cover and from-the-front wound allocation should be killing any chances of that.

By bringing more units than my opponent has shooting. I need one single scoring body in range of an objective to own it which means if you fail to completely kill it with one of your units you have to waste an entire other unit firing on it.
Tabling armies *have* to shoot for overkill every time. That's harder than you're pretending it is.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
How are you getting foot hordes onto objectives on the other side other side of the table? A combination of 6th ed's cover and from-the-front wound allocation should be killing any chances of that.

By bringing more units than my opponent has shooting. I need one single scoring body in range of an objective to own it which means if you fail to completely kill it with one of your units you have to waste an entire other unit firing on it.
Tabling armies *have* to shoot for overkill every time. That's harder than you're pretending it is.

Indeed.

I have personally only been tabled once...and that was by Bill Kim (Centurian99)

I've been tabled a few times - normally on Turn 6 or 7 on a shooting gallery board (no BLoS) where I took a non-optimized list.

ductvader wrote:scare tactics, and general intelligence.

rigeld2 wrote:By bringing more units than my opponent has shooting.

Boy, I wish I had your opponents...

Playing the tabling style wins game, playing the objectives wins tournaments.

Its comically easy for certain armies to hide MSU scoring units out of LOS and snag victory from the jaws of defeat at the end of the game, especially with the choice to go second. Even more true in tournaments where you can get an accurate gauge of game end due to time constraints.

 Ailaros wrote:
Boy, I wish I had your opponents...

Perhaps you just need to familiarize yourself with winning ideologies.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:By bringing more units than my opponent has shooting.

I once won 1st in an Ard Boyz qualifier with about 2300-2400 pts of my army destroyed...I believe I killed about 75ish pts of his army and won the game by massacre because I held all of the objectives except for one he was contesting.

The crazy time limit thing in tournaments really changes things.

 Ailaros wrote:

ductvader wrote:scare tactics, and general intelligence.

rigeld2 wrote:By bringing more units than my opponent has shooting.

Boy, I wish I had your opponents...

Sure, it's my opponents fault that they can't kill every unit on the table in 2 turns. That's the absolute truth and there's no possibility that things like "Line of Sight" or "rolling" or "list building" come into it whatsoever.

It does seem like a low tabling count. I got tabled more than that with BA in 3rd edition.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't know what you're going up against, but in my experience Taudar excel at killing MCs, especially if they only have 3+ armour and no invulns.

2-3 squads of pathfinders
6 broadsides
2-3 squads of fire warriors
giant mob of sniper kroot
ethereal
2 riptides
skyray

that's the general lowdown

Just throw out two tervigons and two tyrannos beside a walking tyrant and go laugh at tau with me.

That is not a very good tau list TBH. replace the ethereal and skyray with a shas'o and bodygaurd+ maybe a crisis squad, and you have something actually worth it (although the two riptides is pretty mean).

A lot of GT winning lists that look a lot like the one above would disagree with you.

This is just my experience, playing with and against tau. The skyray is a great unit, but broadsides with velocity trackers can serve it's role, and more. Commanders are great units, very scary, and can be made nigh invincible, thus can soak up a lot of damage. Crisis team can serve many roles, as well as being maneuverable.

Clumping. Easily the most common mistake I see experienced players make.

I think its because some very good players are acolytes of Mathhammer and beleive that what "should" happen when their unit arrives will protect them or they just are over confident. Bad players do it becasue they are just not really paying attention.

I see a lot off people forgetting that they can move backwards not jusr forward

 Griddlelol wrote:
The biggest mistake that I see regularly is lack of focus fire.

Depending on my target, focus fire is sometimes not the best tool. Sometimes it's better to force as many break tests as possible.

Lets say someone has a white scars biker army. Their back bikes are roughly 6" from their board edge, and they have a bunch of 5 man squads.

Its better to kill 2 members from 5 squads than it is to wipe out 2 squads. The reason is that each squad has a 27.77% to fail a LD9 check, which would result in them running off the board. So your going to overall cause more damage by forcing those multiple leadership tests.

Any back line unit with a LD of 8 or less that is in risk of running off the board is vulnerable to this trick. I just used the white scars to illustrate the point. You can replace white scars with long fangs, kroot, etc...

 labmouse42 wrote:
Depending on my target, focus fire is sometimes not the best tool. Sometimes it's better to force as many break tests as possible.

You're entirely correct. I was advocating use of focussing on those in weaker, or no cover rather than annihilating single units.

However, if I'm teaching someone, I'll generally tell them to focus down a unit before moving onto another. Your post is a perfect example of "intermediate level" game play. The point at which you know enough rules to consider alternative strategies.

Funnily enough White Scars are a great example. 3d6 fall back for troops is hilarious to exploit.

Being kited. Just because you have CC unit doesn't mean you have to charge it forward at the nearest target. I've seen world class players do this compulsively.